248 replies to this topic

[GrimRiver]

With this build AS7-S I use the LRM10 to suppress and damage until I move into brawling range, so far it's worked to great effect.

It's mastered and I get mostly 500-800dmg with it per match.

[PhoenixFire55]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 02 March 2016 - 04:47 AM, said:

and i dont give a flaming F about your competitive league, its full of toxic tryhards that only feel comfortable enough to pull that stick out of their behind around their own kind

Love it how a guy who's never been in a competitive team and never personally knew a single player from them throws insults like that. Typical toxic butthurt scrub. Nothing new to see.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

PhoenixFire55, on 02 March 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

Love it how a guy who's never been in a competitive team and never personally knew a single player from them throws insults like that. Typical toxic butthurt scrub. Nothing new to see.

- if you get nothing but insults from "competitive players" - you dont WANT to get to know them

- any discussion with them turns into circle argumenting where they ignore core facts to twist the rest of them around and slap me in the face with the result

- i dont WANT to be in a competitive team, my time is too precious and schedule too erratic

edit:
- i dont consider "competitive" fun in a game that has its core meta built around counterstrike aim model minus recoil

Edited by Thunderbird Anthares, 02 March 2016 - 06:05 AM.

[John Gun]

There is always a little tear running down my cheek when i see an Atlas (or some other Mechs) forced into a Lrm boat because it can carry Lrm's, but thats my opinion, let everyone play what he/she likes is an other.

That said i think Lrm's and Lrm boats are part of BT and Mechwarrior and they have their worth as support, best mixed into a team.

I for myself prefer Mechs with a med to close range loadout over sniper or lrm builds,but that doesn't mean i don't use those builds from time to time myself.
And i wouldn't agree to the Lrm = no skill statement.
I think its a different kind of skill you need to play a lrm boat really good, same as it is a different kind of skill master a brawling build vs. a sniper build e.g. but that doesn't make it no skill if played well.

Being a good lrm pilot from my point of view isn't staying behind hill xy lurming everything one can get a lock onto and the possible amount of dmg dealt should not be the only point considered for going into battle with a Lrm boat.
The keyword here for me is support!
A "good" Lrm pilot has to have a good map and situational awareness, has to know how to use cover as good as possible while at the same time has to stay at least close to the team.
And he has to decide wich are good targets for Lrm's and its not allways the obvious one.
E.g. is there a target thats a major thread for my teammates, can i support a push with holding a certain mech in cover and so on.
And at last, i think only counting on and using locks of teammates isn't what its all about, even a Lrm pilot should at least be able and willing to get locks themselfs instead of starting to cry when the team can't provide some.

Well thats my aproach to Lrm boats, naturely oppinions can differ.

[Dawnstealer]

LRMs are like arty-strikes: they're meant to pick off new players and herd the enemy. While you're correct that the overall damage is impressive, and I'll give you that LRM boats at the end of a game can put up good numbers, the firer has no direct control over where those missiles land (other than "on the mech").

So if an enemy mech has, say, an open left torso, you're going to hit...the mech. And that LRM20? It's going to be spread across that mech.

If you had any other weapon (other than a Streak SRM), you could target that torso directly and pop it off, taking out weapons, components, or, in the case of an IS XL engine, killing them. But with LRMs? It's just rain. Painful rain, yes, but also avoidable.

Edited by Dawnstealer, 02 March 2016 - 06:18 AM.

[Kyynele]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 02 March 2016 - 06:03 AM, said:

- if you get nothing but insults from "competitive players" - you dont WANT to get to know them

I think you might want to reread the thread to see who was the first one to use the word "moron."

[Thunderbird Anthares]

Kyynele, on 02 March 2016 - 06:18 AM, said:

I think you might want to reread the thread to see who was the first one to use the word "moron."

just because he did not openly use an insult means he was polite?
nah, he was pretty damn snide - i just gave him the courtesy of returning it openly

you might want to stop and think about these things before you say them - i am perfectly well capable of insulting people without using a single "bad word" - i just think we can atleast be honest with each other here, up to a point anyway

[Xavori]

Bud Crue, on 02 March 2016 - 04:46 AM, said:

OP,

Just stop. This is pointless. Here is the deal:

(snip)

That was an actually interesting response. Thank you. I disagree with much of it (obviously), but it was refreshing.

A few quick points
-Tier 1 is not better players. It's players who've been playing longer. That subject has been beaten to death, but as long as you don't suck, Tier 1 is inevitable in the current PSR formula.
-Metamechs has prolly done more damage to this game than any site out there. They have a strong bias to a fairly boring style of play, that can be effective but requires a significant time investment to get used to. I'd love to have access to the data on players who struggle, go to that site looking for l33t builds, and then quit when those builds don't work for them. (as a side note, yes, I have a couple laser vomit mechs. I can play them as well as every other mech I have.)
-Your analysis of competitive level play assumes mediocre teammates for me and excellent opponents, ie. spotters dead, good teamwork wolfpacks coming after me, etc. Not sure you intended it, but it's always notable what biases show up, and why I found your post so interesting.
-No matter what happens in quick matches and tiers and maybe PGI actually making a PSR that works, CW can't really work the same way, and LRM's work well on all maps but Portico. (ironically, I'm currently running 4 brawling mechs atm...I change up my dropship all the time and that's just where it's at atm because I know what I'm going to do with the Archer arrives and so want to play other things until then)

Idealsuspect, on 02 March 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

And how many kills with your 840 lrms damage? aka 2520 potential damage
2520 potential damage? It mean 10 whole minutes spamming tonns of lrms becose your teamates, who are dying one by one while you hide, gave you some spots during the whole game ..
(snipped word salad and other trash)

I solo drop PUG a lot in quick play, so...it varies? Some matches I get 400 or so damage, no kills, and only an assist or two. Most matches I get 2-3 kills most damage and 8-10 assists. I've gotten as high as 3 solo 5 KMD and 12 assists.

Ghogiel, on 02 March 2016 - 05:19 AM, said:

It's not like people haven't tried to make just about everything work, it's just somethings have shown themselves to be more effective. That didn't come about by forum warrioring and asserting anything. That's come about because the better players in the game are in lobbies practicing and experimenting.

with 3 weeks in the game I don't even know how much unit practice you have actually done, sounds like forum warrioring.

I honestly could find this post on the forum of practically every online PvP game ever including text based MUDs (sadly, you youngin's prolly haz no idea what I'm talkin' 'bout...back when we had to surf the net through 20 feet of snow...uphills...both ways....)

Now I'm not saying its always wrong. But more often than not, people aren't gravitating towards the best or most effective. They're going for EASIEST TO PLAY.

Do you know the majority of metamech builds are laservomit? Because it's a hell of a lot easier to just spam fire and pay attention to nothing but heat than it is to know you have to pay attention to heat AND ammo AND non-instantaneous hits. Go back and read this thread and you'll see that underlying most of the LRM's suck is the fact the players cannot make them work at all, and rather than accept the problem lies with themselves, it's how great tier one players are.

The reality is that if you take the time to learn to play LRM's, and that's more involved than just knowing to hold your crosshairs correctly until they lock, you are a major problem for the other team...just like any other build in the hands of a player who's taken the time to really get to know how to play it is. It's just that with LRM's, people see all those missiles that don't do damage and assume that every single one of them is wasted, and just like sperm, if a lurm is wasted, god gets quite irate.

[Ghogiel]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 02 March 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

i dont play "comp"
i play with a unit, we run into and play with other units, it happens in CW and group queue

i dont care for competitive play that is built on mechanics that i consider utterly broken and attracting the kind of people i want to have nothing in common with... im a MechWarrior(/BattleTech) fan, not a CounterStrikeWithRobots fan

really the only reason why i still care about MWO is because eyecandy and large amounts of people to play and have fun with, and i found a group of people that wants to have fun instead of trampling over the lore with a steel foot...

but since i came back and seen how little the game progressed (despite indeed improving, slightly), it just made me pick up MechWarrior: Living Legends again and start playing that for the sake of tactical gameplay depth... and im having TONS of fun there
i always loved MW, but MWO never 100% agreed with me - its just here to toy around with

What I don't get is someone who confeses to be uncompetive and doesn't know anything about it, wants be the one to school people on how effective mixed unit tactics and lurms are.

[C E Dwyer]

I Lurm, I have tag, I have Bap or Cap, I carry other weapons I get my own locks, if people do press R that's fine to

As a person who will contest how crap people claim they are, I also have to take umbridge wih the fool, who removes all other weapons and screams LURM BOAT PLEASE KEEP LOCKS !

[Thunderbird Anthares]

Ghogiel, on 02 March 2016 - 06:23 AM, said:

What I don't get is someone who confeses to be uncompetive and doesn't know anything about it, wants be the one to school people on how effective mixed unit tactics and lurms are.

there are 2 problems about this... or 3 if you extend the scope a little

1) the brutally overwhelming majority around here is NOT "competitive" and does not even consider the "competitive" players in the equation - because they are the absolute extreme
2) mixed unit tactics are ALWAYS better - which is why they are used since the beginning of time, as opposed to one trick ponies

and

3) one trick ponies in MWO are a symptom of an inherently broken system that resulted from PGI's balancing mistakes between weapons and styles of gameplay catering to as broad of an audience as possible - let me point out to the elephant in the room -> pinpoint accuracy

aiming in this game is so ridiculously easy that any kind of an alpha strike in this system (designed for tabletop with random damage spread) results in massive crippling damage into a single component - there is no recoil, no aiming shake (not counting JJs and MASC), and no mech locomotion to consider... you dont even get aiming or speed penalties for cooking your myomers to the point black smoke comes out

so yes, i consider competitive play a kind of a joke around here

[PhoenixFire55]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 02 March 2016 - 06:03 AM, said:

- if you get nothing but insults from "competitive players" - you dont WANT to get to know them

- any discussion with them turns into circle argumenting where they ignore core facts to twist the rest of them around and slap me in the face with the result

- i dont WANT to be in a competitive team, my time is too precious and schedule too erratic

edit:
- i dont consider "competitive" fun in a game that has its core meta built around counterstrike aim model minus recoil

You don't know a single competitive player. All insults you get is due to your own behavior. Pro tip ... when you don't know jack about something better keep your mouth shut about it.

People who aren't afraid of showing their tier on the forum came here and stated facts about how LRMs are vastly inferior to pretty much anything else. They don't advocate the use of any other builds, they simply show that OP is plain and simple wrong.

On the other hand you and people like you, who claim that they have certain tier and yet are afraid to show, it keep coming up with some tier-5 fairytale "core facts" nonesense then throw insults like that at people who simply know what they are talking about. You don't have time to study the game and yet you act like you mastered it. If you think that whatever you occasionaly saw in PUGs or on streams is actually "competitive" gameplay I'll have to disappoint you, it's not.

[Kyynele]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 02 March 2016 - 06:20 AM, said:

just because he did not openly use an insult means he was polite?
nah, he was pretty damn snide - i just gave him the courtesy of returning it openly

you might want to stop and think about these things before you say them - i am perfectly well capable of insulting people without using a single "bad word" - i just think we can atleast be honest with each other here, up to a point anyway

Feel free to also reread your initial post which he was replying to. Do you honestly consider your opening in this discussion, containing the expressions "you brilliant Einsteins" and "skull crushingly stupid", with absolutely no explanations to your claims warranted a more polite and better argumented response?

I'm pretty sure you should heed your own advice and think about these things a bit. But if the quality of your life improves by this little venting, I suppose it's worth it.

[Ghogiel]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 02 March 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

there are 2 problems about this... or 3 if you extend the scope a little

1) the brutally overwhelming majority around here is NOT "competitive" and does not even consider the "competitive" players in the equation - because they are the absolute extreme
2) mixed unit tactics are ALWAYS better - which is why they are used since the beginning of time, as opposed to one trick ponies

and

3) one trick ponies in MWO are a symptom of an inherently broken system that resulted from PGI's balancing mistakes between weapons and styles of gameplay catering to as broad of an audience as possible - let me point out to the elephant in the room -> pinpoint accuracy

aiming in this game is so ridiculously easy that any kind of an alpha strike in this system (designed for tabletop with random damage spread) results in massive crippling damage into a single component - there is no recoil, no aiming shake (not counting JJs and MASC), and no mech locomotion to consider... you dont even get aiming or speed penalties for cooking your myomers to the point black smoke comes out

so yes, i consider competitive play a kind of a joke around here

You are just forum warrioring. I think it would be better if you stop telling people they are morons and demonstrate to them how effective these mixed unit tactics are and your lrm support actually is. You aren't fooling anyone with your comp is too beneath me and you seem to setting yourself up to lose the matches and then just cop out by pointing at mechanics and saying if MWO worked differently I'd be right. Well it doesn't so the point about pinpoint is void imo.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

are you happy now? you with your big bad braggy showoff "not afraid to show it" number 1?

no, i usually get insulted for just saying something mildly silly and non offensive, or just... like that... in game, for no reason in particular - especially after some tier 1 person rushes into the mouth of a volcano and gets shredded to little metal shavings (that was a good one)

Tier means very little in this game

no my friend, i dont start - but i definitely throw that reply in

but... why do i bother - i will get yelled at for being only tier 3 now and completely dismissed by the "elite" that managed to chew through that XP bar, again, like is the norm on these forums

unfortunately, this is what i have to deal with here.... have you ever hated something closely related to something you like so much that you did not want to have anything whatsoever to do with it, pretend it does not exist.... yet continuing to indirectly affect you all the time?
frustrating, isnt it?

oh well, im out, there is no discussion to be had here anyway - anything i say will immediately be looked at with distrust by the "local big shots" and any perspective outside their limited one is automatically deemed inferior, because its not the norm.... i get it...

peace, kids

Kyynele, on 02 March 2016 - 06:42 AM, said:

Feel free to also reread your initial post which he was replying to. Do you honestly consider your opening in this discussion, containing the expressions "you brilliant Einsteins" and "skull crushingly stupid", with absolutely no explanations to your claims warranted a more polite and better argumented response?

I'm pretty sure you should heed your own advice and think about these things a bit. But if the quality of your life improves by this little venting, I suppose it's worth it.

general annoyed statement =/= directed insult

[Bud Crue]

Xavori,

Disagree with your analysis, but it was well stated and politely expressed, so thumbs up. I appreciate the time and effort.

In my post I wasn't actually trying to argue that high tier play is populated by "better" and certainly not necessarily competitive players but rather that folks in the higher tiers do indeed have the experience necessary to play the high alpha, direct fire builds that many folks around here covet as being "meta". And the facts are that with those builds and even a bit of skill in knowing how to use them and/or work as as team, such folks will beat a team of similar mechs but which also include the "handicap" of LRM mechs almost every time.

Certainly, there are some CW maps, where if you are lucky enough to go up against skittles who don't push very well LRMs can be brutal (Boreal defense for example). But even then, I do think you would be better off with direct fire weapons. Yet, knowing that I am actually in the camp of play what's fun. So yeah, I like playing lrms too, I just think we should all be realistic about their limitations.

[Jzaltheral]

Curccu, on 02 March 2016 - 04:38 AM, said:

You tier 5 scrubs could actually try to play in some competitive league and see how awesome your mixed unit tactics with almighty LRM support are.

Well, see. That's just using the wrong tool for the job. LRMs are not competitive play weapons. But in standard matches, they are effective. Are they as effective as direct fire front loaded damage like autocannons? No, but less effective doesn't mean useless. LRM's are often good at hitting fast lights because they can actually track and follow a target instead of just barreling straight ahead like an AC shell. Contrary to popular belief I do not need a target lock to hit you with LRMs (assuming I can see you), so your ECM buddy standing next to you may as well go play elsewhere.

In team play, with competent support, LRM's can be devastatingly effective (combining TAG or NARC and Artemis with LRM5s gives you the tightest missile spread in the game). Even in PUG matches, I can routinely post 600 - 700 damage with LRM based builds, and get multiple kills. And sorry OP, I don't need to carry nearly as much ammo to do that as you claim. If only a third of your missiles are hitting, you're firing at inappropriate targets.

In summary:
Are LRMs effective competition weapons? No. You'll get focused down and burnt to a crisp in short order.
Are they effective weapons in non competition matches? Yes, in the hands of a competent player.

[Novakaine]

Archer........

[Xavori]

Bud Crue, on 02 March 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

Xavori,

Disagree with your analysis, but it was well stated and politely expressed, so thumbs up. I appreciate the time and effort.

In my post I wasn't actually trying to argue that high tier play is populated by "better" and certainly not necessarily competitive players but rather that folks in the higher tiers do indeed have the experience necessary to play the high alpha, direct fire builds that many folks around here covet as being "meta". And the facts are that with those builds and even a bit of skill in knowing how to use them and/or work as as team, such folks will beat a team of similar mechs but which also include the "handicap" of LRM mechs almost every time.

Certainly, there are some CW maps, where if you are lucky enough to go up against skittles who don't push very well LRMs can be brutal (Boreal defense for example). But even then, I do think you would be better off with direct fire weapons. Yet, knowing that I am actually in the camp of play what's fun. So yeah, I like playing lrms too, I just think we should all be realistic about their limitations.

Ah, but I don't see the limitation being that LRM's aren't competitive. I see the LRM's limitation being I'm personally not going to get as many kills, for many of the reasons others have pointed out. But I'm okay with that. Instead,

I'm going to be the guy keeping the enemy bunched up. I'm going to strip armor off the enemy mech so that my teammate's alpha is a kill shot. I'm going to be the guy who gets that last hit on a light's leg that brings him to a screeching halt so he's just roadkill for the other guys chasing the rabbit. I'm going to be the guy who's covering an opponent's cockpit in explosions so they can't see to aim.

And sure, I'm going to get some kills in as well when I catch someone out in the open, or I lock onto a mediocre or worse player, but my primary job is softening and battlefield shaping, not killing, and so I play my LRM boats in that fashion.

Cathy, on 02 March 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

I Lurm, I have tag, I have Bap or Cap, I carry other weapons I get my own locks, if people do press R that's fine to

As a person who will contest how crap people claim they are, I also have to take umbridge wih the fool, who removes all other weapons and screams LURM BOAT PLEASE KEEP LOCKS !

I've been actively avoiding talking about how to make them work beyond showing the damage numbers making it clear that they can work. It's much lulzier when you kill someone with a weapon they "know" to be inferior.

[Kyynele]

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 06:22 AM, said:

The reality is that if you take the time to learn to play LRM's, and that's more involved than just knowing to hold your crosshairs correctly until they lock, you are a major problem for the other team...just like any other build in the hands of a player who's taken the time to really get to know how to play it is. It's just that with LRM's, people see all those missiles that don't do damage and assume that every single one of them is wasted, and just like sperm, if a lurm is wasted, god gets quite irate.

Oh yes, this bit. "LRMs are good if you only learned how to play them properly." I'll be pretty bold and claim I know how to play LRMs, and back it up with the stats of my 100% solo pugged A1:



It's not my only LRM mech, but it has always been my favorite. As you can see, I've played it a lot, it has brought wins and kills, and delivered a nice average of 550 damage per match.

And it is completely useless against any decent T1 players in the current game balance. I'm not trying to hoard this gem of a weapons system so that others couldn't use it, I'm genuinely trying to help people who have interest to getting better in this game. LRMs are a dead end. Once you reach the skill cap in them you can only witness how other players advance farther by not using LRMs. Up to that point you can and likely will do well, but then you may have a lot of catching up to do, if you've seriously relied on it.