105 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

MrMadguy, on 29 February 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

No, my stats, I provided in this thread too, prove my theory too. My performance - is 200dmg and 600XP per match. My survival rating - is just 17%. I die very early in most matches and don't contribute anything towards victory. But my W/L is still the same 1, as it was during Open Beta, when all my matches were like this:

Spoiler

I was carrying matches in the past and I'm being carried now and it's obvious. And if I was carrying then and I'm being carried now - then W/L has nothing to do with skill and performance. And if W/L has nothing to do with skill and performance - then PSR is complete mess, that isn't better, then random matchmaking. And if PSR is almost random matchmaking - then all obviously unbalanced games are caused by it.

You may continue ignoring clear evidence for as long, as you want. Truth won't turn into false, if you will ignore it. I really hope, I will finally quit this game on this Wednesday. And I hope, that this time I'll never return.

your personal stats don't prove anything either, that's my point. Your personal stats, if I had to take a wold guess, are less than 1% of the total population's stats. It's purely anecdotal. That's my point.

You can't base sweeping declarations regarding balance based on something like that because while you personally may encounter a certain result more commonly, that doesn't mean it's indicative of the thousands of other players and hundreds of thousands of other matches played. That's all I'm pointing out

[MrMadguy]

Sandpit, on 29 February 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

your personal stats don't prove anything either, that's my point. Your personal stats, if I had to take a wold guess, are less than 1% of the total population's stats. It's purely anecdotal. That's my point.

You can't base sweeping declarations regarding balance based on something like that because while you personally may encounter a certain result more commonly, that doesn't mean it's indicative of the thousands of other players and hundreds of thousands of other matches played. That's all I'm pointing out

I don't care. It takes hours to grind 3K XP. It's nonsense, sorry. Unplayable nonsense. And I shouldn't care and even know, why it happens. Every other ordinal player doesn't want and doesn't have to know anything about matchmaking - he would have simply quited long time ago. I'm still here, because I care. I care about players, who are being scammed via this roguish scheme: to pull them in via great gameplay at first, excite them enough to make them invest enough money into this game and then simply force them quit via making game unplayable for them. I have given another chance to this game and returned after long brake two months ago. It failed to use this chance.

Edited by MrMadguy, 29 February 2016 - 11:15 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

MrMadguy, on 29 February 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

No, my stats, I provided in this thread too, prove my theory too. My performance - is 200dmg and 600XP per match. My survival rating - is just 17%. I die very early in most matches and don't contribute anything towards victory. But my W/L is still the same 1, as it was during Open Beta, when all my matches were like this:

I was carrying matches in the past and I'm being carried now and it's obvious. And if I was carrying then and I'm being carried now - then W/L has nothing to do with skill and performance. And if W/L has nothing to do with skill and performance - then PSR is complete mess, that isn't better, then random matchmaking. And if PSR is almost random matchmaking - then all obviously unbalanced games are caused by it.

You may continue ignoring clear evidence for as long, as you want. Truth won't turn into false, if you will ignore it. I really hope, I will finally quit this game on this Wednesday. And I hope, that this time I'll never return.

We will start to listen when you have grasped basic statistics, science and user research. Just the basics. As long as your "proof" doesn't live up to the basics, we will know to ignore it. The conclusions might be true, but we cannot trust it.

And you never addressed the possibility of snowballing being the cause of your results. Snowballing can explain every data you have provided.

If your W/L was 1 then it worked as intended. Having it at exactly 1 is the goal. Also, how is your survival rate relevant to this conversation in any way. I also rarely survive. Doesn't mean I didn't do my part when I was still kicking, often doing the pushes and so on. That doesn't mean I was carried, it just means my contribution included tanking, something PSR does not measure.

[Savage Wolf]

MrMadguy, on 29 February 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

I don't care. It takes hours to grind 3K XP. It's nonsense, sorry. Unplayable nonsense. And I shouldn't care and even know, why it happens. Every other ordinal player doesn't want and doesn't have to know anything about matchmaking - he would have simply quited long time ago. I'm still here, because I care. I care about players, who are being scammed via this roguish scheme: to pull them in via great gameplay at first, excite them enough to make them invest enough money into this game and then simply force them quit via making game unplayable for them. I have given another chance to this game and returned after long brake two months ago. It failed to use this chance.

If you think that PGI purposefully would try to ruin their own business with such a terrible business model then you are mistaken. They have to keep people invested for at long as possible to be able to pay the bills. If they don't succeed it's not intentional. If they fail, it's because they are inexperienced (Which they appear to be).
All in all, it appears that you simply have chosen the wrong game to focus on. One that does not really suit you. But since you have already invested so much in it you really wish it could just be fixed, that it was just matchmaking and it would get better. Because you don't enjoy the game, it feels like a grind.
It cannot be fixed, I'm sorry.

[MrMadguy]

Savage Wolf, on 29 February 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

If you think that PGI purposefully would try to ruin their own business with such a terrible business model then you are mistaken. They have to keep people invested for at long as possible to be able to pay the bills. If they don't succeed it's not intentional. If they fail, it's because they are inexperienced (Which they appear to be).
All in all, it appears that you simply have chosen the wrong game to focus on. One that does not really suit you. But since you have already invested so much in it you really wish it could just be fixed, that it was just matchmaking and it would get better. Because you don't enjoy the game, it feels like a grind.
It cannot be fixed, I'm sorry.

This is what actually happened with me: game was great for first year of playing (think about it, as about being in current Tier 5 and 4) and now in Tier 3 it's unplayable. And I think, that every new player experiences exactly the same thing. It's not bad business model - it's actually very smart one. They know, how much money they can expect every player to invest till the moment, when he will become too bored to invest more. And they don't need free players in their game to load their servers. It's better to have 2K players, who pay for every single 'Mech pack, than 2M, that don't pay at all.

[Savage Wolf]

MrMadguy, on 29 February 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

This is what actually happened with me: game was great for first year of playing (think about it, as about being in current Tier 5 and 4) and now in Tier 3 it's unplayable. And I think, that every new player experiences exactly the same thing. It's not bad business model - it's actually very smart one. They know, how much money they can expect every player to invest till the moment, when he will become too bored to invest more. And they don't need free players in their game to load their servers. It's better to have 2K players, who pay for every single 'Mech pack, than 2M, that don't pay at all.

No it isn't. Whales don't pay for dead games. Free players are content for people who spend money. They need those 2M players if they want to have 2K whales. And happy whales keep on spending. I didn't stop spending money on LOL after the first year, I'm still spending when I see a cool skin. But only as long as it's fun to play and that requires players to play against.

[MrMadguy]

Savage Wolf, on 29 February 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

No it isn't. Whales don't pay for dead games. Free players are content for people who spend money. They need those 2M players if they want to have 2K whales. And happy whales keep on spending. I didn't stop spending money on LOL after the first year, I'm still spending when I see a cool skin. But only as long as it's fun to play and that requires players to play against.

You should weight money, you get from whales, against money, you have to invest into server support. Free players aren't free for devs. What do you think, how much one free player costs for PGI? And if you don't have enough whales - you don't need more free players.

[Sandpit]

MrMadguy, on 29 February 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

I care about players, who are being scammed via this roguish scheme: to pull them in via great gameplay at first, excite them enough to make them invest enough money into this game and then simply force them quit via making game unplayable for them.

yea ok, I can see where this "discussion" is headed now, I'll catch the rest of you guys in some other thread.

[MrMadguy]

Now I have another such match in my collection:


It's not even just possible - it's very easy. 100K for nothing.

Edited by MrMadguy, 29 February 2016 - 11:51 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

MrMadguy, on 29 February 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

You should weight money, you get from whales, against money, you have to invest into server support. Free players aren't free for devs. What do you think, how much one free player costs for PGI? And if you don't have enough whales - you don't need more free players.

1 player costs close to absolutely nothing for PGI. The servers costs the same no matter how many players there are. And as long as whales require free players, they are worth it.

Watch this:

But this is getting off topic so lets end it here.

[TKSax]

I have had many a great game that ended in a 12-1, 12-2 score, sure not the Majority but there have been quite a few where both teams are trading well and the tide turns when that first mech or 2 go down and then it ends as 12-1 or 12-2 game.

[Savage Wolf]

MrMadguy, on 29 February 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

Now I have another such match in my collection:

It's not even just possible - it's very easy. 100K for nothing.

Again, what does it prove? That you can be carried? No one has ever denied that and no matchmaking will fix that. Compare your matchscore to someone who tanked and pushed at the right time to ensure victory but didn't manage to fire at an enemy before he was destroyed. The match score would be the exact same.
However, over the course of 100 games, the one that needs carrying will not win as often as the tank, making the W/L the place where you can measure their efforts.

[himself]

Sandpit, on 28 February 2016 - 11:29 PM, said:

uhm
so you just basically said keep the same system but rename it...

Yes, can you not read? Current PSR is terrible as a skill rating, but it serves okay as a gauge of how much time a player has spent playing the game.

Sandpit, on 28 February 2016 - 11:29 PM, said:

Also, if you group up, it should be an average of the team's PSR to find opponents. It works both ways ya know. It's not fair that a bunch of new players should be facing off against a bunch of Tier 2s simply because their buddy made an alt account to keep it at Tier 5 so they can run roughshod through Tier 5 players

If you had bothered to read instead of skimming every 5 words of my post, you would realize that this is already covered.

Sandpit, on 28 February 2016 - 11:29 PM, said:

The current PSR system is fine in my opinion. It just needs to be weighted a bit more on individual match scores as opposed to W/L. (Which Russ said they're going to be tweaking)

The "segregation" of the players in this regard is the same thing most any other online multiplayer game does. It seeks to help mitigate new and lower skilled players from running into experienced and/or higher skilled players on a regular basis. It also already tries to help ensure "even" numbers of players on both teams. That's how the MM works as far as I know.

If your'e grouped up it takes the average of all players' PSR, it doesn't take the highest in the group and use that. So if you're dropping in a group with a Tier 5 buddy, you're going to average out to either Tier 3 or 4 depending on whether they round up or down.

As a Tier 5, that player is already facing Tier 3 opponents on a regular basis. The only thing that would change based on being in that group is having to play some Tier 2 sometimes as well. If you're in a larger group and the PSR averages out higher than that, then you and your group should be more than able to help "carry" those new players because you're there specifically helping them out as you said.

Sandpit, on 28 February 2016 - 11:29 PM, said:

Also, if you group up, it should be an average of the team's PSR to find opponents. It works both ways ya know. It's not fair that a bunch of new players should be facing off against a bunch of Tier 2s simply because their buddy made an alt account to keep it at Tier 5 so they can run roughshod through Tier 5 players

So you went from spouting non-sense that isn't an issue with my suggestion and contradicted yourself by pointing out the fact that the current system already does this. Good one.

There's nothing wrong with new players having an opponent that is more experienced as long as the new:old player ratio is even between both teams. Nobody learns anything from watching pubbies smash into each other.

El Bandito, on 28 February 2016 - 11:34 PM, said:

I don't want to group with complete newbies who doesn't even know where the "lock" button is, or shooting SRMs against target beyond 400 meters. Also the reason why I do not want trial mechs allowed in CW queue. Small groups have tonnage advantage in group queue so there is that.

Alistair Winter, on 29 February 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

No thanks.

I'd rather play with and against hordes of tryhards and angry neckbeards rather than playing with and against weekend warriors who have no idea how the game works. I've grinded really hard to get to Tier 1, not because it's a good indication of skill, but only because it reduces the number of steering wheel mechwarriors in my games. That's the most important thing.

As an XP system designed to separate the experienced from the inexperienced, PSR has only two major flaws:

• A misleading name
  
• No way to separate group queue accomplishments from solo queue accomplishments (similar to Elo). Some people get to Tier 1 really fast because they're mostly playing with big groups using VOIP, which inflates their stats way beyond what they could do in the solo queue.

Another flaw is that heavy mechs (and assault mechs, in the group queue) generally receive bigger PSR increases due to the way match score works. Light mechs generally have lower match scores.

Find a guild? You can still 12man drop into quickplay or CW.

Does everything have to be a "ME ME ME" circlejerk with you people?

Moldur, on 28 February 2016 - 11:58 PM, said:

That's called matchmaking



That's called no matchmaking.


The idea that it would avoid rolls is not an accurate prediction.

One is called segregation, the other one is actual matchmaking.

You know, when the system makes matches and distributes players to each team in a manner that ensures balance between new players and experience ones?

If you're not able to grasp this concept, then I can't help you any further.

EDIT: Forget it, there's no way I'm answering 4 pages of people's inability to read and grasp simple concepts.

Edited by himself, 29 February 2016 - 01:32 PM.

[Intrepid]

MrMadguy, on 29 February 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

I will finally quit this game on this Wednesday. And I hope, that this time I'll never return.

Good riddance; although still not soon enough.

For the record, 3k XP is an easy Tier3 match with the daily double

[Sandpit]

MrMadguy, on 29 February 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

I don't care. It takes hours to grind 3K XP.

That's quite apparent which is why many aren't taking you very seriously with what you're saying here.

It doesn't take hours to grind 3k exp. Less than 10 wins will net you 3k experience. If you're having those kinds of games another tier rating system isn't going to change that. The PSR ain't got nothing to do with that

Sandpit, on 28 February 2016 - 11:29 PM, said:

uhm
so you just basically said keep the same system but rename it...

himself, on 29 February 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

Yes, can you not read? Current PSR is terrible as a skill rating, but it serves okay as a gauge of how much time a player has spent playing the game.

you should really spend less time trying to insult the intelligence and reading comprehension of others.

I'm hoping you realize just how silly you look after reading those quotes.

Obviously I can read since you agreed with my statement....

smh

the trolls in this community really need to step their game up

[himself]

Sandpit, on 29 February 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

you should really spend less time trying to insult the intelligence and reading comprehension of others.

I'm hoping you realize just how silly you look after reading those quotes.

Obviously I can read since you agreed with my statement....

smh

the trolls in this community really need to step their game up

Why am I trolling?

Trying to come up with a skill rating that isn't open to abuse or padding is nigh impossible. You're better off gauging how long someone has been playing and hope they're competent.

idk bff jill fam, you're the only one looking silly here.

[Ted Wayz]

Savage Wolf, on 29 February 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

Again, what does it prove? That you can be carried? No one has ever denied that and no matchmaking will fix that. Compare your matchscore to someone who tanked and pushed at the right time to ensure victory but didn't manage to fire at an enemy before he was destroyed. The match score would be the exact same.
However, over the course of 100 games, the one that needs carrying will not win as often as the tank, making the W/L the place where you can measure their efforts.

LOL.

Wins and loss are more the result of matchmaker than any one persons effort in pug play. And matchmaker does put you on streaks. I don't choose to play bad 27 consecutive games, but matchmaker can put me in 27 consecutive poorly matched matches where I lose (and it has).

And PSR judges every match as Skirmish. If our group caps their base in Assault a microsecond before the opposing team and no one fires a shot, our great skill will keep us level or go slightly up while their obvious mediocre skills mean they all go horribly down. Broken.

The true measure of a players skill is...wait for it...their skill. With slight modification the leader board method could be used to sort players by skill level and by chassis. It would allow for good new players to be with players of like skill quicker. And since it rates by chassis you can be tier 5 with your fun and funky mechs and experiment a bit while you are tier 1 with your try hards.

[Sandpit]

himself, on 29 February 2016 - 06:00 PM, said:

Why am I trolling?

because after your intial post you've done nothing but rant and insult others

[himself]

Sandpit, on 29 February 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

because after your intial post you've done nothing but rant and insult others

And...?

[Sandpit]

himself, on 29 February 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

And...?

nothing, thanks for proving the point though. Ejecting thread. GL&GH I'll be in one of the more constructive threads. You can have your troll thread until you derail it into K Town