248 replies to this topic

[Afuldan McKronik]

Isnt it frustrating when someone runs up to your face and goes neerneerneer with their (insert any other weapon loadout here)?

[Xavori]

sycocys, on 02 March 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

So 1 ton of LRM ammo is worth ~60 damage.

While 1 ton of SRM ammo is still worth 200 damage because you can actually aim it.

Know how I know you're not at all familiar with SRM accuracy?

Roadkill, on 02 March 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

(snip interesting argument)

So sorry, Xavori, but you're wrong. The math actually supports the fact that LRMs are less effective than other weapons.

They can still be useful, and they're certainly a lot of fun (I use them all the time), but they're simply not as good as direct fire weapons as primary armament. But that's okay, because the tradeoff is that they can fire indirectly which allows a good LRM boat to support multiple skirmishes at the same time. They're a support weapon, and they're reasonably good in that role.

Your argument's problem is that you defined "effective" to mean something that guaranteed your argument. It's not quite a tautology, but it's close.

I left your last paragraph in there to specifically point out everything else that was wrong with your argument.

For example, what if I tried saying, "LRM are more effective because haha you have to peek over the hill into a line of enemy mechs and die before you even get your shot off. Hahahaha!" This does happen, but it has nothing to do with whether the weapon I was arguing against was good or not.

LRM's are effective. Just because they're not the fastest killing weapon in the game doesn't change what they do do well. And they have that indirect fire thing going for them that no other weapon system in the game has.

[Xavori]

Afuldan McKronik, on 02 March 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

Isnt it frustrating when someone runs up to your face and goes neerneerneer with their (insert any other weapon loadout here)?

Not really. I've only ever ran one mech that was pure LRM's, and as I've mentioned, that was mostly for teh lulz.

Most of the time I have other guns and if you're going to give me point blank shots after running through however many LRM volleys you ate to get there, I like my odds.

Oh, and I'm not one of those bad LRM pilots who figures that because I can hide behind stuff I can also stay all by myself. Odds are, if you tried charging me, you had to run past my buddies to get there and really, you're mech likely just fell over dead at my feet.

[pattonesque]

basically any old junk works in the lower tiers where people panic as soon as they get damaged or hear "incoming missile"

once you move up LRMs become a lot less effective

[Thunderbird Anthares]

problem with LRMs and this circular argument is that running "math" on them is a little hard

you get ridiculous damage numbers - but thats essentially splash damage
splash damage does not get kills - but teammates breach wrecked armor easier
killing things takes long - but you get to fire pretty much all the time from almost anywhere (exaggerating, i know)
things can take cover - but you can instantly switch to a different target
you can support your teammates - but its not reflected in the score numbers
you can suppress the enemy team - but its not reflected in the score numbers either

and like a dozen of these more

thats why i said to dont try to directly compare weapon systems that work differently - they are not going to perform even comparably same because their function is completely different
up few tiers - i have not noticed any significant change in effectiveness, because LRM are extremely teamwork dependent - when you get better just as much as the opponent does... the effectiveness does not change that much (simplified example for theory's sake)
Tier means very little - and teamwork effectiveness is not tiered

[Kyynele]

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

Your A1 still looks to be in line K/D wise with the laservomit warhammer, albeit with not enough matches to draw a solid conclusion with. (My personal feeling is that laservomit warhammer doesn't work as well as SRM warhammer or the Black Widow I'm running which is a mix of lasers and machine guns).

Yeah. The stats don't tell everything though. Nowadays, I can only get reliably good matches with my A1 if I play really late at night, around 3-5am, when there are so few T1 players online that I get put in lower tier games. The times I have played daytime or prime time, have typically resulted in shamefully mediocre 200-300 damage performances, constantly dragging the mechs stats downward.

Anyway, best of luck on your way to T1, I'm sure one day you'll be the one telling newer players not to rely on LRMs too much. In fact, if the forum's post history goes back far enough, I'm sure you could find posts by me telling that LRMs aren't that bad, with several of the arguments you have made. GLHF.

[Gyrok]

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 01:44 AM, said:

And your lack of understanding is why you don't get just how valuable they are.

Your lack of understanding is showing...

Their higher damage totals were to specific points on a mech.

For LRMs to be as effective as a direct fire weapon...you need to be doing 3 times the damage...because even if you hit...you are doing it to all 3 torsos at minimum. If we include torso twisting, and catching arms/legs in there...then you need to realistically do 5 times what anyone else on the team did to be as effective as they were in the match.

#TRUTH.

EDIT: Come back when you have a skirmish screenshot with 2400 damage and 8+ kills and next best is <600 on your team. We will re-open the discussion about LRMs at that point, and congratulate you on your Ace of Spades. It cannot be that hard if LRMs are as good as energy weapons...I mean, Celyth once put up 2200 damage and 9 kills in a laser boat in skirmish...

Edited by Gyrok, 02 March 2016 - 09:16 AM.

[Chados]

Novakaine, on 02 March 2016 - 07:09 AM, said:

Archer........

This. Gonna be a LOT of LRMs on March 15. Good time to think about investing in a Clan assault chassis...maybe Mr. Gargles...that's maneuverable and can roll with combined arms direct fire. All ya gotta do is get to 179 meters. Then it's on like Mrs. Jones' pre-K class on cake and ice cream.

I don't hate LRMs. I enjoy LRMing and LRM skirmishing. But the system has limitations just like any other and I don't like boating anything. Even on the mighty TimberGod I like having a uAC10 to offset those LPLs.

Edited by Chados, 02 March 2016 - 09:33 AM.

[Soldier91]

Afuldan McKronik, on 02 March 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

Isnt it frustrating when someone runs up to your face and goes neerneerneer with their (insert any other weapon loadout here)?

That's why my A1 only has short range missiles. [Well also because SRM's are fun, kinda challenging having a super limited range and not really precise aiming feels good when it works though] Tried a mix of short and long a while back but the damage window for it to be effective was between 180 and 300 meters and cut the ammo too much to be really useful at either range. I get a kick out of seeing full LRM A1's in matches though real sadistic thrill when I can close in and start killing those things up close since I know exactly how that player feels.

Edited by Soldier91, 02 March 2016 - 09:44 AM.

[Livewyr]

LRMs, as the game is now, only have a place in casual play. Period.

They do not fight the Pinpoint laser meta (in fact, they are absolutely destroyed by it)
-Travel time and warning makes them easy to dodge
-Lasers can acquire/hit target instantly and retreat before LRMs even get a lock.
ECM makes them dead weight (unless you pack on more dead weight, and even then it's marginal improvement.)
-If the ECM opponents are outside 750m with lasers, then you have dead weight entirely.

Only fixing the combat system (ECM and instant, unfailing, perfect convergence) will give them any life outside casual play.

Edited by Livewyr, 02 March 2016 - 09:31 AM.

[Xavori]

Kyynele, on 02 March 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

Yeah. The stats don't tell everything though. Nowadays, I can only get reliably good matches with my A1 if I play really late at night, around 3-5am, when there are so few T1 players online that I get put in lower tier games. The times I have played daytime or prime time, have typically resulted in shamefully mediocre 200-300 damage performances, constantly dragging the mechs stats downward.

Anyway, best of luck on your way to T1, I'm sure one day you'll be the one telling newer players not to rely on LRMs too much. In fact, if the forum's post history goes back far enough, I'm sure you could find posts by me telling that LRMs aren't that bad, with several of the arguments you have made. GLHF.

Pretty sure that will never be me as I'm not at all fond of telling people how to play

However, I might do this:

"Do not, my friends, become addicted to lurm boating. It will take hold of you, and you will resent it's absence."

Gyrok, on 02 March 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

For LRMs to be as effective as a direct fire weapon...you need to be doing 3 times the damage...because even if you hit...you are doing it to all 3 torsos at minimum. If we include torso twisting, and catching arms/legs in there...then you need to realistically do 5 times what anyone else on the team did to be as effective as they were in the match.

You basically rekt your own argument there, champ.

If you include torso twisting, you're hitting all three torsos with lasers, too. Heck, if you're up against a good pilot who's moving and twisting, there is a good chance you're losing half the damage or more to missing completely, getting piles more heat than a LRM boat, getting blasted in the face, and still hitting all three torsos when you do hit.

Oh, and if someone is twisting vs LRM's, that's a huge win for me because they're wasting their time doing that rather than shooting my teammates. After all, LRM hits don't care much at all about facing.

[cazidin]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

LRMs, as the game is now, only have a place in casual play. Period.

They do not fight the Pinpoint laser meta (in fact, they are absolutely destroyed by it)
-Travel time and warning makes them easy to dodge
-Lasers can acquire/hit target instantly and retreat before LRMs even get a lock.
ECM makes them dead weight (unless you pack on more dead weight, and even then it's marginal improvement.)
-If the ECM opponents are outside 750m with lasers, then you have dead weight entirely.

Only fixing the combat system (ECM and instant, unfailing, perfect convergence) will give them any life outside casual play.

Tbh, increasing their velocity and setting it so that the warning only informs you of incoming missiles within X meters would make LRMs much more effective.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

cazidin, on 02 March 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

Tbh, increasing their velocity and setting it so that the warning only informs you of incoming missiles within X meters would make LRMs much more effective.

indeed
and slicing the minimum range on IS LRMs would allow people like me to play much more aggressively

[Livewyr]

cazidin, on 02 March 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

Tbh, increasing their velocity and setting it so that the warning only informs you of incoming missiles within X meters would make LRMs much more effective.

Thunderbird Anthares, on 02 March 2016 - 09:44 AM, said:

indeed
and slicing the minimum range on IS LRMs would allow people like me to play much more aggressively

Still would not compare to instantly selecting the most vulnerable part of an enemy mech and removing it. (Right torso stripped on that Atlas? Lasers can focus it and pick it off. Missiles cannot.)

[Barkem Squirrel]

Xavori, thanks for instigating this discussion and Kyynele for the comments.

My experience with LRMs is due to necessity. I play with 6 to 14 frames persecond and since Feb 2015 when the Zeus came out my mechs have mech Parkinson. (the phasing of the mech torso either right or left or up or down in increasingly violent and expanding shifts) It took me months last year to figure out how to play again. That included not playing that much for months. I can get up on the leader boards including into the top ten playing this game on a toaster and using LRMs. So I play mainly for fun now, when I have time.

One thing about how effective fire is from LRMs. Anything over 40% hit rate with LRMs is doing good, but there is the suppression or area denial aspect. I had one game in an OXIDE that I did 756 damage with carrying only 720 LRMs. I had one nice arty strike on the two direwhales after running out of ammo. Then again I have quite a few games that I do more damage than the number of LRMs that I carry, especially in Medium or light mechs. The one locust that carries 360 LRMs I normally get over 400 damage due to the ML. Then on Alpine or even caustic valley I can make the other team just avoid an area around me or die trying. One thing to note, getting out of tier 5 was hell for me. Then I started to do crazy things like leading the charge in a Medium LRM boat to break the other team up like a flock of turkeys. Sure stuff that is suicidal for the level that I am use to, but hell it was tier 5 and I could not get wins anyways while doing the most damage in the match for both teams. Yep it was time for DERP tactics and builds.

Before, in early 2015 and 2014 I knew who I was dropping into matches with and it took forever for the match maker, I was the only one with LRMs normally. Could I be effective and do tons of damage every match hell no, but it forced me to relook at LRM boats. It just made me more dangerous. My favorite LRM boats now have LL's or ERLL's to pop a CT or do an XL check. Before this point I would go on a win streak, then all of a sudden no one else had LRMs start a loss streak until I saw LRMs again. After doing that 5 or 6 times I stayed in the higher ELO while using LRMs, but also other builds. Why other builds, well some people decided that they wanted to light rush the LRM boat person and the streak crow or Jagermech was a nice surprise from time to time.

What I do know about LRMs, people will always secure the kill for you and just except that. With direct fire weapons they will hit the other mech more often, unless you have LRM 5's on chain fire or another weapon to pop the red CT. You should get quite a few kill most damage dealt each game. If people are complaining about all the LRM boats your team had, while you were the only LRM equipped mech on your team you did your job. So remember to say thank you in chat and remind them that you were the only LRM boat. I got legged the next match for doing that once. Then sitting back in the rear will get you killed, so will running out front, but in the pack or near a direwolf there are other more important mechs to kill first. Then 300-400 m firing range is a decent range to fire at.

Then be able to run other builds, be it Laser vomit, pop tarts, Dakka or splat varieties. What you can do unto others, they can do unto you. So learn.

Also I dropped a bit with Kcon and was worried about being TKed the entire time due to using LRMs. I think the only reason I was not TKed was that I was being effective. Still using LRMs at that level is so hard. People know how to use IV lines (intervisability lines or a run behind a rise just out of sight), position so LRM can not hit them or limit exposure times.

[Yankee77]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

Still would not compare to instantly selecting the most vulnerable part of an enemy mech and removing it. (Right torso stripped on that Atlas? Lasers can focus it and pick it off. Missiles cannot.)

To be fair, by the same token, LRMs can still kill someone if they twist away to protect their open location. So it goes both ways: direct fire weapons can allow pinpoint destruction of vulnerable parts if they are exposed, while LRMs can take out these vulnerable locations even if the target is guarding against the laser alphas.

Furthermore, the argument that LRM damage should be cut in half (or in three, as some even suggest) is rather misleading, as direct fire weapons do not always hit the same spot (due to movement, twisting, or just plain inaccuracy). By that logic, the "real" damage of ALL weapons should be reduced to only count the damage that was done to the specific location that ended up killing the target. While I imagine at the higher tiers the ratio would still favour the other weapons, the difference with LRMs would be significantly smaller than 50% (or the already-ludicrous 33%).

That's not to say boating LRMs and lobbing them indirectly all the time is at all competitive... but LRMs still do contribute when employed properly (generally, this means in close support of the brawling line, when used for direct fire with artemis and TAG (which gives some very tight grouping, particularly against assaults), with decent direct-fire weapons as backup... and the occasional indirect shots when the situation calls for it).

[sycocys]

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 08:49 AM, said:

Know how I know you're not at all familiar with SRM accuracy?

Even if you miss half your shots you are still doing nearly twice the damage of LRMs. The hit reg fix + speed increase only increases my 50% ratio I held through only 25% of my missiles actually registering.

[Vxheous]

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

Pretty sure that will never be me as I'm not at all fond of telling people how to play

However, I might do this:

"Do not, my friends, become addicted to lurm boating. It will take hold of you, and you will resent it's absence."





You basically rekt your own argument there, champ.

If you include torso twisting, you're hitting all three torsos with lasers, too. Heck, if you're up against a good pilot who's moving and twisting, there is a good chance you're losing half the damage or more to missing completely, getting piles more heat than a LRM boat, getting blasted in the face, and still hitting all three torsos when you do hit.

Oh, and if someone is twisting vs LRM's, that's a huge win for me because they're wasting their time doing that rather than shooting my teammates. After all, LRM hits don't care much at all about facing.

If you have ever tried to torso twist from quirked IS Large Pulse Lasers (and their ~0.5 second burn duration) you would realize that pretty much all that damage ends up on a single component.

[Wolfways]

Lugh, on 02 March 2016 - 05:22 AM, said:

2) LRMs are still bad. Not as bad as they were pre-ecm nerfage, but still on the whole very feast or famine, with a lean towards famine. Even played correctly (within 300m of the rest of the team lobbing over top while bringing other weapons to bear) they make me grind my teeth in frustration.

That bolded part annoys the hell out of me because so many people seem to just accept that that is how LRM's are supposed to be used...short/medium range.
Pgi need to sort out LRM's (and ECM) to make them viable for long range combat. The warning needs to go. Nothing is more damaging to LRM range than that message. If someone wants to keep the message attach it to AMS at least.

[pbiggz]

LRM hard counter