286 replies to this topic

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 March 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

That would only break a few IS mechs, it wouldn't fix Clan mechs, and it wouldn't fix mechs like the Black Knight.

So they gave the clanners their proper amount of inflation?

[Wintersdark]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 March 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

So they gave the clanners their proper amount of inflation?

They didn't give omnimechs any hardpoints inflation at all. Removing hardpoints inflation would basically be a huge nerf to IS.

As well, it's highly tangental to the problem, inflation allows some mechs to boat some weapons more, but inflation is not responsible for the situation we find ourselves in.

And, while everyone thinks their pet issue is The One True issue, the fact of the matter is that there are many contributing factors. Heat scale is certainly one, but not the only one. Convergence is another major one.

The problem is, as much as people have their pet hates about how PGI transitioned Battletech to MechWarrior (how heat works, weapon convergence, hardpoints) none of these are "easy fixes". MWO is quite a house of cards of interlocking issues. Changing the heat system, or convergence, for example isn't something you can do in isolation and magically fix everything.

Not that they shouldn't! These are all major things that really should get addressed.

But realistically, I don't think they're going to make such a fundamental change to game mechanics at this point. That they're willing to revise ghost heat itself is a shocker after being so invested in it for so long. PGI has always shown an attitude of " just move forwards", and even poor systems are always kept rather than scrapped and replaced. It's why the ghost heat thing is such a big deal.

So, sure, get your two bits in for later "I told you so" lovings, but understand that those things aren't going to happen. At least, not now.

[CDLord HHGD]

RedDragon, on 02 March 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

So much this!

[Zolaz]

So the answer to Ghost Heat is to add even more voodoo to the heat equation? Sounds like Ghost Heat became MOAR Ghost Heat.

[Summon3r]

only one question left, does Paul have anything to do with this?

[El Bandito]

wanderer, on 02 March 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

I still don't see the pinpoint combo-blasts going away. All this does is give you ghost heat by another name, meaning the same alphas to the same locations, possibly less often- but the same result as you'd have gotten with ghost heat.

A real heat system (that is, gradually increasing penalties for overheating) that actually means overheat less than 100% has effects. Some kind of non-perfect convergence to kill the Death Star alpha strikes. This is what changes things.

An "energy" system is another layer of useless "complexity" over MWO's game.

Russ's experimental system and progressive heat penalty are not mutually exclusive, hence why I said in the OP that such penalty system would be a welcome addition. You should tweet to Russ about it.

oldradagast, on 02 March 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

And whatever magical, meaningless damage number they pick as the threshold for "too much alpha" will suddenly become the upper limit of whatever combination of pinpoint, long-range weapons defines the new meta. Nothing changes; pixel perfect, instant convergence long range damage will remain the meta. At least this will probably reign in those overpowered AC20 + SRM builds that are soooo dominate, what with their huge alpha numbers (and terrible range and built-in damage scatter, but PGI doesn't seem to understand that.)

It's not the alpha value, but how precisely it can be applied and what range that matters.

PGI will definitely consider range (such as for SRMs, small and medium class lasers) as a factor for energy equation, cause to do otherwise would be a gross error in judgement. Again, tweet to Russ about your concerns. More feedback = better, but keep it constructive.

Summon3r, on 02 March 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

only one question left, does Paul have anything to do with this?

Paul will oversee it, as it is his work position. So blame will befall him from the community if anything goes badly.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 March 2016 - 05:58 PM.

[Summon3r]

El Bandito, on 02 March 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

Paul will oversee it, as it is his work position. So blame will befall him from the community if anything goes badly.

welp im calling now DOA lol

[Zerberus]

El Bandito, on 01 March 2016 - 09:40 PM, said:

It is gonna replace the Ghost Heat system, though in early stage. That's my take from the Twitter reply Russ gave to Homeless Bill.





I personally advocated such system, and I think it is better than what we have now, though less excited about the GH v.2 part. If PGI used forced chain fire and added progressive heat penalty, then I would really become ecstatic.

I don´t think "heat penalty" necessarily means ghost heat.

Depending on how you interpret it (Penalty to heat /penalty caused by heat) It could for ex. simply be a debuff to your energy bar, meaning you can fire even less before you overheat and shut down (which is essentially ghost heat with a monitoring system, a "penalty to heat"). Or it could be an actual loss of movement speed as would be TT appropriate, or a shaking reticule to simulate the to hit penalties, or both .... penalties caused by heat.

I hope for the second but expect a system that´s insignificantly different that what we have now. Not because I don´t think PGI can pull it off on at least some level, but becasue 1. I like surprises and 2. I very much doubt the community as a whole will allow something even resembling a lore accurate interpretation to be implemented without an amout of qq that makes mechs board wooden ships in matching pairs

Edited by Zerberus, 02 March 2016 - 06:14 PM.

[oldradagast]

El Bandito, on 02 March 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

PGI will definitely consider range (such as for SRMs, small and medium class lasers) as a factor for energy equation, cause to do otherwise would be a gross error in judgement. Again, tweet to Russ about your concerns. More feedback = better, but keep it constructive.

Yep... And I'd bet a nickle on that being the outcome - or, more likely - a convoluted and utterly illogical series of modifiers for each weapon that ends up declaring SRM's as broken while undervaluing Gauss or some lunacy. The fundamental issues have still not been addressed (long-range, pinpoint damage), but the pile of band-aid solutions is getting mighty deep.

[1453 R]

Why are people so convinced that a 30-point heat scale and triple dissipation, or whatever numerical idiocy I keep seeing referenced in here, will fix a damn thing?

At that point you're basically just eliminating the regular heat bar entirely and replacing it straight-up with the quick-recharging 'Power Draw' system. There's no upper heat limit constraining 'Mechs able to game their way around the low heat dissipation cap - whatever manner of awkward ripple-fire 20dps SRM boats end up emerging after the change would have absolutely no opposition of any sort. You'd simply replace one unbalanced, difficult-to-adjust meta with another one - and I guarantee that three months later you'd all be pining for the days when energy weapons could actually be fired without requiring shutdown override.

Like Wintersdark said - it's not even remotely so cut-and-dried as THIS NONSENSE:

RedDragon, on 02 March 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

Makes it seem. "Fixing the heat scale" is easy to say. Actually making it work? That could be difficult.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

As per usual, the meta will shift.
The usual suspects will figure it out and min max as they always do.
Then people will be crying again, and demand we bring back ghost heat or blah blah blah

[Carl Vickers]

Be interesting to see how this is going to screw over the lazor boat IS mechs, BK, hopper ad crab that are now out.

Timber becomes even more god like due to XL 375. Looking at it from that point most clan mechs become god like due to bigger engines, except for the whale due to teeny tiny 300 engine.

Where I do at this point in time see IS lazor boats going is lots of large pulse.

[El Bandito]

oldradagast, on 02 March 2016 - 06:14 PM, said:

Yep... And I'd bet a nickle on that being the outcome - or, more likely - a convoluted and utterly illogical series of modifiers for each weapon that ends up declaring SRM's as broken while undervaluing Gauss or some lunacy. The fundamental issues have still not been addressed (long-range, pinpoint damage), but the pile of band-aid solutions is getting mighty deep.

Save the angst for when more info about the system is revealed. Right now we have only its outline. Besides, once the system is in place, it would be very easy to adjust the values for each individual weapon.

Assuming PGI's hired interns do not snooze at their desk...

Carl Vickers, on 02 March 2016 - 06:14 PM, said:

Be interesting to see how this is going to screw over the lazor boat IS mechs, BK, hopper ad crab that are now out.

Timber becomes even more god like due to XL 375. Looking at it from that point most clan mechs become god like due to bigger engines, except for the whale due to teeny tiny 300 engine.

Where I do at this point in time see IS lazor boats going is lots of large pulse.

See, this is what I am talking about. Nowhere did PGI mention that this power draw system will be influenced by engine rating, yet people are flipping out over it. Look, tweet your concerns to Russ and press for more info, but do not go super saiyan over something that is still in prototype phase.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 March 2016 - 06:21 PM.

[STEF_]

El Bandito, on 01 March 2016 - 09:40 PM, said:

I personally advocated such system, and I think it is better than what we have now, though less excited about the GH v.2 part. If PGI used forced chain fire and added progressive heat penalty, then I would really become ecstatic.

My thought, esactly.

[Carl Vickers]

El Bandito, on 02 March 2016 - 06:19 PM, said:

Save the angst for when more info about the system is revealed. Right now we have only its outline. Besides, once the system is in place, it would be very easy to adjust the values for each individual weapon.

Assuming PGI's hired interns do not snooze at their desk...




See, this is what I am talking about. Nowhere did PGI mention that this power draw system will be influenced by engine rating, yet people are flipping out over it. Look, tweet your concerns to Russ and press for more info, but do not go super saiyan over something that is still in prototype phase.

Not flipping out at all, I think this could be very interesting, just theory crafting Bandito, seems like you were flipping out a bit at my comment ;p

[oldradagast]

El Bandito, on 02 March 2016 - 06:19 PM, said:

Save the angst for when more info about the system is revealed. Right now we have only its outline. Besides, once the system is in place, it would be very easy to adjust the values for each individual weapon.

AssumingPGI's hired interns do not snooze at their desk...

The thing is, we're talking about a company that:
- Left missiles doing half damage for about a year because they either couldn't figure out how to fix splash damage (which, if I recall, STILL isn't fixed, but is just reduced to such a small radius that it doesn't exist) or thought LRM's were too powerful
- Still can't figure out how to fix the PPC when books have been written on the topic
- Still thinks LBX's and machine guns are great because "they do extra crit damage"
- Thinks that hover jets are fine, but refused to instead give us good jump jets and continued reticle shake on the descent, which would make sense
- "Fixed" flamers by making them overpowered

The list just keeps on going. If they can't handle any of the above issues, half of which could be fixed by tweaking values in an XML file, I have no faith that they'll get this "Ghost Power" system designed correctly.

[El Bandito]

oldradagast, on 02 March 2016 - 07:00 PM, said:

The thing is, we're talking about a company that:
- Left missiles doing half damage for about a year because they either couldn't figure out how to fix splash damage (which, if I recall, STILL isn't fixed, but is just reduced to such a small radius that it doesn't exist) or thought LRM's were too powerful
- Still can't figure out how to fix the PPC when books have been written on the topic
- Still thinks LBX's and machine guns are great because "they do extra crit damage"
- Thinks that hover jets are fine, but refused to instead give us good jump jets and continued reticle shake on the descent, which would make sense
- "Fixed" flamers by making them overpowered

The list just keeps on going. If they can't handle any of the above issues, half of which could be fixed by tweaking values in an XML file, I have no faith that they'll get this "Ghost Power" system designed correctly.

Would you have them continue the current Ghost Heat system instead?

[WarZ]

Ha ha ! One of my suggestions is actually making it into the game !

I posted this suggestion and brought it up numerous times in threads starting back in the 2-3 year ago range. I just assumed it was never noticed.

It was always based on the novel lore back in the original series of books. Clan omni's couldn't fire a gauss rifle without it almost shutting down their mechs, due to the incredible power draw (cockpit lights dimmed, and no other weapons could be fired for a short time).

So power draw with a limit was part of the lore.

Logic does work

[Nightshade24]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 02 March 2016 - 01:11 AM, said:

Firing such a mixed combo already have a ton of penalties, weapons cancel out each other advantages, and totally spreads over the enemy due range/dropoff/target lead issues. (granted there is a mech that could actually have such setup).

That was an extreme situation as an example.

However there is more to life than min maxing...

For eg: Why have LRM's on a non LRM boat?

LRM's for their weight and damage for such range and heat is nearly over powering. It can make even the slowest of atlases able to be combat effective in a 1000 meter radius and able to assist and support it's team mates in combat with the single LRM 15 / single LRM 20 / Dual LRM 10 / triple LRM 5/ Quadruple LRM 5. meanwhile still be nearly virtually the same in it's close range capabilities with it's AC 20 / Medium lasers / SRM's.

Why have small lasers/ machine guns/ small pulse lasers / er small lasers / flamer on a mech that isn't 30 tons or lighter?

These are the most OP weapons in game... when you look at their damage per ton or DPS per ton more precisely. or heat per ton... which here MG's are virtually the best in every situation especially the 0.25 ton clan MG.
This makes any mech rather it be a 20 tonner or a 100 tonner able to give additional supporting fire at close range for low heat- a bit more important now since these can easily fire at that 1 locust who thinks having 2 flamers is enough to make him immortal.

Why have SRM's when you got lasers?

Cheap weight for high close range brawling potential, great weapon if you can lead and handle not relying on alpha striking 24/7 and wish to have lasers.

Why have AC's when you got lasers?

Similar to above but with other advantages and such...






Let's apply this to the real game and how having non-boaty mechs handle yes?

We all know this situation: "Oh no, Polar highlands / alpine peaks / etc in a brawler [juggernaut] assault mech (like kingcrab, atlas, etc). I am useless!"
Solution: having a more traditional juggernaut helps out with adding a long range missile system to it, allowing it do deal okay damage at range and continue to assist in battle while moving into position- which is far better than doing nothing for the few minutes you are walking there and potentially doing nothing the whole match

what about you drop in terra therma with say your uber meta timberwolf? Oh darn, 5 ER medium lasers and 2 large pulse lasers do not like the sounds of moultan lava running by... however the ladi n your lance with a timberwolf with some SRM 6's and Machine guns can stay in battle much longer than you and can handle a brawl.


It's why I personally like my Stalker 3F the way it is... 4 med lasers, 2 large lasers, 2 srm 6's, 2 lrm 10's.
I am not useless when I am to far behind my team (LRM 10's)
I am not useless when things get up close and personal (SRM 6 / Medium lasers)
I can handle the heat (LRM 10 / SRM 6's)
I am not ammo dependent to do well (Medium laser /large laser)
I can still jab enemies at medium ranges (large lasers)
etc. I can do many things well and will never be vulnerable in terms of firepower (movement makes me vulnerable to faster mechs. however you can't change that with other builds).


However the suggestions I had are more of an extreme to show my point to a degree and the above mechs I just mentioned are just fine...

however 4 er med laser + 2 large pulse laser being better than say an 8 er medium timberwolf or 3+ large pulse laser timberwolf because linked ghost heat/ ghost heat cap being fidgity here...

Or the fact I can have an AC 10, AC 20, and an AC 5 randomly on some mech and easily do a low heat 35 damage hit (not the best way to achieve it but using weapons of similar type here) or throw in a few PPC's here...

it's weird how ER large lasers, ER PPC's, an an AC 20 firing at the same time has no 'ghost heat' but firing 7 medium lasers or 4 SRM 4's will...

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Summon3r, on 02 March 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

only one question left, does Paul have anything to do with this?

Paul and Bryan will probably be working with this. Paul is Lead Designer, Bryan is Creative Director IIRC.

Don't expecy any miracles with those two.