72 replies to this topic

[VirtualRiot]

Oh how I despise this map, I would honestly rather play Therma.
People complain about getting caught on stuff as the main complaint for this map, I never really noticed this, and they really cleaned it up recently.
My main complaint is how one side has such a huge advantage over the other


Blue lines represent possible blue team tactical engagement zones, red for red team.
I mean honestly, what bird brain designed this map. Blue team always has a huge advantage over red team. I don't think I need to explain it, but blue team gets the high ground for free, and the red team can not move into a good position to take the high ground without taking free damage.
It is sad that the best strategy for red team is to move into D4, it is the only spot that offers cover against shooters on both hills. And yet once you get there, there is no where you can go without getting picked off.
Every time I drop on Bog and I get red spawn, I know the match is as good as over. I can not be the only one, if you feel the same please tweet Russ about this.

Edited by VirtualRiot, 08 March 2016 - 05:31 AM.

[kesmai]

Why all the hate? The only thing I miss there are little navi running around to step on...

[Zerberus]

The best strategy for red is ACTUALLY usually to outflank via e4-d6 and hit blue from behind.

But to realize that would require more effort that simply derping into the killzone game affter game. If you play every map like the normandy invasion, you´re going to get cut to shreds just like most particpants in said invasion.

I agree the map needs a bit of a rework, but not solely because people can´t learn how to move in any direction but straight ahead. Though admittedly my idea of flipping the C-D4 hill 180° would make thieir lives easier, too... so now i´m not so sure I want it reworked after all.

Edited by Zerberus, 08 March 2016 - 05:44 AM.

[mogs01gt]

They really messed up when they designed the ramps on those plateaus in C4. one team has to expose their backs to walk up it.

[Remillard]

E4/D6 flank is exceptionally risky simply because once spotted, it's shooting ducks in a barrel. The flanking team has very little cover the entire time. And you can say "well the rest of the team just needs to occupy their attention" except that the the firing lanes between the front and the back of the mountain are so congested that you can only get a handful of mechs with clear shots. The rest are going to wander off and look for other paths and shoot at our happy little flanking team.

I've had more luck around the B3 flank, better cover from LRM/laser mountain, but it's exceptionally predictable so it depends greatly on whether the opposing team is ready for that (frequently yes).

On balance, I think the map is pretty lopsided for starting spawn, but it's a hell of a lot better than Alpine, so I will definitely vote for it over that one ;-).

[pbiggz]

we asked for gatorbait. We got this instead.

[Yozzman]

Dumb *** corridor map with extra bits of branches that trap 100ton mechs...

[Atlasian]

I like this map. Strangely I always get the red spawn and I cannot remember a time I spawned at blue. I just wish to take the fight along the left parameters more often, rather than the usual ones shown in the OP's map. But you know, follow the group, teamwork.

[627]

while I like bog, you are right, the right team get a good head start. And going water is as risky as it is on forest, even more because you can only leave on 3 or 4 stairs.

[Mister Blastman]

VirtualRiot, on 08 March 2016 - 05:31 AM, said:

Oh how I despise this map, I would honestly rather play Therma.
People complain about getting caught on stuff as the main complaint for this map, I never really noticed this, and they really cleaned it up recently.
My main complaint is how one side has such a huge advantage over the other


Blue lines represent possible blue team tactical engagement zones, red for red team.
I mean honestly, what bird brain designed this map. Blue team always has a huge advantage over red team. I don't think I need to explain it, but blue team gets the high ground for free, and the red team can not move into a good position to take the high ground without taking free damage.
It is sad that the best strategy for red team is to move into D4, it is the only spot that offers cover against shooters on both hills. And yet once you get there, there is no where you can go without getting picked off.
Every time I drop on Bog and I get red spawn, I know the match is as good as over. I can not be the only one, if you feel the same please tweet Russ about this.

The problem is your mentality and the italics highlight it. The problem is you feel there is nowhere to go. The problem is you feel you must hide behind the hill. The problem... is you.

D4 is a great spot... IF... you do NOT turn right and and go through the ship and around the hill along the depressed area.

D4 is a great spot... IF... you... GO UP THE HILL!! (ooooooooooh!)

D4 is a great spot... IF... you do not stay down below it hiding in cover.

D4 is a great spot for BOTH teams to assert a dominant position on the map. But... it requires something special. It requires COURAGE!

So, next time, don't go to D4 and prepare to die. Do something when you get there useful! Tank damage, deal damage, Climb that hill and shoot stuff! Get up there, throw your arms high into the air and shout, "I OWN THIS MAP AND YOU WILL ALL BE DESTROYED!"

It isn't complicated.

Hiding with cover isn't a viable long-term strategy.

I hope this post helps you be a more productive player in MWO. I speak bluntly with hopes that others, too, may benefit and learn.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 08 March 2016 - 08:06 AM.

[Pjwned]

KahnWongFuChung, on 08 March 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

I cant believe all you CRYBABY A-holes over maps.For
the longest time we had no maps So now when PGI finally makes new maps you all cry like little bittches.

GO GET A LIFE STOP BEING LITTLE BITTCHES.

It kind of goes without saying that maps should be good.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mister Blastman, on 08 March 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

The problem is your mentality and the italics highlight it. The problem is you feel there is nowhere to go. The problem is you feel you must hide behind the hill. The problem... is you.

D4 is a great spot... IF... you do NOT turn right and and go through the ship and around the hill along the depressed area.

D4 is a great spot... IF... you... GO UP THE HILL!! (ooooooooooh!)

D4 is a great spot... IF... you do not stay down below it hiding in cover.

D4 is a great spot for BOTH teams to assert a dominant position on the map. But... it requires something special. It requires COURAGE!

So, next time, don't go to D4 and prepare to die. Do something when you get there useful! Tank damage, deal damage, Climb that hill and shoot stuff! Get up there, throw your arms high into the air and shout, "I OWN THIS MAP AND YOU WILL ALL BE DESTROYED!"

The fact D4 is the focal point of the map for a single team should be telling of how bad this map is, just like all the other single focal point maps.

Also, I miss old Forest, old Forest was better than new Forest despite being stupidly small.

[Mister Blastman]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 March 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

The fact D4 is the focal point of the map for a single team should be telling of how bad this map is, just like all the other single focal point maps.

Also, I miss old Forest, old Forest was better than new Forest despite being stupidly small.

I think the reason we have a single focal point on every map is because of the game and spawn mode we have--not the maps themselves.

Think about it for a moment... The spawn points are fixed--each team spawns in the same relative spots so the point of conflict will always be at some spot between the two teams. What we see is teams gravitating towards the best tactical position on any map.

Now...

What if we had random spots, with squads scattered across the map... but not only that... they were mixed with each other?

For example,



While the points I illustrated are arbitrary, every group is scattered amongst one another. In no way can three squads of any team group up to form a 12-man squad from the start. To do so would require them to potentially push through another enemy force. All of a sudden flanking and chaotic action is encouraged. The single best vantage point is eliminated. Dynamic gameplay evolves and... NASCAR is DEAD.

Alright, now, consider this...

What if we had bases to capture. Some bases allow respawn, 'mech change and repair. Others allow only repair and defensive weapons. Each base captured builds points like conquest (or reduces enemy tickets). First one to top points or reduces enemy team to zero, wins. Each team starts at opposite corners and base conquest goes from there.



If we did that, chokepoint and NASCAR gameplay would be gone. Problem solved. And we use the same maps we have now.

Not all of the maps are bad--the spawn system and game mode mechanic is what is bad.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mister Blastman, on 08 March 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

All of a sudden flanking and chaotic action is encouraged. The single best vantage point is eliminated. Dynamic gameplay evolves and... NASCAR is DEAD.

So first, you invalidated your point right here since NASCAR is caused by flanking. It is the result of too many trying to flank forcing the team to either shift or die. It isn't specific to only big map features, but he feature in which an engagement is occurring that provides semi cover to a team. You will see NASCAR on polar for example which lacks a central defined feature (well to a degree).

The single best vantage point is easily defeated by map design as well, Polar is a fairly decent example of that as there is very little terrain that is perfect like there are on many other maps. I really wish PGI would release the heat maps for the current selection of maps because I would be great interested in Polar.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 March 2016 - 09:23 AM.

[STEF_]

VirtualRiot, on 08 March 2016 - 05:31 AM, said:

Oh how I despise this map, I would honestly rather play Therma.
People complain about getting caught on stuff as the main complaint for this map, I never really noticed this, and they really cleaned it up recently.
My main complaint is how one side has such a huge advantage over the other


Blue lines represent possible blue team tactical engagement zones, red for red team.
I mean honestly, what bird brain designed this map. Blue team always has a huge advantage over red team. I don't think I need to explain it, but blue team gets the high ground for free, and the red team can not move into a good position to take the high ground without taking free damage.
It is sad that the best strategy for red team is to move into D4, it is the only spot that offers cover against shooters on both hills. And yet once you get there, there is no where you can go without getting picked off.
Every time I drop on Bog and I get red spawn, I know the match is as good as over. I can not be the only one, if you feel the same please tweet Russ about this.

It's my fav map.
Currently I have 1.71 W/L ratio.

I think that I know how to play this map, so, I can say that your examination is plain wrong.


edit: the interesting thing is that when I spawn in the red spot, I'm happy 'cause 90% of time my team win.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 08 March 2016 - 09:25 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Stefka Kerensky, on 08 March 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

It's my fav map.
Currently I have 1.71 W/L ratio.

I think that I know how to play this map, so, I can say that your examination is plain wrong.

I have a 2.34 W/L ratio, does that mean I know how to play it better than you? He isn't wrong, the red team is either forced to camp spawn area, use D4 (noob trab to stay here), or really hope the enemy doesn't scout a C4 push.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 March 2016 - 09:26 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 March 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

So first, you invalidated your point right here since NASCAR is caused by flanking. It is the result of too many trying to flank forcing the team to either shift or die.

The single best vantage point is easily defeated by map design as well, Polar is a fairly decent example of that as there is very little terrain that is perfect like there are on many other maps. I really wish PGI would release the heat maps for the current selection of maps because I would be great interested in Polar.

NASCAR is not flanking nor is it caused by flanking. NASCAR is caused by bads being scared of being shot at so they run like hell to avoid getting shot at.

Flanking is a secondary force moving away from the main group and striking the enemy from their side or behind to draw fire so the main force can strike hard.

NASCAR is not flanking.

NASCAR is a symptom of the problem.

The problem is the spawn and gameplay system the maps use.

Note I never said the maps were perfect. They aren't. Canyon network, for instance, has a huge flaw where one side of the map has access to cross the ravines with land bridges while the other side has a huge gap where they can't.

But fix the spawn system and superior gameplay results where NASCAR is discouraged.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mister Blastman, on 08 March 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

NASCAR is not flanking nor is it caused by flanking. NASCAR is caused by bads being scared of being shot at so they run like hell to avoid getting shot at.

NASCAR happens even in comp play, and it is the result of too many trying to flank to get better angles, so no, you don't understand it. In other words, the flanking body suddenly becomes the main body.

Yes some people do it when they should just push, but it would still occur.

Fixing maps is more about allowing for more varied strategies and tactics, not about fixing NASCAR.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 March 2016 - 09:32 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 March 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

NASCAR happens even in comp play, and it is the result of too many trying to flank to get better angles, so no, you don't understand it. In other words, the flanking body suddenly becomes the main body.

Yes some people do it when they should just push, but it would still occur.

You don't understand flanking.

This is flanking:



If the main body moves in one direction, they aren't flanking, they are moving and repositioning.

Look below how the main body strikes head-on while other units move to the sides and strike to draw fire or pick off targets from a better angle. That is also flanking.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mister Blastman, on 08 March 2016 - 09:35 AM, said:

You don't understand flanking.

This is flanking:

If the main body moves in one direction, they aren't flanking, they are moving and repositioning.

I understand flanking, NASCAR is the result of the main body deciding "screw this" and joining to flanking movement generally because the main body is no longer actively engaged or never was engaged. Thus turning it into a rotation of the main body rather than an actual flank, but the point is, the original intention is people want to flank, the problem is that too many try to flank forcing the main body to either join the flank (and become part of the rotation) or die as the main body without support.

It is a problem of people being scared/greedy with regards to wanting shots on the enemy and isn't something random spawn locations will fix, neither will changing maps outside of removing cover period.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 March 2016 - 09:44 AM.