248 replies to this topic

[Xavori]

Let me begin by saying if you don't like playing LRM mechs, great. Don't play them. Play what you enjoy. But if you think they're useless or bad...well...you're wrong. And this is why...

1 ton of LRM ammo is 180 damage. It's rock solid in terms of damage per ton.

My Stalker 5M carries 14 tons of LRM ammo (lulz) along with 3 medium pulse lasers to chase off annoying lights.

So we're at 14 x 180 = 2520 potential damage.

Of course you're never going to get that. On average, I expect 2/3rds of my LRM's to do 0 damage (which is why I carry so much ammo on my LRM mechs). That leaves 1/3 of LRM's to actually hit their target. Now, on maps like Polar Highlands, Alpine Peaks, or Boreal Vault in CW that umber goes up...sometimes significantly. And it's really only Crimson or Grim(CW) that it goes down.

2520/3 = 840 damage.

Now ask yourself how often you do 840 damage in a match? Ya, I don't very often either. Even if my team roflstomps the other side, I'm only getting in on a handful of those kills. But just knowing that I *could* do that much damage warms my heart. In case you're wondering, I'm averaging just under 500 damage per match in that mech which is pretty much in line with where I'm at on most mechs.

Now I have my Stalker 5M kitted with LRM range buff, + the 5M's quirk so I can launch LRM's at targets 1250m away, and unlike lasers they still do 100% of their damage at that range (my poor, poor targets on Polar Highlands or Boreal Vault). And since I can hide behind hills and real snipers can't...ya, I win.

Even if all I was figuring in was damage, that mech is so worth bringing to a fight, but of course, that's not all. It pushes enemies to stay in cover making them easier targets for my brawler mech buddies. It encourages enemies to yolo after me leaving smaller death balls for the rest of my team. It greatly discourages enemies from moving in the open making it harder for them to maneuver around a map effectively. It utterly dominates typical PUG strategies like Pug Mountain in Alpine Peaks or trying to move across the bridge or around in the water on River City. In short, it's a non-stop mind game.

And before you go, well sure, that's one mech...

-I built a LRM Atlas that carried just as much ammo for CW drops. Mostly because it annoyed Kcom when I got to drop with them for those few days because they are definitely anti-LRM

-For the Warhammer leaderboard event I built a 7S with nothing but 2 LRM 20's and 16 tons of ammo (2880 pot. damage). It made #13. So much lulz. Of course, it's now running a brawler build with a 76.7 alpha, but at times I do miss the LRM's.

-I ran a Huggins Raven with a single LRM15 and 8.5 tons (1530 pot. damage) of ammo that actually averaged 500 damage per match (unless it got caught sneaking around) because being a light let it set up much more likely-to-hit shots than your normal LRM boat.

...and so on...all it takes is being open to the possibility and learning how to use your LRM's effectively.

[MrMadguy]

LRMs are WAY TOO EFFECTIVE for me: that's why I avoid boating them - I don't want my PSR to rocket jump into the sky, making all my brawler 'Mechs worthless. I use some as support weapons for hot builds.

Edited by MrMadguy, 02 March 2016 - 12:28 AM.

[JP Josh]

and then one ecm srm totting commando ruins your day.

lrm's are a punish the stupid weapon. only works if the enemy lets it work. its why boating them is either really really good....

or your just eaten alive.

[Lily from animove]

good, now go further in your math and tell us how long you need to put out this damage and compare it how quick and efficient other laodouts can push those 840 damage out.

[chewie]

Not at all.

Lrms are a support weapon.
Support.

Eg you rain on people which distracts them, forces them to find cover, allows your team to use their pinpoint derp damaging builds to shoot them without them shooting back.

Because their too busy trying to avoid the lrms that they think are op.

They're not. They're supporting your team by making the enemy keep their heads down.

[Curccu]

Let me begin by saying that you are wrong, I should also add some facepalm.gif but I'm lazy and I don't.

I do play LRMs sometimes and I dare to say I handle them well, so I understand how they work and what are their limitations and weak points but also strengths.

Yes there are few maps that support LRM playing very well as you named them Alphine and Polar Highlands, most maps are pretty bad for LRM playing.

This legendary 840dmg, I'm not even sure why you mention this I mean with lazors and other weapons that do not consume antything except heatbar can do infinite damage... that is way more than 840.

Probably the most important thing about damage is that when you shoot LRMs it hit totally random locations vs well every other weapon in this game excluding streaks.

shooting LRMs from 1250 meters away? Yes doable but one question how do you get locks if you are behind that crest 1250 meters away? not to even mention that if you get that lock and shoot that enemy has almost 7 seconds to break the lock, pretty easy unless it's legged direwolf.

Kcoms... yeah they were correct... you were just useless player in their team, I would be annoyed also.

...and so on... it only takes some gaming skill + you have to understand how game mechanics work in this game to understand that LRMs are not good or effective weapon in 95% of cases.

[Parnage Winters]

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 12:19 AM, said:

But if you think they're useless or bad...well...you're wrong. And this is why...

Okay...hit me up with that math homeboy.

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 12:19 AM, said:

On average, I expect 2/3rds of my LRM's to do 0 damage

Yo if a weapon does zero damage as you stated 60% of the time. It's a **** weapon. What else ya got?

Oh just a bunch of nonsense about how your piss poor builds work against terrible players who run equally or worse terrible builds? Man you sure are providing a lot of math. Like the math of how having a 1,250 meter range is really ideal for firing lrms and no mech except a stock urbanmech is going to be able to not evade that.

You've turned mechs that should not be LRM boats into worse then LRM boats, you've turned them into -bad- LRM boats. Builds that have too much ammo, use far too big LRM launchers and wastes mechs abilities by throwing LRMS on things that can not even begin to take advantage of them(HI ATLAS, HI RAVEN)

You, are the very reason people hate LRM players. Because you think it's good and you make this insane leaps of logic on the idea that it's good because it worked that one time everyone stood out in the open in Tier Wood. I'd like to make fun of you, but frankly anyone egotistical enough to post this "math" and claim to be correct despite the vast majority of veteran solid players disagreeing with you just means it's a wasted effort.

If you ever wake up, and realize your builds are bad and wanna "git gud" Look me up. I'll ease you into it.

[Jaqir]

LRM doesn't always net you a lot of kills. More often than not though, you've ridiculous amounts of Most Damage Done. There's the thing. While yes, the damage spreads, it also ensures that your pinpoint damage brawly types finish off the opposition a lot faster. As has been said, LRM is a support weapon, whether you're boating them or not.

[kesmai]

most matches i play with my buddies last 2.5-5 minutes. Lrms are not feasible there. You'll be dead before you even score 400 dmg.
solo & cw is wherE you can bring lrms. But you are not trading armor and soak damage then. You are leeching on your teams frontline mechs armor, so if you are getting rolled please don't blame others.

Edited by kesmai, 02 March 2016 - 01:41 AM.

[El Bandito]

Awesome-8R is one of my best LRM mechs. Those who do not respect its power usually turns to slag soon after. Of course, map terrain is a factor, but since map heat also affect laser boats, I am not complaining.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 March 2016 - 01:45 AM.

[Xavori]

Curccu, on 02 March 2016 - 12:50 AM, said:

Let me begin by saying that you are wrong, I should also add some facepalm.gif but I'm lazy and I don't.

Since you basically bring up all the nonsense of the anti-LRM crowd in one convenient post, I'll answer ya point by point.

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I do play LRMs sometimes and I dare to say I handle them well, so I understand how they work and what are their limitations and weak points but also strengths.

At least you're willing to admit they have strengths. You demonstrate a pretty serious lack of understanding tho. There is more to LRM play than just wait for lock.

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Yes there are few maps that support LRM playing very well as you named them Alphine and Polar Highlands, most maps are pretty bad for LRM playing.

Most maps are okay. A couple are good. A couple are weak. This is true of every build tho. I wish you much luck running a short range brawler on Polar Highlands. Conversely, that same build is likely scary as hell in Frozen City.

Quote

This legendary 840dmg, I'm not even sure why you mention this I mean with lazors and other weapons that do not consume antything except heatbar can do infinite damage... that is way more than 840.

Here's is where you demonstrate your utter lack of understanding mech combat beyond point and shoot.

Lasers do not have infinite damage. They have an adjusting maximum damage that always matches the total hit points of the entire enemy team and that decreases over the course of the match. This is pretty irrelevant to anything tho.

The reason 840 matters is because it demonstrate just how irrelevant your point about lasers is. Who cares if lasers can do enough damage to kill the entire team because you're not going to do that by yourself unless the entire other team AND all your teammates go afk for the entire match while you run around killing stuff. What matters is can a build do enough damage to be a valuable asset to the team. 840 damage in a match would be fantastic, so having that as a realistic possibility for a build's damage is a must.

The same holds true any time you're using weapons other than lasers, btw. If you build a mech that can't put out at least 500 damage total because you can't carry enough ammo (allowing for lasers of course), you definitely need to rethink your build.

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Probably the most important thing about damage is that when you shoot LRMs it hit totally random locations vs well every other weapon in this game excluding streaks.

LRM's, LBX, SRM's, and Streak SRM's are all stuck playing by tabletop rules while the current MWO allows pinpoint accuracy on everything else. It's a problem, and apparently it's going to get addressed.

Of course, it's also pretty irrelevant. The only time you get that level of pinpoint accuracy is against bad players or when you get really lucky sneaking up on someone. Most of the time, your damage gets spread out anyway. Heck, with your oh-so-precious lazors, much of your damage likely goes flying off into space or into a wall or whatever against a good player.

Quote

shooting LRMs from 1250 meters away? Yes doable but one question how do you get locks if you are behind that crest 1250 meters away? not to even mention that if you get that lock and shoot that enemy has almost 7 seconds to break the lock, pretty easy unless it's legged direwolf.

I have teammates. I'm a strong believer in the OP nature of teamwork.

And the entire reason I only assume 1/3 of LRM's will hit is that sometimes targets do break lock, or they get under cover, or they have a triple AMS kitfox parked next to them. Of course, I tend to pay really, really close attention to detail with firing LRM volleys so I never waste multiple volleys on such a target.

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Kcoms... yeah they were correct... you were just useless player in their team, I would be annoyed also.

Except the part where I was doing 300-500 points of damage in my LRM boat consistently which is more than anyone other than Tormented or O'Neil, and since those two are among the very best MWO pilots out there, it doesn't really break my heart that they did better.

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...and so on... it only takes some gaming skill + you have to understand how game mechanics work in this game to understand that LRMs are not good or effective weapon in 95% of cases.

And your lack of understanding is why you don't get just how valuable they are.

[MrMadguy]

LRMs serve the same purpose, AC/2 were serving in the past - suppression/defensive/barrage fire weapon. You don't necessary need to be LRM boat - you may be brawler. And you don't necessary need to actually hit your target. Simple thing, that LRMs achieve - enemies try to hide instead of pushing. That's how game was working before rush'n'stomp tactic became so popular - if enemy sees, that he is being shot - he retreats. And this is all you need to get closer to him.

Edited by MrMadguy, 02 March 2016 - 01:46 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

LRM viability is 99.999% reliant on teamates that know what the R key does, as well as having teammates that know how to scout as well as bring the appropriate equipment to do it correctly.

Teamwork is teamwork, and finding it in pubs is like chasing unicorns majority of the time.

[2fast2stompy]

Math For The Anti-MG Crowd (Aka Why You're Wrong)


Let me begin by saying if you don't like playing MG mechs, great. Don't play them. Play what you enjoy. But if you think they're useless or bad...well...you're wrong. And this is why...

1 ton of MG ammo is 160 damage. It's rock solid in terms of damage per ton.

My DWF-B carries 36 tons of MG ammo (lulz) for my 5 C-MGs to spray death from.

So we're at 36 x 160 = 5760 potential damage.


Now ask yourself how often you do 5760 damage in a match? Ya, I don't very often either. Even if my team roflstomps the other side, I'm only getting in on a handful of those kills. But just knowing that I *could* do that much damage warms my heart. In case you're wondering, I'm averaging just under 500 damage per match in that mech which is pretty much in line with where I'm at on most mechs.

Now I have my DWF-B kitted with C-MG range buff, so I can pulverize targets almost 150m away, and unlike lasers they have extra crit chance (my poor, poor targets on Mining Collective or Frozen City ). And since I can shoot forever and not everheat...ya, I win.

[MadcatX]

chewie, on 02 March 2016 - 12:44 AM, said:

Not at all.

Lrms are a support weapon.
Support.

Eg you rain on people which distracts them, forces them to find cover, allows your team to use their pinpoint derp damaging builds to shoot them without them shooting back.

Because their too busy trying to avoid the lrms that they think are op.

They're not. They're supporting your team by making the enemy keep their heads down.

So much this! I've always enjoyed LRM's because it's the MW:O equivalent of suppression fire and always thought PGI was going in the wrong direction in their many attempts to make them viable in comparison to everything else. They are support and in the right hands and mounted on a mobile chassis to ensure you can get around any blocking terrain, can definitely help the teammate in a brawl or make enemies disengage from a fight to find cover.

[kesmai]

Lol

[Kyynele]

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 01:44 AM, said:

Except the part where I was doing 300-500 points of damage in my LRM boat consistently which is more than anyone other than Tormented or O'Neil, and since those two are among the very best MWO pilots out there, it doesn't really break my heart that they did better.

So, you only need some of the actual top tier players in the game to spot for you, and then you're sort of useful spamming a little damage all over them random enemies? A whopping 300-500 damage, too.

I used to play LRMs a lot when I was a newbie, too. I still sometimes play LRMs, but the pattern is pretty clear: if I play during prime time, they're useless and I get my *** handed over to me, and if I play very late night/very early mornings, I get to play with tier 3 players, where half of the enemy team just stands in the open and dies, and after half the enemy team is dead, it doesn't matter if the rest know how to take cover, they get rolled anyway.

So, if you play in the low tiers all the time, sure, LRMs can even be a reliable weapon. But it's not because the weapon is good, it's because your enemies are bad. And I'll let you figure out what that tells about you.

Edited by Kyynele, 02 March 2016 - 01:53 AM.

[Xavori]

Kyynele, on 02 March 2016 - 01:53 AM, said:

So, you only need some of the actual top tier players in the game to spot for you, and then you're sort of useful spamming a little damage all over them random enemies? A whopping 300-500 damage, too.

I used to play LRMs a lot when I was a newbie, too. I still sometimes play LRMs, but the pattern is pretty clear: if I play during prime time, they're useless and I get my *** handed over to me, and if I play very late night/very early mornings, I get to play with tier 3 players, where half of the enemy team just stands in the open and dies, and after half the enemy team is dead, it doesn't matter if the rest know how to take cover, they get rolled anyway.

So, if you play in the low tiers all the time, sure, LRMs can even be a reliable weapon. But it's not because the weapon is good, it's because your enemies are bad. And I'll let you figure out what that tells about you.

Actually, I usually play solo drop PUG in quickplay when running LRM boats. I kindly remind my teammates about their R key at the start of match, and most times that's enough. I only brought up the Kcom bit because it was lulzy at the time, and so very much of my gaming is based on generating lulz. I suspect if I played with good teammates all the time, I could push that 1/3 number much higher as I'd have a lot fewer volleys missing due to lost locks.

And 500 damage in a mech when you have excellent teammates is would be freakin' fantastic. In CW, that means you're going to finish with 2k damage total. Much more common is to see most of your team in the 1k to 1.2k across the board because nobody gets all the kills or all the damage. Hell, I know CW players who are happy to get 200 damage per mech.

[Wolfways]

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 12:19 AM, said:

...and so on...all it takes is being open to the possibility and learning how to use your LRM's effectively.

So LRM's are good because you do 1/3 of max damage/ton with them forcing you to carry 14tons of ammo to be effective...
14tons of ammo!
14tons!!!

[Kyynele]

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 02:02 AM, said:

And 500 damage in a mech when you have excellent teammates is would be freakin' fantastic. In CW, that means you're going to finish with 2k damage total. Much more common is to see most of your team in the 1k to 1.2k across the board because nobody gets all the kills or all the damage. Hell, I know CW players who are happy to get 200 damage per mech.

In CW, if you truly have excellent teammates, you're not going to have the time to walk 4 mechs to the slaughtering grounds before the match is over.