74 replies to this topic

[LegendaryArticuno]

Black Knight needs a huge nerf
Thunderbolt needs quite a few buffs

[cazidin]

LegendaryArticuno, on 11 March 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

Black Knight needs a huge nerf

NO!!!

[Gas Guzzler]

cazidin, on 11 March 2016 - 04:41 PM, said:

NO!!!

It will get one in the form of the new heat system.

Who the hell needs 8-9 energy hardpoints when you are capped to ~30 damage?

[Ultimax]

ZeroKelvin, on 11 March 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

If I already have Catapults and Jagermechs, which one of those offers the most fun?

What is fun to you?

The Marauders do things that aren't just lasers.

The Black Knights have the most raw firepower and tankyness out of the 4 you listed.

The Grasshoppers are near, but not quite, the Black Knights - but they have the versatility of jump jets and on some variants a few high mounts.

Thunder bolts are mediocre.


Personally, I find the Grasshoppers more fun than the Black Knights, but I enjoy the Black Knights a lot too.

I don't even play my Thunderbolts, they are has-beens of a previous quirk-age.

Marauder I never bought, and on the battlefield they aren't much of a threat.

Edited by Ultimax, 11 March 2016 - 05:30 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

2 words: Mist Lynx.

There is not another mech in the game in a worse place than the MLX, and what about the GAR? LOL! Yeah...

Ummm, one word, commando.
Second, the Gargoyle is better than the Victor, so lets not go down that route either.




There is a difference in your example and mine.

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

The 5LL stalker versus 6LL stalker is changing 5 tons and 9 damage for 1 DHS and marginally better heat efficiency because you cannot fully offset the weight of the LL you traded.

The WHM-6D literally trades 1 ML for 1 DHS, and ends up being a swing from 1.06 to 1.17 in heat efficiency.

Which means the trade off is even more minor, because the 1 ML has less impact on heat efficiency than a single LL on the Stalker.


I was implying group/solo...I would not include comp because...well...I have not played comp in a long time.

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

The situations where cover becomes more crucial for a BK, would be a protracted short range engagement

What do you think an actual brawl is? There is a difference between brawling, and pushing/murderballing. One involves similar loaded mechs and is where the BK suffers, the other is where the BK flourishes.

This is semantics, but meanings of words do matter.

[MischiefSC]

BK is solid. Excellent laservomit heavy.

Thud is definitely a reliable second tier but it's certainly not the BK.

Grasshopper gives up 5 overall tons plus 1 for jjs but, in turn, has jjs. Otherwise it's a tall bk.

Marauder doesn't hang with the BK/ghr. It hangs out with the Thuds in reliable but not exceptional land.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 March 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

It will get one in the form of the new heat system.

Who the hell needs 8-9 energy hardpoints when you are capped to ~30 damage?

Stagger fire. Also impending ppc buffs.

I bet you already fire the BK in 3lpl, 3ml, 2ml chunks. Slow them up a tiny bit.

Everyone is just losing the finishing alpha.

[Gas Guzzler]

No, alpha then twist. So I can raise my TTK

[Y E O N N E]

Cabusha, on 11 March 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

Marauder is the tankiest Heavy in the game right now. The 3R is arguably OP with its structure quirks and ability to spread damage. 3xAC5 +4ML is the best build for that thing.

BlackKnight is fun but the belly button high hardpoints are annoying. Damn near as bad as the Atlas in that regard.

There is no universe in which the Marauder, as it currently sits in MWO, even approaches OP. It's under-gunned, extremely vulnerable to flanking and legging, and puts most of its firepower in one component. The only properly decent one is the 5D, but it still gets out-classed at the range brackets it's strongest in.

It's a fun 'Mech, but if anything it needs a few nudges up to play with the big 'Mechs.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 March 2016 - 05:53 PM, said:

Ummm, one word, commando.
Second, the Gargoyle is better than the Victor, so lets not go down that route either.

The commando is fast and runs more than 2 energy with ECM.

Victor can jump and carry loads of weapons.

Gargoyle is overengined and gets structure quirks with no real torso mounts to speak of...

Quote

There is a difference in your example and mine.

Which means the trade off is even more minor, because the 1 ML has less impact on heat efficiency than a single LL on the Stalker.

you are giving up much more damage on the STK build.

Also, STK build generates 42 heat for 54 damage, vs. 35 heat for 45 damage.

Meanwhile, the WHM build generates 41 heat for 58 damage versus 37 heat for 53 damage.

You gain significantly more from that extra LL than you do from the medium, and the better sustainability is a bonus in my mind.

You are free to your own opinions of course.

Quote

What do you think an actual brawl is? There is a difference between brawling, and pushing/murderballing. One involves similar loaded mechs and is where the BK suffers, the other is where the BK flourishes.

This is semantics, but meanings of words do matter.

A brawl is an engagement under ~300m.

I think you are refining it down to what many call a "furball" or as Clans would say "Grand Melee". I think that is where our differences in interpretation lie.

I do not disagree with your point fundamentally...as a furball/melee is bad for BKs. I think we are just talking past each other with different interpretations of the same word.

Edited by Gyrok, 11 March 2016 - 07:18 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

The commando is fast and runs more than 2 energy with ECM.

ECM isn't a bonus, it is a noob trap on that thing. It is fast, but also lacks JJs and suffers from being a 25 ton missile boat. If anything they are tied.

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

Victor can jump and carry loads of weapons.

Only if you run the super squishy XL. The Victor is less useful than the Gargoyle.

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

you are giving up much more damage on the STK build.

Also, STK build generates 42 heat for 54 damage, vs. 35 heat for 45 damage.

Meanwhile, the WHM build generates 41 heat for 58 damage versus 37 heat for 53 damage.

You gain significantly more from that extra LL than you do from the medium, and the better sustainability is a bonus in my mind.

You gain more damage with the extra LL, but you also gain more heat as well (with the same DHS trade-off), so again, the trade-off for 1 ML is better than compared to the Stalker.

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

A brawl is an engagement under ~300m.

I disagree, brawls are defined by more than just range, saying that the Yen-Lo or HBK-4G is a brawler is a misunderstanding of what it does. They are short range sure, but brawlers they are not.

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

I do not disagree with your point fundamentally...as a furball/melee is bad for BKs. I think we are just talking past each other with different interpretations of the same word.

A bit, but that's because I have always felt people need to separate the difference between short range pokers, and splat type mechs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 March 2016 - 07:53 PM.

[MischiefSC]

I'd rather keep buffing mobility.

If I gave the Gargles a weapon buff I'd go 10% range and 10% cooldown. Let him boat energy like he's designed but deal with heat issues like the rest of the energy boats. The range boost though will pull his smalls and pulse into SRM and ML range, which is good imo.

[Zordicron]

ZeroKelvin, on 11 March 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

If I already have Catapults and Jagermechs, which one of those offers the most fun?

Well, as you asked for most fun....

Most of these replies are tryhard "it's the best" replies. I guess if that is all you consider fun, you can glean an answer from the prior 3 pages.

I will describe my XP in these chassis.

T-bolt: Oldest one in the game as far as release. Can be made to do laser barf, but can run some variants wirth ballistics, and they can do PPC's too if you like. Some have missile points but that is pretty limited, still, you can make mixed loadouts. If you want to be a tier zero tryhard, you will find yourself ignoring everything but the quirked laser hardpoints though. Overall, it can be a tough cookie, or a fragile one, depending on how well you pilot. That will also determine if you can make an XL work or not in the mech, which can affect your loadout choices. I bought my T-bolts as part of the Pheonix pack, and most of the variants have been pulled out of mothballs and put back in numerous times over the years. They are fun, in general, and adaptable to game changes so far. Hero variant is pretty bland however.

Grasshopper: Bought this in the Resistance pack. A quietly effective mech. Laser barf is pretty much your only option, but I did run one variant with a pair of higher mounted PPC and had some good fun. Has JJ, but you need to load basically max count JJ if you want to actually enjoy them on this mech. Also, REQUIRES a BIG XL engine. I don;t know what it is with this chassis, but a normal size engine for its tonnage made the thing feel like i was piloting a 90 ton assault or something. Sluggish. now, I havent actually run one since the pilot tree changes etc, so it might have faired better then i think that way(I should probably run one a bit just to see) but when it released I found myself putting XL325's plus into them to make them respond + be able to spread dmg. They can be CT dmg magnets if you arent paying attention. They have enough firepower and cooling to add dmg up fast, but its all laser boating loadouts with big alphas, so mostly it got kinda bland for me after while. In their "house" camo and custom paint, IMO they look pretty badass. I would say the hoppah isnt quite as "fun" or adaptable as a T-bolt, but it is a solid performer and is under rated in that respect most of the time. Just not that much you can do besides stick a PPC on once in a while to break up the laser barf monotony.

Black Knight: People over simplify this mech as a no JJ Grasshopper. True it does laser barf on similar levels. True, basically PPC's are your only way to break up the lasers monotony. There is one variant with nice PPC quirks- I made a loadout that mounted triple PPC and a boat ton of DHS, with weapon modules, it really could sling PPC's down range for a long while. Played like a Warhawk prime or Awesome 8Q really- so there is a minor bit of variety to be had here vs the Grasshoppers. Still, most loadouts will be similar in function and play overall, but it performs well.

Marauder: Heh, not really similar to the other 3. Can be sort of wierd to put loadouts on- many times you have a concept in mind and run short on tonnage for either cooling or engine. This makes people make comments like they are under gunned. I will say, in general, they do better moving slower with a STD engine and a simple loadout vs an XL and hot running mega gunz type. The Marauder can do it all loadout wise, there is even a variant with capability for LRM(not as a stand alone, but enough LRM that it isn;t just an afterthought) otherwise there is a lot you can do- big ballistic with laser back up, multi ballistics, laser boats, PPC+whatever, etc. I have really enjoyed mine, they take a bit to figure out the timing for torso twisting to spread dmg, vs just taking it head on( you can lose a ST fast if you twist wrong, or at the wrong times) but they are, IMO pretty durable mechs with STD engines and have been consistant performers with all sorts of different loadouts.

If I had to pick one to start with I would look at it like this:

Am I going to be plaing MWO for a long while yet, sticking with heavy mechs, buying these chassis all in a row? If so, i would actually start with one of the laser oriented ones like the Grasshopper or Black Knight so you can put a mixed bag type in between. I went from Hopprs to Black Knights a little too quickly and got sorta burned out on all the laser barf.

Now if you are just gonna pick one ad then who knows? IMO go with the Marauder or T-bolt. Easiest to adapt to weapons you like, both are pretty tough, and most of all both chassis are something I will keep getting out of mothballs occassionally to mess around in because they are so adaptable and just the "feel" of them keeps my interest more.

On a side note, I also feel that way about Jagers and even catapults( I still run a splat cat now and then for lulz, enemy pilots reactions are priceless as peole just dont expect them nowdays) as fairly interesting/unique chassis. In fact my CW deck has a bunch of Jagers in it right now.

Anyway, thats my two c-bills. T-bolt and Marauder over laser vomit Hoppah and Black KNight mostly because of adaptability= longevity.

[Beaching Betty]

Marauder baby~

[ZeroKelvin]

I got the Thunderbolt and it is just not OK how fast those medpulses CT **** enemies.