286 replies to this topic

[ScarecrowES]

El Bandito, on 03 March 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

Cause that will **** up spread damage weapons such as LRMs and SRMs. Not all weapon system are the same so trying to make a common denominator is a fools errand, at best. Each individual weapon system must have their own metrics.

I'm having a hard time judging if you're serious. I mean, I know what point you're trying to make, but your actual example is terrible. SRMs are right up there with lasers as the weapons of choice for high-alpha builds. I doubt anyone could claim that their spread somehow makes them ineffective weapons in practice. There's really no difference between 30pts of splat damage and 30pts of laser damage inside a match, in terms of how much of it will hit true and how much of it will spread.

You might... MIGHT have an argument about the effectiveness of LRMs, as we all know they're crap... but this doesn't give them any reason to be treated differently under a damage-based heat penalty system. But let's say you DO set the damage penalty threshold around 30pts... just for the sake of an example... That's 6 medium lasers' worth of damage, right - which is the current ghost heat threshold for lasers. That's equivalent to 30 simultaneously-fired missiles. That's 2 LRM-15 racks. 6 LRM5 racks. Fire 2 LRM20 racks simultaneously though, ghost heat. But seriously, would anyone have trouble controlling their desire to unload 2 LRM20s simultaneously? Would anyone actually ever FIRE 2 LRM20s simultaneously in the first place. It seems like a tremendous amount of heat output from the get-go to fire that many missiles at once - you don't even need the penalty... you'd be shutting down after 2 salvos anyway. So what then? Chain fire LRMs? Doesn't everyone just do that anyway?

So setting the damage threshold for heat penalties at 30pts seems to put the system exactly in line with the general output limits in the current ghost heat system... and it's a much easier system to understand. Do too much damage at once with any kind of weapon, and incur a penalty. It doesn't require convoluted power draw values. It only cares about the only thing that players care about... damage output per salvo. And like the proposed system, it can't be gamed. It doesn't care HOW you do the damage. There's no magical formula for weapon combinations that will let you do more simultaneous damage without incurring a penalty. Under the proposed system, you can bet there will be.

[El Bandito]

ScarecrowES, on 03 March 2016 - 07:14 PM, said:

There's really no difference between 30pts of splat damage and 30pts of laser damage inside a match, in terms of how much of it will hit true and how much of it will spread.

I see that you know not what you are talking about. So I won't bother with you any longer.

[ScarecrowES]

Ultimately the problem has never been, and will never be, that high-damage alphas exist in the game. Having to be slightly more careful in what arraingment a player fires his weapons has never really prevented a player from getting full use of those weapons. The problem has always been that it's just too easy to load heavy mechs with numerous light weapons and immediately bring them to full effect in low-risk/high-reward playstyles. It doesn't matter what that playstyle is.

Remember lurmageddon? Sit back and get easy kills with LRMs. Lot's of damage and low risk. Pop-tarting? Pop up from cover at long range, throw a mass of FLPD down range and fall back behind cover. Pokey laser vomit? Walk out from behind rock 2 feet, alpha, walk back behind rock. All risk/reward scenarios that fall heavily on reward. And always a band-aid that makes that ONE risk/reward scenario slightly less viable. But nothing has ever addressed the fundemental problem of being able to get that reward without any risk.

Fix that problem... make it so that mechs can't get the reward without a little risk... and you'll never need another convoluted mitigation method.

[ScarecrowES]

El Bandito, on 03 March 2016 - 07:18 PM, said:

I see that you know not what you are talking about. So I won't bother with you any longer.

Erm... how, exactly? I stand at 270 meters from a moving mech. I fire (2 SRM6+A and 1 SRM4+A) or (6 ML) at the center torso of that mech. Chances are overwhelmingly good I'll produce similar actual damage results over the torsos of that mech if I manage to land the hits. Which is to say that you're not going to get all 30 pts of damage in the center torso of that mech, and will spread some degree of that damage. Now, some players will have steadier aim and can make more of lasers. Some people can lead better and land more consistent hits with SRMs. Some can do both. But you can't argue that you're not looking at the same basic damage output profiles.

As I said... you used an extremely poor example. If spread was such a negative factor in the use of SRMs, not only would they not be the number 2 most popular weapon type, but they wouldn't need such rigid ghost heat limitations either. Currently though, they're both.

[Navid A1]

ScarecrowES, on 03 March 2016 - 07:33 PM, said:

Erm... how, exactly? I stand at 270 meters from a moving mech. I fire (2 SRM6+A and 1 SRM4+A) or (6 ML) at the center torso of that mech. Chances are overwhelmingly good I'll produce similar actual damage results over the torsos of that mech if I manage to land the hits. Which is to say that you're not going to get all 30 pts of damage in the center torso of that mech, and will spread some degree of that damage. Now, some players will have steadier aim and can make more of lasers. Some people can lead better and land more consistent hits with SRMs. Some can do both. But you can't argue that you're not looking at the same basic damage output profiles.

As I said... you used an extremely poor example. If spread was such a negative factor in the use of SRMs, not only would they not be the number 2 most popular weapon type, but they wouldn't need such rigid ghost heat limitations either. Currently though, they're both.

So many wrong assumptions. No 2 alphas are the same in this game.

SRMs are used for their low weight per damage per heat. Spread and hard limited range are big negatives.

Also... Please note that a pinpoint alpha form LPLs beats anything out of the water in the game right now.

Edited by Navid A1, 03 March 2016 - 08:06 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Navid A1, on 03 March 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

So many wrong assumptions. No 2 alphas are the same in this game.

SRMs are used for their low weight per damage per heat. Spread and hard limited range are big negatives.

Also... Please note that a pinpoint alpha form LPLs beats anything out of the water in the game right now.

Balancing individual weapons against each other is not the job of a system designed to mitigate the use of high-damage alphas.

Consequently, lasers have a trade-off too, remember... heat. 30pts of laser damage puts out a lot more heat than 30pts of SRM damage, for example - and both put out more than most ballistics. We already have systems to balance damage, range, heat, etc. That's not what THIS system is meant to do.

And frankly, trying to use one system to produce balance in another is a mistake. In the end, you just end up with two partially-broken systems, which is what we have now. It's a band-aid for bad balance and a lack of an overarching system to guide how players build and use mechs. The best we can hope for is the most straight-forward and basic fix.

You want to mitigate the ability of a player to put out a lot of damage simultaneously? Then address simultaneous damage directly. There's no need to make that system more complicated than it needs to be.

[Navid A1]

ScarecrowES, on 03 March 2016 - 08:21 PM, said:

Balancing individual weapons against each other is not the job of a system designed to mitigate the use of high-damage alphas.

Consequently, lasers have a trade-off too, remember... heat. 30pts of laser damage puts out a lot more heat than 30pts of SRM damage, for example - and both put out more than most ballistics. We already have systems to balance damage, range, heat, etc. That's not what THIS system is meant to do.

And frankly, trying to use one system to produce balance in another is a mistake. In the end, you just end up with two partially-broken systems, which is what we have now. It's a band-aid for bad balance and a lack of an overarching system to guide how players build and use mechs. The best we can hope for is the most straight-forward and basic fix.

You want to mitigate the ability of a player to put out a lot of damage simultaneously? Then address simultaneous damage directly. There's no need to make that system more complicated than it needs to be.

Its really easy to talk.

But the end of the day. A single LPL outperforms anything while being lighter, and having longer range.

How would you address simultaneous damage "directly" then?
An energy pool might do the job.

For example, If i invest weight on an auto cannon and ammo, i should be able to fire that thing without affecting my energy pool. But if I choose to do pinpoint 13 damage from 600m away, then i should pay the price which would be the large energy requirements of that LPL.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 March 2016 - 10:52 PM, said:

You are right.

It will shift to UAC5s/UAC10s, and AC5s.

And now while everyone is facetanking so they can cycle through their weapons, they will likely die faster than they would if they had been paying attention and using cover. You know, thinking man's shooter stuff.

"Thinking man's shooter" to most of this game's really terrible player base means "make it easier for me to survive longer so I have enough time to think more because I think and react slowly".


I'm going to laugh when those same goofballs start crying about how fast they die to low/mid "alpha" but ultra-high DPS builds that they can't even escape from when most matches will devolve into 300m ranged zerg rushes.

El Bandito, on 03 March 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

Cause that will **** up spread damage weapons such as LRMs and SRMs. Not all weapon system are the same so trying to make a common denominator is a fools errand, at best.

What are you smoking man?

SRM-bomb builds are exceptionally strong right now.

If you think that this system is only to curb laser alphas you are deluding yourself.

Edited by Ultimax, 03 March 2016 - 08:45 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Navid A1, on 03 March 2016 - 08:29 PM, said:

Its really easy to talk.

But the end of the day. A single LPL outperforms anything while being lighter, and having longer range.

How would you address simultaneous damage "directly" then?
An energy pool might do the job.

For example, If i invest weight on an auto cannon and ammo, i should be able to fire that thing without affecting my energy pool. But if I choose to do pinpoint 13 damage from 600m away, then i should pay the price which would be the large energy requirements of that LPL.

But that's not the system PGI is implementing, is it?

Besides... using my previous example of a straight up 30pt damage threshold, you can fire 2LPL simultaneously but not a third... that's what... 22 damage, right? Less damage than 2 SRM6+A launchers and ammo - and the SRMs weigh less. And I'm reasonably sure you get less heat with the SRMs too, right? So you're trading damage/ton and heat for range by using the LPLs over the SRMs. That and face time. So there's your balance points.

But with your autocannons... you could fire a single AC20, but not 2, same as now. You could fire 3 AC10, more than now, but weight makes this mostly impossible. You could fire 6 AC5, but again, impossible. So looks like the autocannons are only effected if they fire at the same time as something else. So if you fire 2 medium lasers with that AC20, you hit the damage cap. Not providing the same penalty for the massive damage of the autocannon as you're doing for massed lasers makes no sense. Now you've just developed a system where you can mount 2AC20s, a spread of SRMs, and fill whatever space you've got left with whatever lasers you can carry, alpha them all, and you're only getting penalized for firing the lasers? This is actually WORSE than it is now. You've just UPPED the damage capability of un-penalized alphas while simultaneously lowering the overall heat required to achieve that damage. So more powerful alphas more often is achieving the goal of this system... how?

Edited by ScarecrowES, 03 March 2016 - 08:49 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

El Bandito, on 03 March 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

Cause that will **** up spread damage weapons such as LRMs and SRMs. Not all weapon system are the same so trying to make a common denominator is a fools errand, at best. Each individual weapon system must have their own metrics for better balancing.

i Agree with you here Bandito,
perhaps if they where Balanced Based on Reliability?

Reliable Lasers(C-LPL), FLD Type ACs(AC20), and SSRMS(C-SSRM6) are 1:1(Potential Damage = Draw),
Spreading LBX(LBX10), SRM(SRM6), LRM(LRM15) and someC-UACs(C-UAC20) are 2:1(Potential Damage = Draw),

so Assuming its capped at 35,
Nova 6C-ER-ML has a Heat of 36 but a Draw of 42, as thats 7 points over 35 it gets more Heat,
How much more is up to How PGI does it if its 1:2 Damage:Heat, that would generate 50Heat(36+14),
Interesting,

[Johnny Z]

Grisbane, on 03 March 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

i can see pro's and con.. the pro's have been said as it removes ghost heat and the like, bad part is when the lower tier players start to get frustrated because the skill floor was raised too high. This will begin to task the new player with too much and you will see tiers 4 and 5 empty out. leaving new players to face only better and more skilled veterans. i wonder how long PGI can take the hit of milking only the existing player-base when this happens. the new player experience will once again be murder. if they do this, they should implement it very carefully and possibly think of creating a separate que for players under 1000 battles, where this mechanic is severely reduced. you can't ask new players to learn how to pilot a mech, , make a good build, have to account for power usage and deal with heat management right out of the gate.. it's simply too much.

Well the new player experience is in a very very bad state at the moment.

I am almost 100% sure that new players will get a mech of their own some time based on faction chosen or lack there of. Having their own fully functional mech in the newbie queues will be a way better start for them.

This along with other additions will improve the newbies situation ALOT.

But a good point, making it all to complicated isn't a good idea at all.

[El Bandito]

Ultimax, on 03 March 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

What are you smoking man?

SRM-bomb builds are exceptionally strong right now.

If you think that this system is only to curb laser alphas you are deluding yourself.

SRMs have 270 max range, and horrible accuracy at that range. To use them effectively, one has to get into brawl range, and I am 100% fine with more brawls happening in MWO. Better than peek-a-booing 700 meters away.

[Johnny Z]

ScarecrowES, on 03 March 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

Ultimately the problem has never been, and will never be, that high-damage alphas exist in the game. Having to be slightly more careful in what arraingment a player fires his weapons has never really prevented a player from getting full use of those weapons. The problem has always been that it's just too easy to load heavy mechs with numerous light weapons and immediately bring them to full effect in low-risk/high-reward playstyles. It doesn't matter what that playstyle is.

Remember lurmageddon? Sit back and get easy kills with LRMs. Lot's of damage and low risk. Pop-tarting? Pop up from cover at long range, throw a mass of FLPD down range and fall back behind cover. Pokey laser vomit? Walk out from behind rock 2 feet, alpha, walk back behind rock. All risk/reward scenarios that fall heavily on reward. And always a band-aid that makes that ONE risk/reward scenario slightly less viable. But nothing has ever addressed the fundemental problem of being able to get that reward without any risk.

Fix that problem... make it so that mechs can't get the reward without a little risk... and you'll never need another convoluted mitigation method.

Sorry the problem is high damage alphas.

They limit that then a Nova for example can take quite a few SPL's and some long rnge lasers instead of boating all SPL's because he will only be able to alpha so many of them. This isn't a complete down grade since it will have longer range.

Any way its done, limiting alphas is what this is all about.

Stock loud outs show the original intent of Battletech and it isn't about boating. Game play shows boating is kind of lame to.

Should 4 LL be ok on a STK assault mech? Sure, its when it has 6 that it gets stupid.

This is the root of a lot of problems, even those completely unrelated to this topic. Like the advantages wall hackers have etc. A wall hacker doesn't have to worry about anyone sneaking up on him, or getting shot because he can peak when he isn't going to get shot and unload the highest alpha his mech can carry in relative safety and then cool down and so on with common sense how this all plays out.. the result being alpha then speed are the primary stat they want in a mech and armor a distant last...

Edited by Johnny Z, 03 March 2016 - 09:06 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Johnny Z, on 03 March 2016 - 08:56 PM, said:

Sorry the problem is high damage alphas.

Not really. Is anyone complaining that a Jenner with 6 MLs can pop out around a corner, alpha, and pop back into cover? No. But people will complain that a Timberwolf can do it. So what's the difference? The alpha is the same.

The difference is, we expect that behavior from the Jenner. We expect it to be played that way... in fact, we generally believe it's the ONLY way these sorts of mechs are viable. Use speed and manueverability to get into a position for a quick shot, and then get the hell out. We don't expect Timberwolves to be able to do that... even if the results are the same. If we catch the Jenner at it, and we hit him in return, he's probably not going to live to tell the tale. If the Timberwolf gets caught, he's got the health to live through it. The Jenner has to go through a lot of risk to pull off the result... the Timber doesn't. It's not the alpha we're upset about... we're upset about the lack of risk associated with it.

Or did I miss all the "Jenner OP lazers meta" threads?

So the problem is NOT that high alphas exist... the problem is when you don't have to risk anything to use them. When there's no skill involved in making them work, or no potential punishment if you get it wrong.

When people stop getting this confused, we can start actually addressing the problem.

[Ultimax]

El Bandito, on 03 March 2016 - 08:53 PM, said:

SRMs have 270 max range, and horrible accuracy at that range. To use them effectively, one has to get into brawl range, and I am 100% fine with more brawls happening in MWO. Better than peek-a-booing 700 meters away.

Getting into brawl range is not an issue in this game right now, and SRM bombers straight up wreck laser mechs at those ranges.

I know perspective wise it might not seem that way in the solo pug queue where the game is "scared warrior online" - but games should never be balanced against the lowest common denominator because matches are dictated by poor builds, poor play and mistakes more than they are dictated by actual skill.

[El Bandito]

Ultimax, on 03 March 2016 - 09:06 PM, said:

Getting into brawl range is not an issue in this game right now, and SRM bombers straight up wreck laser mechs at those ranges.

As they should. I was sick and tired of useless SRMs for so long period of time.

Ultimax, on 03 March 2016 - 09:06 PM, said:

I know perspective wise it might not seem that way in the solo pug queue where the game is "scared warrior online" - but games should never be balanced against the lowest common denominator because matches are dictated by poor builds, poor play and mistakes more than they are dictated by actual skill.

Then you should know that Solo-Q experience is the main factor in the majority of the player retention. Most players do not frequent group queue or CW. For them, Solo-Q balance is everything. Once CW phase three comes out, things could be different.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 March 2016 - 09:20 PM.

[Johnny Z]

ScarecrowES, on 03 March 2016 - 09:04 PM, said:

Not really. Is anyone complaining that a Jenner with 6 MLs can pop out around a corner, alpha, and pop back into cover? No. But people will complain that a Timberwolf can do it. So what's the difference? The alpha is the same.

The difference is, we expect that behavior from the Jenner. We expect it to be played that way... in fact, we generally believe it's the ONLY way these sorts of mechs are viable. Use speed and manueverability to get into a position for a quick shot, and then get the hell out. We don't expect Timberwolves to be able to do that... even if the results are the same. If we catch the Jenner at it, and we hit him in return, he's probably not going to live to tell the tale. If the Timberwolf gets caught, he's got the health to live through it. The Jenner has to go through a lot of risk to pull off the result... the Timber doesn't. It's not the alpha we're upset about... we're upset about the lack of risk associated with it.

Or did I miss all the "Jenner OP lazers meta" threads?

So the problem is NOT that high alphas exist... the problem is when you don't have to risk anything to use them. When there's no skill involved in making them work, or no potential punishment if you get it wrong.

When people stop getting this confused, we can start actually addressing the problem.

Well your half right. But its still about the, build a mech for the highest alpha possible being the issue.

I didn't make up the term "Alpha Warrior Online" but its accurate.

Edited by Johnny Z, 03 March 2016 - 09:12 PM.

[WazOfOz]

wow so many posts in a thread, that's all speculation till we see it implemented. just wow

[Johnny Z]

WazOfOz, on 03 March 2016 - 09:12 PM, said:

wow so many posts in a thread, that's all speculation till we see it implemented. just wow

Well all the topics speculating about the ban wave were deleted. Someone should have said that the topics about the ban wave for the last two pod casts was actually a trap lol.

Oh no I talked about it, now this topic will be deleted, sorry.

[WazOfOz]

LOLs