283 replies to this topic

[Malleus011]

At this point I think I'd be happy with an LRM20 specific spread quirk on the ARC-2R. They'd still feel a bit shortchanged compared to the previous sets, but at least I'd be reassured that PGI realizes what an Archer's role is.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Has everyone been including the 10% damage reduction bonuses to LT and RT on all all Archer variants during this discussion?

It has missile bay doors. That means 10% damage reduction bonus to LT and RT when doors are closed. Works that way for every Mech with doors - the component with doors gets a damage reduction "quirk."

[Xavori]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 March 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

OH NOZE ANOTHER PERSON NOT ACTUALLY READ ANYTHING PAST TITLE!


who said anything about buying the mechs based on Quirks? I think I have seen exactly one person crowing about NOT buying it, but that's about it.

Damnit, now I'm back to 34,580 posts behind again

[Felicitatem Parco]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 March 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

OH NOZE ANOTHER PERSON NOT ACTUALLY READ ANYTHING PAST TITLE!


who said anything about buying the mechs based on Quirks? I think I have seen exactly one person crowing about NOT buying it, but that's about it.

Look up this page. Someone asked for a refund because it lacked quirks.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

A missile boat with ECM....maybe the scrub queue will get out of the Atlas now and into something that does not eat assault tonnage...

can't say I spend my days worrying about what the scrubs in the underhive do......

[Xavori]

Prosperity Park, on 11 March 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

Look up this page. Someone asked for a refund because it lacked quirks.

I'm not asking for a refund, but I'm not going to buy it or phoenix hawk because I'm not really interested in spending real money on bad mechs. And the Archer is definitely a bad mech vs existing mechs, and the Phoenix Hawk isn't worth the risk that releasing mechs that are worse than existing mechs is the new PGI standard.

[Roughneck Cobra]

Just wanted point out, the doors being open or closed wont matter when Im aiming for that stuck out, obvious cockpit between the launchers, may aswell have a bullseye on it saying hit here to blind and/or kill me xD

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 March 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

If Jman can mount around 9 tons of ammo in his HBK-4J, I'm pretty sure the Griffin can mount enough ammo, it just doesn't have the allure the Atlas does which I'm pretty is the reason people will still not take the Archer over their lrm Atlases and Stalkers.

yeah, but why would you use the GRF when the 4J gets 35% Cooldown on it's rack? ECM really isn't all that any more, in and of itself.

[Zerberus]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

9 tons of ammo for a pair of LRM10s.

See...I have been observing this quite a bit when I solo queue.

A scrub queue LRM build has to "sound impressive" a pair of 10s is not alluring at all to someone who wants to Lolpha LRMs onto everything. You really cannot even start to think of something being worth it in their eyes until we are talking about a pair of 15s minimally, and a pair of 20s is even better.

By the time you burn tonnage for a pair of 15s or 20s on a 50-55 ton mech...you are out of tonnage for ammo.

The problem is simple really, it is hard for you to rationalize because you are thinking logically. It took me a while to wrap my head around it as well...until I recently had a conversation with a new recruit to CWDG about what they liked about LRMs (I was having a conversation with him about hard counters, and why they are inferior....).

Once he explained the appeal to me...it became clear.

When it comes to LRMs in the scrub queue...bigger is better...and more ammo must be more win.

While anyone with half a brain cell knows LRMs suck, completely...the "LRMz R Gud 4 stuf 2 gaiz!" crowd sees it that more LRMs must be better than a few LRMs.

They suck total donkey balls, even when boated with 45-60+ tubes... But that´s EXACTLY why it´s so much fun to watch bads die to them and then whine about it on the forums, which is conversely the reason I love to use them in the solo queue.

They are the ultimate chaff/wheat separator, who`s trying and who`s just crying, and how hard, is easily discernible by their reaction to incoming LRMs

Yeonne Greene, on 11 March 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

A C3 ZR-1, eh? Then we are alike, you and I, since I have your car's descendant, a 1990 C4 ZR-1...which rolled off the assembly line the same year as I did.

I'll raise a beer stein, but I still want to get things straight because the point you are trying to make remains disingenuous.
...
...
Now we can get back to 'Mechs.

I must admit, you make some good points that maybe i myself hadn´t considered.

And now, we drink

Edited by Zerberus, 11 March 2016 - 10:40 AM.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 March 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

can't say I spend my days worrying about what the scrubs in the underhive do......

At this point...scrubs in T3 end up in my solo queue matches quite a bit...and it absolutely kills me to see that kind of garbage in a match on my side.

EDIT: Tangential point; however, how the **** does that stuff make it to T3 even?

Edited by Gyrok, 11 March 2016 - 10:35 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 March 2016 - 10:31 AM, said:

yeah, but why would you use the GRF when the 4J gets 35% Cooldown on it's rack? ECM really isn't all that any more, in and of itself.

True, but we are talking about people who don't know any better (like how important head TAG is over ECM).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 March 2016 - 10:35 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister Blastman, on 11 March 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

Don't the missile doors give a 10% durability buff to the armor?

we really don't know how they work on the Archer, lol.

[Barantor]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

EDIT: Tangential point; however, how the **** does that stuff make it to T3 even?

Because tiers don't mean crap?

If I can just **** around like I have been and get tier 2, then there are probably not any more pros in tier 1 than tier 3, they just played more hours.

[Bishop Steiner]

Prosperity Park, on 11 March 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

Has everyone been including the 10% damage reduction bonuses to LT and RT on all all Archer variants during this discussion?

It has missile bay doors. That means 10% damage reduction bonus to LT and RT when doors are closed. Works that way for every Mech with doors - the component with doors gets a damage reduction "quirk."

Yes, several people actually, thanks for asking, and actually, since these doors are destructible, a first for any mech to my knowledge, we actualyl do not know how they will function.

Prosperity Park, on 11 March 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

Look up this page. Someone asked for a refund because it lacked quirks.

Big whoop.

Seems as over reactionary as someone's "Oh noze ECM HERO P2W!". And perhaps Khetti could start IDK, using the quote feature to actually add context. Otherwise one generally must assume it's directed at the OP.

[Duke Nedo]

Prosperity Park, on 11 March 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

Has everyone been including the 10% damage reduction bonuses to LT and RT on all all Archer variants during this discussion?

It has missile bay doors. That means 10% damage reduction bonus to LT and RT when doors are closed. Works that way for every Mech with doors - the component with doors gets a damage reduction "quirk."

Aye, this may or may not help with durability so that's possibly fine, making up for the lack of/weak ST structure quirks, but it doesn't make up for the lack of useful weapons quirks. Just compare to existing heavies and it doesn't add anything to my hangar except destructible doors.

[Roadkill]

10% missile velocity quirks are basically wastes. I'd have been disappointed with 20% because LRMs are so freaking slow to start with.

10% is basically saying "let's throw something meaningless on there to make it look like it has quirks."

I mean, seriously? The Warhammer gets 50% PPC velocity signature weapon quirks and the Archer gets 10% for its signature weapon? Y'all do realize that a 50% LRM velocity quirk would still leave them pathetically slow, right? Unlike a 50% PPC velocity quirk that makes it practically insta-hit?

*sigh*

[Aerei]

I do understand the notion of not wanting to create a heavily quirked Mad Dog LRM 5 build, but for me, the problem is less the quality of the quirks, and more that they're...kinda backwards. The best missile quirks are on the 2Rs, but that's also the mech with three missile ports. The best energy quirks are on the Archer with the second least energy hardpoints.

I'm actually willing to argue that on a good team, the Archer with ECM might be the most viable, even with the terrible quirks. Being able to shell out damage with LRMs, while providing ECM coverage, could be devastating on maps like Polar Highlands, or any map where long range skirmishes and LRM boating can be quite common. It's a reliable, easy way to control the long range game that even pugs should be able to wrap their head around.

[Xavori]

Roadkill, on 11 March 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

10% missile velocity quirks are basically wastes. I'd have been disappointed with 20% because LRMs are so freaking slow to start with.

10% is basically saying "let's throw something meaningless on there to make it look like it has quirks."

I mean, seriously? The Warhammer gets 50% PPC velocity signature weapon quirks and the Archer gets 10% for its signature weapon? Y'all do realize that a 50% LRM velocity quirk would still leave them pathetically slow, right? Unlike a 50% PPC velocity quirk that makes it practically insta-hit?

*sigh*

Off topic, but you do realize nobody puts PPC's on their Warhammers, right? The large pulse laser uses fewers slots, fewer tons, has more damage, and less heat. The only thing a PPC would give you is range, but the maps in MWO tend to shape fights into 300-400m battles, and the LPL rules that range.

Of course, the warhammers have plenty of non-PPC quirks that still make them excellent mechs.

[FupDup]

Xavori, on 11 March 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

...The large pulse laser uses...fewer tons...

LPL is equal weight as the PPC, actually.

[Malleus011]

Aerei, on 11 March 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

I do understand the notion of not wanting to create a heavily quirked Mad Dog LRM 5 build, but for me, the problem is less the quality of the quirks, and more that they're...kinda backwards. The best missile quirks are on the 2Rs, but that's also the mech with three missile ports. The best energy quirks are on the Archer with the second least energy hardpoints.

I'm actually willing to argue that on a good team, the Archer with ECM might be the most viable, even with the terrible quirks. Being able to shell out damage with LRMs, while providing ECM coverage, could be devastating on maps like Polar Highlands, or any map where long range skirmishes and LRM boating can be quite common. It's a reliable, easy way to control the long range game that even pugs should be able to wrap their head around.

The quirks are backwards because, in Battletech, the 2R's twin LRM20s make it a better bombardment vehicle than the other models which use smaller racks. However, in MWO bizarro world, multiple LRM5s are more powerful and far more dangerous than bigger, heavier weapons.

(Why is it that MWO manages to get so much of Battletech exactly backwards?)