137 replies to this topic

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Tarogato, on 11 March 2016 - 07:58 PM, said:

Sorry, but the Gargoyle still can't do anything except brawl.

I appreciate your effort and your math, but in my experience, 6 ermeds is deadly at range. Saying its useless is kinda underminding ermeds.

[Deathlike]

Tarogato, on 11 March 2016 - 07:58 PM, said:

... fuсk, you're right. Gman had a stupid targeting computer in there like he always does, useless pos. Okay, I'll run it again and see how much difference we get.

... ****. I forgot keikun doesn't include the locked engine heatsinks. This might be better than I was expecting, I only had 10 external heatsinks instead of 17.


Okay, here we go.

This Black Knight ---> http://mwo.smurfy-ne...65ec8eb530364ad
This Gargoyle ---> http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4a8c4e28a39bb36


Black Knight gets off 528 damage in 60 seconds when focusing on the large pulses @ ~440m
---- MLs are bad, no point in testing.

Gargies gets off 448 damage in 60 seconds when focusing on the meds @ ~450m
Gargies gets off 650 damage in 60 seconds when focusing on the smalls @ ~220m


Black Knight wins at range because cERML are just too inefficient and not worth taking. But if the Gargies ignores the meds and only fires the smalls and is in range for the smalls, the Gargies wins. (provided the pilot can keep the smalls on target - cERSL have much longer duration than both IS LPL and ML... which is why I don't think cERSL are very good... cSPL is much better.)

Sorry, but the Gargoyle still can't do anything except brawl. It's not suited for any kinda of range work - everything about its kit screams brawl: huge engine thus fast speed and fast torso twist, huge structure quirks, massive amount of energy hardpoints with limited podspace, low and articulated mounts.

To be fair, the Gargles can do some mid range, but only if the targets are on level (no different than a BK though). I still hate trying to shoot over terrain even if I do have the highest point on HPG. The return fire from the largeness/oversized aspect of the Gargles is far more detrimental.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

MischiefSC, on 11 March 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

Okay. About 3 hours? I don't even have basics on my BK but I'll happily take this bet.

Obviously Boreal and Alpine are one-sided. Forest Colony? Caustic?

Oh dear lord, lets duel when your BK is mastered.

[Tarogato]

Deathlike, on 11 March 2016 - 07:52 PM, said:

Inevitably while the Gargles may be #1 of the 80-tonners (debatable), it's so far inferior to whatever the Black Knight will be doing in brawling DPS. It's not really a contest, despite those builds being primarily large XL builds (~325-350).

Completely wrong. Look at these numbers again:

Tarogato, on 11 March 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:

Black Knight is as tanky as an ~87-ton mech and does mid-range. Gargoyle is as tanky as a ~102-ton mech and does brawl.

...

I'm comparing this BL-KNT: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...438fa431038fbe6
with this Gargoyle: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...76072fadf06274a

That BL-KNT puts out ~516 damage in 60 seconds (8.6 dps)
That Gargoyle puts out ~756 damage in 60 seconds (12.6 dps) ... and it's tankier and it's faster. Why bring the BL-KNT to a tonnage brawl if you could bring this beast?

The Gargoyle will shred a Black Knight in a brawl with equal pilots. The Black Knight will only win if it can guarantee a range advantage - probably by legging the Gargoyle at a distance.

Find me a Black Knight build that can exceed 756 damage per minute by enough of a margin to chew though the Gargoyle's 102-ton-worth structure quirks and you might have something.

Edited by Tarogato, 11 March 2016 - 08:28 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 08:02 PM, said:

Oh dear lord, lets duel when your BK is mastered.

That's going to be a bit. I hate pug queue and I'm in Clans for a bit in CW.

I don't mind.

[Deathlike]

Tarogato, on 11 March 2016 - 08:15 PM, said:

Completely wrong. Look at these numbers again:


The Gargoyle will shred a Black Knight in a brawl with equal pilots. The Black Knight will only win if it can guarantee a range advantage - probably by legging the Gargoyle at a distance.

Find me a Black Knight build that can exceed 756 damage per minute by enough of a margin to chew though the Gargoyle's 102-ton-worth structure quirks and you might have something.

I would just go CT, and the smurfy links are of the same build.

[Tarogato]

Deathlike, on 11 March 2016 - 08:24 PM, said:

I would just go CT, and the smurfy links are of the same build.

Shittlesticks, I can't believe you're the first person to actually check the build links, haha. Fix'd 'em, thanks.

[Deathlike]

Tarogato, on 11 March 2016 - 08:29 PM, said:

Shittlesticks, I can't believe you're the first person to actually check the build links, haha. Fix'd 'em, thanks.

I noticed it but didn't mention it earlier (dunno, years of ForumWarrioring is... depressing).

I wouldn't run a STD engine, and I certainly wouldn't avoid running LPL on the BK.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 11 March 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

I noticed it but didn't mention it earlier (dunno, years of ForumWarrioring is... depressing).

I wouldn't run a STD engine, and I certainly wouldn't avoid running LPL on the BK.

3lpl, 5ml.

That's what you run in 'Murica.

56 pts of super-heated freedom. Killing reds for Democracy, all day every day!

Davion RWB paint scheme is best paint scheme.

[Tarogato]

Deathlike, on 11 March 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

I noticed it but didn't mention it earlier (dunno, years of ForumWarrioring is... depressing).

I wouldn't run a STD engine, and I certainly wouldn't avoid running LPL on the BK.

If you run LPLs you're only going to outrange the Gargies, you'll never out DPS it once it closes the distance (remember, it's faster than you and has more armour... it is the better brawler.)

So sure, in a scenario where the Gargies isn't affording the opportunity to close the distance, the Black Knight is superior - always was, always will be. But if you're going all in for a brawl, the Gargoyle's going to rekt face and tank more damage to live longer and rekt more faces. Also in a 1v1 with equal pillots I'd put my money on the Gargoyle. =P

[EgoSlayer]

Tarogato, on 11 March 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

If you run LPLs you're only going to outrange the Gargies, you'll never out DPS it once it closes the distance (remember, it's faster than you and has more armour... it is the better brawler.)

So sure, in a scenario where the Gargies isn't affording the opportunity to close the distance, the Black Knight is superior - always was, always will be. But if you're going all in for a brawl, the Gargoyle's going to rekt face and tank more damage to live longer and rekt more faces. Also in a 1v1 with equal pillots I'd put my money on the Gargoyle. =P

The 3LPL 5ML Bk moves at 81.3Km/h and has more than 50% more optimal range (324m including modules) over the 87.1km/h 195M (also including modules) optimal range GAR.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 11 March 2016 - 08:51 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Tarogato, on 11 March 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

If you run LPLs you're only going to outrange the Gargies, you'll never out DPS it once it closes the distance (remember, it's faster than you and has more armour... it is the better brawler.)

So sure, in a scenario where the Gargies isn't affording the opportunity to close the distance, the Black Knight is superior - always was, always will be. But if you're going all in for a brawl, the Gargoyle's going to rekt face and tank more damage to live longer and rekt more faces. Also in a 1v1 with equal pillots I'd put my money on the Gargoyle. =P

Except the gargles will start that brawl 66 pts on CT down.

Going to pop him twice before we brawl. I can shoot twice and have time to cool before ml range. Then I've got 112 pts to play with getting on target before I'm needing to cool.

I'm comfortable with that. Could be wrong but that works for me.

[Deathlike]

Tarogato, on 11 March 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

If you run LPLs you're only going to outrange the Gargies, you'll never out DPS it once it closes the distance (remember, it's faster than you and has more armour... it is the better brawler.)

So sure, in a scenario where the Gargies isn't affording the opportunity to close the distance, the Black Knight is superior - always was, always will be. But if you're going all in for a brawl, the Gargoyle's going to rekt face and tank more damage to live longer and rekt more faces. Also in a 1v1 with equal pillots I'd put my money on the Gargoyle. =P

Well, I guess, but being handicapped range-wise when many battles start mid-range limits your opportunity.

You always want more opportunities, but it's trying to figure out the tradeoffs. In any group-oriented matches, you will generally have more opportunities depending on how well you execute... and limiting yourself range-wise in a bigger mech is rather sub-optimal when you want that damage the most.

It might duel at super-close range well, but that's not what you want your heavier mechs to focus on when building them.

Edited by Deathlike, 11 March 2016 - 08:55 PM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

I guess you guys forgot about the 455m 6ermeds. It can still dish out damage at range too. Not as much as the BK, but enough to cause concern, especially of a competent pilot xl checks you, something you cant do against a clan xl Gargoyle. Sure you can go for CT, but I have more CT than BK, and can easily twist and spread damage to the side torsos.

Edited by Alwrath, 11 March 2016 - 08:57 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 March 2016 - 04:52 PM, said:

got -10% laser duration and -10% Energy Heat gen quirks? Or would it just all of a sudden become sort of viable?

Would love to see it actualyl make use of that massive engine too, and be better on inclines, etc.

[Davegt27]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 March 2016 - 04:52 PM, said:

got -10% laser duration and -10% Energy Heat gen quirks? Or would it just all of a sudden become sort of viable?

would take a lot more then that to make that hunk of junk viable

[Bishop Steiner]

Davegt27, on 11 March 2016 - 08:58 PM, said:

would take a lot more then that to make that hunk of junk viable

I already do pretty well in mine, and heck, my favorite is 2x LB-5X and 2xSRM4, lol. Actualyl prefer it to the LiteBrite Stinkfist of Destiny builds. But Gargoyle is my primary Clan Assault. The Secret is in how you use it. I run it like a large Medium. It can certainly use help, but it's not worthless, even now. Though I admit, I haven't had a chance to compare the freshly rejuvenated Executioner against it to see if my preference sticks.

[MischiefSC]

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 08:56 PM, said:

I guess you guys forgot about the 455m 6ermeds. It can still dish out damage at range too. Not as much as the BK, but enough to cause concern, especially of a competent pilot xl checks you, something you cant do against a clan xl Gargoyle. Sure you can go for CT, but I have more CT than BK, and can easily twist and spread damage to the side torsos.

Dat head though. Gargles big fat head. My shoulder shields can protect my sts. You need a large building to cover Gargles big fat all CT head. Twisting don't matter and that huge lumpy noggin is bigger than a whole Jenner.

[Aresye]

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

Also, I know full well what it could do in a comp match. Are you stupid or just plain dumb?

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

I dont bring Mr. Gargles to comp matches though

Alwrath has killed Alwrath

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 11 March 2016 - 09:20 PM, said:

Dat head though. Gargles big fat head. My shoulder shields can protect my sts. You need a large building to cover Gargles big fat all CT head. Twisting don't matter and that huge lumpy noggin is bigger than a whole Jenner.

Hey stop picking on Peyton Manning That way! Guy just retired, show some respect!