286 replies to this topic

[CDLord HHGD]

[Gas Guzzler]

cdlord, on 03 March 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

The reaction of a terribad when he runs around a corner and gets iced by 3 mechs alpha striking.

[CDLord HHGD]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 March 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

The reaction of a terribad when he runs around a corner and gets iced by 3 mechs alpha striking.

The thing is, PGI recognizes the high use of alpha strikes as a problem. Plenty of the vocal forum community does too. PGI is therefore taking steps, however successful or not they will be, to address this part of the meta. Once again, meta players are getting their world turned upside down because they want to club baby seals. All I say is, "Good, won't affect me one bit."

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cdlord, on 03 March 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

Once again, meta players are getting their world turned upside down because they want to club baby seals.

If you think meta players only care about clubbing baby seals then you haven't played with many meta players...and if you think meta players will not adapt to whatever change PGI throws in, once again, I don't think you understand meta players.

That aside, alpha strikes aren't near the problem they were before the rebalance during the age of the Meta Whale. The meta currently is actually pretty cool for the viability of a variety of mechs currently, and not that many can or should actually alpha with significant firepower.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 March 2016 - 01:39 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 March 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

If you think meta players only care about clubbing baby seals then you haven't played with many meta players...and if you think meta players will not adapt to whatever change PGI throws in, once again, I don't think you understand meta players.

That aside, alpha strikes aren't near the problem they were before the rebalance during the age of the Meta Whale. The meta currently is actually pretty cool for the viability of a variety of mechs currently, and not that many can or should actually alpha with significant firepower.

Oh, I have played with many so yeah, it's about clubbing baby seals to get the win. Oh and I have specifically been told that the meta players will "simple" adapt. Seems to be an awful lot of whining for a simple adaptation......

I faced a Clan CW team last night. I'd be shocked, SHOCKED if there wasn't a mech boating lasers.... Variety indeed.

Edited by cdlord, 03 March 2016 - 01:42 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cdlord, on 03 March 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

Oh, I have played with many so yeah, it's about clubbing baby seals to get the win. Oh and I have specifically been told that the meta players will "simple" adapt. Seems to be an awful lot of whining for a simple adaptation......

I faced a Clan CW team last night. I'd be shocked, SHOCKED if there wasn't a mech boating lasers.... Variety indeed.

First, CW is a broken game mode, stop using it as some example of terrible/good balance, you also are probably playing against players who don't know any better.
Second, you can adapt and not like pace or changes to a game, those are not in any shape or form mutual.
Third, I'm pretty sure you played with wanna-be meta players, because some of us actually want a challenge.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 March 2016 - 01:48 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

cdlord, on 03 March 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

Oh, I have played with many so yeah, it's about clubbing baby seals to get the win. Oh and I have specifically been told that the meta players will "simple" adapt. Seems to be an awful lot of whining for a simple adaptation......

Lol no it isn't but believe whatever you want to feel better about yourself.

The protests aren't about the adaptation, but are about the effect this misguided change will have on the nature of the game. And the fact that my longstanding favorite mechs from before MWO that aren't eligible for the new dakka meta will be gimped for otherwise no real benefit to the game. Why on Earth would you think this change is going to have any effect on clubbing seals? Good players are still going to be good, and bad players are still going to lose and complain about the next "problem". Its a cycle.

Besides, pretty sure I usually don't go up against baby seals in the public queue anyway, the whole PSR thing is supposed to prevent that. Your argument is invalid.

[CDLord HHGD]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 March 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

Lol no it isn't but believe whatever you want to feel better about yourself.

The protests aren't about the adaptation, but are about the effect this misguided change will have on the nature of the game. And the fact that my longstanding favorite mechs from before MWO that aren't eligible for the new dakka meta will be gimped for otherwise no real benefit to the game. Why on Earth would you think this change is going to have any effect on clubbing seals? Good players are still going to be good, and bad players are still going to lose and complain about the next "problem". Its a cycle.

Besides, pretty sure I usually don't go up against baby seals in the public queue anyway, the whole PSR thing is supposed to prevent that. Your argument is invalid.

Funny, it was a team of Ghost Bears....

[Gas Guzzler]

cdlord, on 03 March 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

The thing is, PGI recognizes the high use of alpha strikes as a problem. Plenty of the vocal forum community does too. PGI is therefore taking steps, however successful or not they will be, to address this part of the meta. Once again, meta players are getting their world turned upside down because they want to club baby seals. All I say is, "Good, won't affect me one bit."

PGI recognizes that people complain about getting killed. And the vocal forum community isn't the best resource. Really, solid gold evidence here to support that alpha strikes are a problem.

I could care less about clubbing baby seals honestly, not really interested in easy mode. If I was, I would drop in my Tier 3 alt account.

cdlord, on 03 March 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Funny, it was a team of Ghost Bears....

Lol are you still talking about CW? Haven't played that in a while, and CW is a terrible example because ammo dependence is a weakness.

Are you trying to say it was Night's Scorn or something? Is that what you are getting at? Because otherwise I don't ascribe to be a part of Clan Ghost Bear, that is just where the guys in my unit who play CW wanted to have matches.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 03 March 2016 - 01:53 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 March 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

First, CW is a broken game mode, stop using it as some example of terrible/good balance, you also are probably playing against players who don't know any better.

Mechs shooting mechs is pretty standard.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 March 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

Second, you can adapt and not like pace or changes to a game, those are not in any shape or form mutual.

Granted but these chages are in DIRECT response to the meta-alpha strikers. Blame them.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 March 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

Third, I'm pretty sure you played with wanna-be meta players, because some of us actually want a challenge.

Let's see your builds. I wouldn't go calling CGB's a bunch of wanna-be's.

Gas Guzzler, on 03 March 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

PGI recognizes that people complain about getting killed. And the vocal forum community isn't the best resource. Really, solid gold evidence here to support that alpha strikes are a problem.

If it was "just" people getting killed, PGI wouldn't take action.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cdlord, on 03 March 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Mechs shooting mechs is pretty standard.

Except turrets being involved, one team being forced to push through some sort of funnel/lane, and wave approach changes the dynamics of the game, in a bad way.

cdlord, on 03 March 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Granted but these chages are in DIRECT response to the meta-alpha strikers. Blame them.

No it is a response to a perceived problem with the game by a vocal majority.

cdlord, on 03 March 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Let's see your builds. I wouldn't go calling CGB's a bunch of wanna-be's.

Are talking like CGBI or just units in general affiliated to CGB currently, because outside of NS, I don't know of many good teams that normally affiliate with CGB. Though, many comp units have been switching factions and I don't normally pay attention so it is possible there are more there.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 March 2016 - 01:59 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 March 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Except turrets being involved, one team being forced to push through some sort of funnel/lane, and wave approach changes the dynamics of the game, in a bad way.


No it is a response to a perceived problem with the game by a vocal majority.


Are talking like CGBI or just units in general affiliated to CGB currently, because outside of NS, I don't know of many good teams that normally affiliate with CGB. Though, many comp units have been switching factions and I don't normally pay attention so it is possible there are more there.

I'm not gonna name the specific group. All it did was affirm why I don't like the CW Clan Front. Turrets aren't in every CW mode though. Perception of a majority is 9/10ths reality.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cdlord, on 03 March 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

Perception of a majority is 9/10ths reality.

No, no it is not. A majority of people used to believe the earth was flat a long long long time ago, that ended up being 0% reality.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 March 2016 - 02:11 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

cdlord, on 03 March 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

I'm not gonna name the specific group. All it did was affirm why I don't like the CW Clan Front. Turrets aren't in every CW mode though. Perception of a majority is 9/10ths reality.

CW gameplay is far different from public queue, and there is no matchmaker, which makes it not very fun. I don't find shooting someone repeatedly in the CT while they back pedal is particularly fun.

[CDLord HHGD]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 March 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

No, no it is not. A majority of people used to believe the earth was flat a long long long time ago, that ended up being 0% reality.

In a game where the player's opinions and perceptions count? If we told PGI we wanted a flat world, they'd put it in game (councidentally, our world in-game IS flat.)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cdlord, on 03 March 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

In a game where the player's opinions and perceptions count?

If that were true, it wouldn't have taken this long for ghost heat to change.

[GreenHell]

I'll wait for actual numbers to come out before I cry to the heavens about this. It's still like... six months away before they do this thing ya know.

Also, what do you want to bet that the net result from this change will be exactly ZERO? How soon do you think it will be before people find that next "optimal" load out combination and are chucking 70+point alphas once again? I give it... about 3 weeks before they find a way to break the next system.

That is, if it ever comes out. Wouldn't be supprised to learn that PGI was bombarded with tweets/emails about "Ghost Heat 2.0 is bad" and just pulls the whole idea.

Edited by GreenHell, 03 March 2016 - 03:53 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

RedDragon, on 03 March 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

Btw that's exactly how I imagine Garth lost his job.

WHo is Garth? A PGI exemployee who went against the norm?

[ScarecrowES]

Interesting thing is... there will always be a "meta." Always. That's pretty much the nature of "meta." No matter what you do within a system, one combination of factors will always rise to the top and provide superior results. When a lot of that superiority is easy to predict through the use of simple statistics, a new meta will be known even before a balance change is dropped. This is a reality.

Complaining that players build and play according to meta concepts is incredibly stupid. It just is. If there is a way to build and play that is objectively better than other ways, it's only natural that players will gravitate to the superior way of doing things. The players are not at fault for playing the game it was designed to be played. If you must be angry at anything, be angry that the system allows for meta in the first place.

Changing the "ghost heat" system to this new "ghost heat 2.0" (because less face it, the system is exactly the same. The triggers are just slightly different) is going to have 3 basic effects... 1) a new meta will be crowned, 2) most players will flock to the new meta, and 3) some players will complain that other players have flocked to the new OP meta.

But more than that, some players will be so confused about how the new system works (because lets face it, it's convoluted as f***) that they won't be able to navigate it properly, while others will understand it well and be able to navigate it to much better effect. The more obfuscated you make a system, the greater the gap between players in that system will be. So the gap between "meta" players and non-meta ones will certainly be wider under the proposed system than in the current one.

Whether you like it or not, the current system is easy to understand. Don't mount more than 6 medium or small lasers on your mech... or if you do, don't fire more than 6 at a time, or incur the wrath of ghost heat. It's really really simple. Is it ideal? Hell no. It's a terrible way to do things... but it's simple, clear, and easy to work with.

Ultimately though, power draw with each weapon having a different value and blah blah... really complicated. Unnecessarily so. Know what would be easier than adding randomness to the current ghost heat system? Getting rid of it altogether and simply changing the heat scale and cooling rates. Or if you MUST have a heat penalty system, why not just base it on something easy like total simultaneous damage output? Do more than 30pts of damage at once, and incur a heat penalty. And preferrably not some obscure and random "ghost heat" penalty... maybe something easy like a temporary freeze pause in cooling ability or slowdown of cooling rate. Something more obvious. Anything really, other than the current and proposed systems.

[El Bandito]

ScarecrowES, on 03 March 2016 - 06:42 PM, said:

Or if you MUST have a heat penalty system, why not just base it on something easy like total simultaneous damage output? Do more than 30pts of damage at once, and incur a heat penalty.

Cause that will **** up spread damage weapons such as LRMs and SRMs. Not all weapon system are the same so trying to make a common denominator is a fools errand, at best. Each individual weapon system must have their own metrics for better balancing.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 March 2016 - 06:57 PM.