144 replies to this topic

[Zerberus]

At tier 3 and after 5 years playing (and having played against just about everyone at some point incl known high level players like Peef, Jager or Koreanese) I´m going to go out on a limb here and say that I can more or less tell whether I`m paired with or up against T1-2 or T4-5 players, or a mix, just by looking at what they do and do not do. For ex. targeting, using cover, not exposing themselves, deathballing /splitting up /scattering like scared cats, communicating enemy location and calling targets, actually teling people when they plan to do something risky /important or not... the list goes on and on and on.

On my T4 alt, I´m dead certain I´ve never seen a T1 player, because it´s pretty easymode compared to my main, and even my teammates are more often than not ... ah, let´s just not go there...

While I do believe that the MM may loosen somewhat during low population times, I do not believe it loosens far enough to allow t1 and t5 in the same match except maybe under the most extreme circumstances... Certainly not a regular occurrence.

But, like just about anything any player has ever said about skill matching, nobody has any real tangible proof, or they would present it. We had exactly the same discussion who knows how often while using Elo, and nobody was ever able to provide more than anecdotal evidence of subjective truth there, either...

Edited by Zerberus, 09 March 2016 - 09:16 AM.

[Bilbo]

eminus, on 09 March 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

Do you have a link of that information? I would like to read it and I appreciate it much if you can provide it.

The first mention is from here but there are others I can't be bothered to find:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4719837
It's also been mentioned in a town hall or two.

"Because matches are based on Tiers, we're trying to make sure that you are playing against people who are around the same level of skill. That being said, breaking into Tier 1 is just a way for us to make sure you never play anyone in tier 4 or 5. Anyone who has a slightly positive Win/Loss ratio should eventually end up in Tier 1 if they are consistent in their play and match performance."

[Tier 1 Smurf]

Zerberus, on 09 March 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

At tier 3 and after 5 years, I´m going to go out on a limb her ans say that I can more or less tell whether Im paired with or up against T1-2 or T4-5 players, just by looking at what they do and do not do.

I am sure you absolutely can. I certainly can. Obviously tags like EMP are a good indicator too.

[Sandpit]

GreyNovember, on 08 March 2016 - 08:00 PM, said:

You aren't telling us anything though that we can use to help.

You have not told us your mech. How you go about a match. What kind of targets you engage. Whether you try to poke or not in your brawler setup.

Is your actual problem PSR, or are you upset that you are losing matches, and there's an arrow pointing down on the match lost screen?

that's because I'm starting to get the sneaky suspicion that it's due to just wanting to be able to say

Douglas grizzly, on 08 March 2016 - 07:35 PM, said:

but i have learned alot of higher teir players run alternate accounts on their own admission that they use to go noob smashing with.

if you were truly serious about wanting advice and help you'd have provided the info quoted above and that has been asked of you since page 1.

There are several that are more than willing to help you, but you seem to just want to complain about tiers instead of discussing ways to help you improve your tier rating

[Tier 1 Smurf]

Bilbo, on 09 March 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

The first mention is from here but there are others I can't be bothered to find:

The first mention is from the patch notes when PSR was implimented. Where it states> "A Tier 1 player will never play against a Tier 4 or Tier 5 player."

[Bilbo]

Tier 1 Smurf, on 09 March 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

The first mention is from the patch notes when PSR was implimented. Where it states> "A Tier 1 player will never play against a Tier 4 or Tier 5 player."

Entirely possible, but that is one of the references I can't be bothered to find as I don't remember which patch introduced PSR.

[Azalie]

Bilbo, on 09 March 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

Entirely possible, but that is one of the references I can't be bothered to find as I don't remember which patch introduced PSR.

Here is that thread about the T4 dad being matched against his T1 son. The link skips to page two as that's when he said it straight forward instead of his opening wall of text that I'm not reading a second time.

http://mwomercs.com/...es/page__st__20

[Tier 1 Smurf]

Azalie, on 09 March 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

Here is that thread about the T4 dad being matched against his T1 son. The link skips to page two as that's when he said it straight forward instead of his opening wall of text that I'm not reading a second time.

http://mwomercs.com/...es/page__st__20

It's entirely possible something is/was broken with it, however that claim of that player is as far as I can tell completely unsubstantiated with no proof his sons account is even T1 or a screen shot that they were even in solo quick play together, so cannot be believed.

I'd personally just see the entire album of T4-3 with not a single T1 player in any of the screenshots over this wild claim.

[Zerberus]

Tier 1 Smurf, on 09 March 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

It's entirely possible something is/was broken with it, however that claim of that player is as far as I can tell completely unsubstantiated with no proof his sons account is even T1 or a screen shot that they were even in solo quick play together, so cannot be believed.

I'd personally just see the entire album of T4-3 with not a single T1 player in any of the screenshots over this wild claim.

That´s the problem: everybody says things, and people lap it up like kittens to milk, no matter how preposterous it is, and then claim that those asking for proof are the ones that need to provide proof that it´s not true.

The Burden of Proof was apparently reversed in 2011 with teh inception of MWO, it is now the job of those stating a claim cannot be true to prove it´s untruth, instead of the burden of proof lying with the person making the claim.

This is also known as "the god argument". It basically says "You can´t prove it doesn´t exist, so even though I can´t prove it does, it must be true anyway", It is a logical fallacy very closly related to "Argument from ignorance", an example of which being "There is something in the sky, I don´t know what it is, so it must be aliens".. You already say you don´t know what it is, and therefore you have no clue what it could be, so what suddenly gives you the omniscience to definitively state what it is?

http://www.nizkor.or...n-of-proof.html

Most people just better hope that if tehy ever end up in court, the Judge and jury dont´subscribe to such bassackwards thinking. Because at that point, the system reverses to guilty until proven innoocent, with the burden of proof on teh defendant. And since we jumped from the stone age right into 2000, we never experienced the mideval period where hundreds of thousands of people were executed becaure they couldn´t prove they weren´t witches, even though nobody could prove that they were, either.

So, in that vein, I have a 300 yard long penis... Now, somebody prove me wrong, because that´s the way it works these days, right?

Edited by Zerberus, 09 March 2016 - 11:14 AM.

[Sandpit]

Tier 1 Smurf, on 09 March 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

It's entirely possible something is/was broken with it, however that claim of that player is as far as I can tell completely unsubstantiated with no proof his sons account is even T1 or a screen shot that they were even in solo quick play together, so cannot be believed.

I'd personally just see the entire album of T4-3 with not a single T1 player in any of the screenshots over this wild claim.

I don't dispute the OP's claims in that thread, because it's working as intended. In order to offset the advantage of being in a premade and having the ability to bring mechs and builds that compliment one another your PSR is averaged for all players in the premade.

If you're wanting to help a new player by grouping up with them, you're in a much higher Tier (meaning 1 or 2), and you want to form a premade, then create an alt account used to drop with them.

Otherwise, accept that if you're going to form a premade and they're in a lower tier in contrast to your higher tier the entire premade will face opponents based on the group's averaged tier rating

[Zerberus]

Sandpit, on 09 March 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

I don't dispute the OP's claims in that thread, because it's working as intended. In order to offset the advantage of being in a premade and having the ability to bring mechs and builds that compliment one another your PSR is averaged for all players in the premade.

If you're wanting to help a new player by grouping up with them, you're in a much higher Tier (meaning 1 or 2), and you want to form a premade, then create an alt account used to drop with them.

Otherwise, accept that if you're going to form a premade and they're in a lower tier in contrast to your higher tier the entire premade will face opponents based on the group's averaged tier rating

However, this only holds true in the group queue. Please correct me if I´m wrong, but from what I understand father and son were dropping separately but solo, effectively ruling that out as an explanation

Edited by Zerberus, 09 March 2016 - 11:17 AM.

[Sandpit]

Zerberus, on 09 March 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

However, this only holds true in the group queue. Please correct me if I´m wrong, but from what I understand father and son were dropping separately but solo, effectively ruling that out as an explanation

I understood it as they were grouping up. If they're solo dropping and it happens that's a bug and I suggested they report it

[Tier 1 Smurf]

Sandpit, on 09 March 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

I don't dispute the OP's claims in that thread, because it's working as intended. In order to offset the advantage of being in a premade and having the ability to bring mechs and builds that compliment one another your PSR is averaged for all players in the premade.

If you're wanting to help a new player by grouping up with them, you're in a much higher Tier (meaning 1 or 2), and you want to form a premade, then create an alt account used to drop with them.

Otherwise, accept that if you're going to form a premade and they're in a lower tier in contrast to your higher tier the entire premade will face opponents based on the group's averaged tier rating

Sure, but he never states he was using group queue.

[Zerberus]

Tier 1 Smurf, on 09 March 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

Sure, but he never states he was using group queue.

Exactly, he actually specifically stated "quick play", which to me says "solo queue"

Edited by Zerberus, 09 March 2016 - 11:25 AM.

[Sandpit]

Zerberus, on 09 March 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

Exactly, he actually specifically stated "quick play", which to me says "solo queue"

uhm quickplay has absolutely nothing to do with dropping solo or as a group

[Zerberus]

Sandpit, on 09 March 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

uhm quickplay has absolutely nothing to do with dropping solo or as a group

Admittedly I haven´t dropped as a group in pug for quite some time becasue grouping up is counterproductive to playing more than 2-3 matches an hour (primarily due to everyone always wanting to switch out mechs every round, thereby putting the grpoup over limmits, so someone else has to switch and so on and so forth), but I distinctly remember the group launch button not saying "quick play" but "launch". Hence my association of "quick play" with "solo"...

Edited by Zerberus, 09 March 2016 - 11:35 AM.

[Bilbo]

Azalie, on 09 March 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

Here is that thread about the T4 dad being matched against his T1 son. The link skips to page two as that's when he said it straight forward instead of his opening wall of text that I'm not reading a second time.

http://mwomercs.com/...es/page__st__20

Unfortunately, through four pages in the thread he offers no objective proof that he actually played against his son or that his son is tier 1. If both are true then, as Sandpit stated, it would be a bug.

[Azalie]

Sandpit, on 09 March 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

uhm quickplay has absolutely nothing to do with dropping solo or as a group

He specifically stated they were not grouped up and even stated that on one of the drops they were on opposing teams. Therefore they absolutely could not have been in a group with his son. And he then went on in a post about not knowing how to switch to group play so I believe it's safe to say he wasn't grouped up with a different bunch.

I still think on periods of low player population the "+ or - 2" tier system can become a "+ AND - 2" tier system resulting in 3rd tier players pulling a T1 into an otherwise bottom tier match or a T5 into an otherwise top tier match.


I'm not saying I specifically agree with his claims or that I disagree with them. I just agree with the line of thought that the PSR system should at least be looked at for possible bugs...or perhaps reformed slightly.

These calls for objective proof though honestly make me laugh. This is a forum for a video game on the internet...not a trial in court. I remember fondly about 12+ years ago when people were at least sometimes taken for their word.....long before "pics for it didn't happen" spread like wildfire. Boy times sure have changed.

Edited by Azalie, 09 March 2016 - 11:49 AM.

[Roadkill]

Zerberus, on 09 March 2016 - 08:26 AM, said:

I wouldn't be so sure, I've also gone down on a 478 MS within less than an hour of rising with a 413, as well as gone up on less than 200 in a TAG + Narc Mistlynx... I'm pretty sure match score alone is by far not everything, I think (and dev posts would support) that it's how you got that match score that matters more than anything.

As stated in another thread, I'll see if I can get some screens to illustrate my point, as I normally couldn't care less and therefore don't have any at this time.

Win/Loss is more important than Match Score when it comes to PSR going up or down.

Your "up on <200" makes perfect sense... if that game was a win. Your PSR goes up on >100 in a win.

Even the 400s can make sense, though going down on a 478 match score in a loss requires you to have misread damage as match score (and even then it's a stretch).

We're not working from perfect data here, so of course there are going to be exceptions. And as you said, how you get your match score weighs in on the result as well. But my experience has been very consistent and I do pay attention to every drop. In my games, I have yet to see a game result that doesn't fit the 100/250/400 Match Score patterns (factoring in whether each was a win or loss). I have no doubt that there are other factors, but match score + win/loss is by far the most accurate indicator of PSR change.

[Sandpit]

Azalie, on 09 March 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

These calls for objective proof though honestly make me laugh. This is a forum for a video game on the internet...not a trial in court. I remember fondly about 12+ years ago when people were at least sometimes taken for their word.....long before "pics for it didn't happen" spread like wildfire. Boy times sure have changed.

You obviously don't spend much time on the forums disputing "factual" claims of "statistics" if you think more people should just take the word of other players around here when it comes to factual representations.