283 replies to this topic

[Damia Savon]

Ted Wayz, on 11 March 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

I don't think this post is "I want my new toy to be OP" as much as "I do not understand or use LRM boats but I will comment anyway". In other words it is easy to be confused or underwhelmed by things you do not understand.

A couple months back there was a thread about LRM boats and how to use them effectively. I really think PGI read the thread because the quirks for the Archer are spot on.

The mobility quirks allow the Archer to get in and out of trouble, stay mobile, and twist and react to danger. These are all keys to being a good LRM boat. If you think LRM boats sit still and rely on others for locks you are doing it wrong. The Archer quirks promote you doing it right.

PGI quirked the secondary weapons which is appropriate. They also quirked the primaries (LRMs) on the variants with a lesser number of tubes. Very smart. Adding cooldown quirk to an monster with 9 tubes that is more than likely going to sport at least 6 x LRM5 would have been ridiculous. Especially with a cooldown module. The velocity quirk will make the 5W a real beast, it really needs no more help.

Interesting choice on the Tempest. Generic missile heat quirk will allow for a SRM6, LPL or a large tube boat. The structure quirks speak to the former.

Adding ST structure quirks to the XL equipped versions makes perfect sense but one Unseen too late maybe? To all you hypocrites that agree that this is appropriate for the Archer, or even find the structure quirks lacking, please revisit your comments on the Rifleman. Which btw is so good you hardly ever see them on the battlefield. Pat yourselves on the back for that.

Overall PGI did a good job on this mech. And this is coming from someone who actually knows a thing or two about LRMs.


Yeah, think there have been a few posts about this.

You might know something about lrms but apparently failed chart reading 101.

The base model has a standard engine and some CT buffs. Never mind you will need to run an xl and those side torsos....It did get decent lrm quirks for its 3 launchers

The 5s has an xl engine but no torso structure buffs but hey it has arm and whoa..leg buffs. It has 0 missile quirks despite 5 hard points but hey a couple mild energy and laser quirks for its whopping 4 energy weapons. Just screams laser vomit to me.

The 5w is entirely missile dependent and got a mild velocity quirk for lrms when most will likely make it an srm build. No heat reducing quirks or cool down quirks. It did get some structure quirks for it xl though.

The tempest got all the structure quirks which frankly all the variants should have. Despite the same weapon load as the 2s it got a worthless missile and energy quirks.

Basic quirks should have been the structure quirks of the tempest and missile quirks of the cat c4 limited to lrms across the basic variants.

[wanderer]

Quote

And people also forget that missiles recently received an overall buff. The spread was reduced and the cooldown was reduced on the larger tubes. This is why they did not need primary weapon quirks for the Archers with large number of tubes but added them for the variants with small number of launchers.

Incorrect, partially. Spread was marginally reduced, cooldown was increased.

Quote

• IS LRM20 spread reduced to 6.2m (down from 7.0m). Cooldown of the weapon from 4.75s to 5.5s.
• IS LRM15 spread reduced to 5.2m (down from 5.7m). Cooldown of the weapon from 4.25s to 4.75s.
• IS LRM10 spread reduced to 4.2m (down from 4.3m). Cooldown of the weapon from 3.75s to 4.0s.
• Clan LRM20 spread reduced to 6.2m (down from 7.0m). Cooldown of the weapon from 5.0s to 6.5s.
• Clan LRM15 spread reduced to 5.2m (down from 5.7m). Cooldown of the weapon from 4.5s to 5.5s.
• Clan LRM10 spread reduced to 4.2m (down from 4.3m). Cooldown of the weapon from 4.0s to 4.5s.

[MrJeffers]

Ted Wayz, on 11 March 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Weapon quirks do not make a good mech or bad mech. Again it seems that there are not many people that LRM talking about LRMs.

And people also forget that missiles recently received an overall buff. The spread was reduced and the cooldown was reduced on the larger tubes. This is why they did not need primary weapon quirks for the Archers with large number of tubes but added them for the variants with small number of launchers.

Bizarre structure quirks? They quirked the CT and ST for XL Archers. Is that really that hard to figure out?

Bizarre mobility quirks? Now I really know you don't LRM. LRM boats need to mobile.

They buffed the secondary systems, just like on your Warhammer. Go figure!

But I am guessing this will be lost on everyone. By all means push to buff the Archer, I look forward to your tears before you cry for the hard nerf.

It's bizarre because it doesn't line up with other mechs and the quirks they recieved, including mechs that are nearly identical.

Sader325, on 11 March 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

[Thunderbird Anthares]

spread might have been reduced, but that does not change the fact that IS LRM 15/20 are straight up crap and LRMs in general are still considered bottom of the barrel trash that only trash players use

[Vashramire]

Xavori, on 11 March 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

So you're an advocate for not buying them initially and then buying later with c-bills when they've been fixed. (cuz that's what logically follows from your claim)

That might be swell for players since you'll get a balanced mech without spending real money, but it's bad for PGI's business model which kinda requires new purchases to keep the game up and running. It's also a pretty serious marketing blow to all future mech purchases if you always know that they're going to be weaker than existing mechs and then fixed later when you can get them for free.

I say buy them if you think you will enjoy them with whatever means you feel comfortable with. Any game that launches a new mech, hero, champion, class available for cash is going to be subject to the same scrutiny of launching weak or strong and balancing accordingly. Developers aren't going to win that fight. Nothing starts out perfect. That's part of the risk of putting down money before the product even gets into player hands and as adults people need to acknowledge they are taking that risk.

As far as my original statement goes, I was only referencing that since balance isn't perfect that I would rather it be underpowered than overpowered on launch. No one wants to drop with game breakingly strong mechs that will likely get overnerfed. Even though if they were going to be nerfed, that skates the line of P2W too closely since it would be an even worse marketing disaster if they were OP till say they were nerfed when they come out for C-bills.

And this is all without knowing how it performs at all. Even with the quirks it may be fine or really good. Numbers on paper don't beat actual hands on testing. As much as people can complain about them now, we don't know anything yet.

[Bishop Steiner]

And regardless, my money is spent, I don't think the quirks make or break the design as a whole, in this instance, but do still find the Quirk Set disappointing in direction and execution.

The Archer was never poised to be a Tier 0 MetaLord Death Machine, and those who were expecting insane levels of SRM or "Generic" Missile Buffs really had nothing to base that on. And there IS a slim chance that the lessons learned remapping the Jenner, Dragon and Catapult Hitboxes might leave the Archer tougher than anticipated (though all those but the Jenner also got structure quirks of note, and the Jenner is not exactly lauded for it's hitboxes or durability).

Seeing quirks more addressed to it's actual lore roles and fluff would have been nice, though. (Tough, reliable, boring vanilla LRM mech, with some secondary weapon systems)

[Scout Derek]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 March 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

And regardless, my money is spent, I don't think the quirks make or break the design as a whole, in this instance, but do still find the Quirk Set disappointing in direction and execution.

The Archer was never poised to be a Tier 0 MetaLord Death Machine, and those who were expecting insane levels of SRM or "Generic" Missile Buffs really had nothing to base that on. And there IS a slim chance that the lessons learned remapping the Jenner, Dragon and Catapult Hitboxes might leave the Archer tougher than anticipated (though all those but the Jenner also got structure quirks of note, and the Jenner is not exactly lauded for it's hitboxes or durability).

Seeing quirks more addressed to it's actual lore roles and fluff would have been nice, though. (Tough, reliable, boring vanilla LRM mech, with some secondary weapon systems)

I bet you 500K Cbills that somehow those quirks will change either before or in the next big patch after March 15th.

[Bishop Steiner]

Scout Derek, on 11 March 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

I bet you 500K Cbills that somehow those quirks will change either before or in the next big patch after March 15th.

We can hope. I'd gladly spend 500k c bills and some IRL money to avoid it falling into line like I predict.

[Malleus011]

The quirks won't make or break the Archer, but right now I can see the Catapult C1, C4, Jagermech A, Marauder 5D, and Orion V and VA all being superior LRM boats in the heavy class mainly because of their quirks. And that's just sad.

[Gyrok]

wanderer, on 11 March 2016 - 01:54 PM, said:

"We need intelligence for I wish I was as smart as Gyrok."
-wanderer

FTFY!

Lost of misquotes lately...what is up with that?

Edited by Gyrok, 11 March 2016 - 03:51 PM.

[LegendaryArticuno]

Sader325, on 11 March 2016 - 07:01 AM, said:

...PGI's not even trying.

[Bishop Steiner]

Interestingly, Paul just said on the livestream that the Quirks posted were released before finalized...... and adjustments are being looked into

[C E Dwyer]

Sader325, on 11 March 2016 - 07:01 AM, said:

Guess this means we get AMS quirks and no structure on the Phoenix Hawk to keep it inline with the classic mistakes P.G.I make.

you'd think that the Archer would get structure quirks to equal the War Hammer or the Marauder, if its keeping in line with the 'classic' range, or gasp, Missile quirks that are better than them , but apparently not.

Russ seems to forget that They made quirks up, to band aid their inability to Balance Clan I.S. tech so of course people get hung up on them, as they can make or break a mech as much as hit boxes do.

Bottom line is people like myself will buy it and mech like the PXH for old times sake.

Its the casuals and the influx of new people that he needs to worry about. People that don't care about the lore or the past of Battletech/mechwarrior, they just want to blow up crap, in big robots and they will see quirks as a selling point.

Bishop Steiner, on 11 March 2016 - 04:21 PM, said:

Interestingly, Paul just said on the livestream that the Quirks posted were released before finalized...... and adjustments are being looked into

Uhuh...you could have posted this after my prophetic bull shine, made me look slightly less silly, but having said that, the selling point is still valid, if not the sarcastic part above it

[Ted Wayz]

MrJeffers, on 11 March 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

It's bizarre because it doesn't line up with other mechs and the quirks they recieved, including mechs that are nearly identical.

No comparison to the Rifleman? How odd and unexpected.

Edited by Ted Wayz, 11 March 2016 - 05:02 PM.

[MrJeffers]

Ted Wayz, on 11 March 2016 - 05:01 PM, said:

No comparison to the Rifleman? How odd and unexpected.

When did the Rifleman become 70 tons?

[Ted Wayz]

MrJeffers, on 11 March 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

When did the Rifleman become 70 tons?

It didn't. But they didn't follow the book by making the Rifleman less durable than the Jagermech. The Archer quirks more resemble the Rifleman quirks, which are both post Blackjackgeddon fix.

But then you would have to ask PGI their reasoning on quirks. Seems to be a mystery to everyone else.

[MrJeffers]

Ted Wayz, on 11 March 2016 - 05:10 PM, said:

It didn't. But they didn't follow the book by making the Rifleman less durable than the Jagermech. The Archer quirks more resemble the Rifleman quirks, which are both post Blackjackgeddon fix.

But then you would have to ask PGI their reasoning on quirks. Seems to be a mystery to everyone else.

And yet they havent gone back and changed the Warhammer's quirks, and they are revisiting the Archer... Hmm me thinks you attempt at a point is wrong. Considering all the salty posts/threads you have been creating lately, I don't know why you are trying and failing to white knight so hard. Seems trollish, or playing devil's advocate to be less accusatory.

[Roadkill]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 March 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

Have always disagreed with the racks being inferior, tbh. While yes the results are inferior, on avg, considering they weigh half as much and require less crits, the actual results for weight/space is NOT inferior.

I don't even think the results are inferior. They're very slightly more vulnerable to AMS, but that's it. In fact I often feel like a Clan LRM-15 clusters better than an IS LRM-15.

Then when you factor in the weight, like you say, it's not even close. Clan LRMs >>> IS LRMs.

[Roadkill]

I don't think "same" means what Russ thinks it means.

Warhammer +30% PPC velocity
Archer +10% LRM velocity

HEY RUSS, THAT'S NOT SAME.

[Moldur]

Do you see the hardpoints on the Archer? What exactly are people expecting for quirks?