125 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

Gyrok, on 15 March 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

Clearly you do not understand.

Let us play a game shall we?

Ok, you round a corner in a 4 ERLL build with a 44 alpha that takes at minimum 2.0 seconds to deliver a full alpha because ghost heat.

Now...there are 3 IS mechs standing around that corner.

The first one, is a misery with AC20 + PPCs, if you try to shoot him, you lose your trade, his 40 damage hits your ST, and you shoot his shield side burning your name into the side of his mech with your "uber l33t" lightsabers and he gets back into cover in 1 second meaning you did basically 22 damage compared to 40.

The second one is a BK with 3LPL + 5ML, if you try to shoot him, he will hit you for 58 damage to your ST and twist away, and probably get back into cover across the map (even on polar highlands) before you manage to get your 44 damage sprayed onto 6 different components on his mech. Even if he takes full burn, you took 58 damage to the 44 he got, and he likely took significantly less because cover is not far away, and his burn is only ~0.6 seconds, meaning you probably got about 12-13 damage on target, while he got 58.

The last mech is a Mauler with 4 LBX10s, and while you can get your damage onto him because he also has to stare...his ~22 DPS sustained and native structure quirks are way better than your ~10 DPS burst and limited up time with no structure quirks. Besides, he can alpha and twist away soaking most, if not all, of your 44 damage in his arm. Worst case, you play "stare into the sun", and by the time you have done 44 damage, and your weapons have come back from cool down, he has done 120 damage. Want to keep staring?

Get the picture yet kid?

In fairness you are comparing totally silly things. Everyone knows ERLLs, and CERLLs in particular, are terrible weapons up close. Their advantage is outranging all of those mechs by a long way, and therefore not taking anywhere near as much damage as in your examples.

If you say its impossible to make use of that range outside of a few, specific circumstances id agree, and say dont bring that mech to anything except comp or CW (not even then for me, C-ERLLs are dead to me. I'd rather, and do, use ERPPCs)

Also that mauler build is fricking terrible, its incredibly slow and pointlessly rubbish compared to 4xUAC5, or numerous other builds (4xAC5+2PPC is fun)

You're both wrong, the game is pretty balanced currently, imo.

IIC mechs do need quirks, too, but not very strong ones, and not weapon ones.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 15 March 2016 - 01:31 PM.

[Gyrok]

Widowmaker1981, on 15 March 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

In fairness you are comparing totally silly things. Everyone knows ERLLs, and CERLLs in particular, are terrible weapons up close. Their advantage is outranging all of those mechs by a long way, and therefore not taking anywhere near as much damage as in your examples.

If you say its impossible to make use of that range outside of a few, specific circumstances id agree, and say dont bring that mech to anything except comp or CW (not even then for me, C-ERLLs are dead to me. I'd rather, and do, use ERPPCs)

Also that mauler build is fricking terrible, its incredibly slow and pointlessly rubbish compared to 4xUAC5, or numerous other builds (4xAC5+2PPC is fun)

Even at 450m he loses trades to a BK and the Misery.

We could go with the 5 LPL BLR-2C and he would still lose trades to ~550m

Mauler, any number of builds break 20 sustained DPS and have effective ranges of at minimum ~500m.

It really does not matter in this instance, his position is so untenable, that I could literally have plopped any 3-4 meta/semi-meta IS builds in there and it would still out trade the CERLLs.

[Widowmaker1981]

Gyrok, on 15 March 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

Even at 450m he loses trades to a BK and the Misery.

We could go with the 5 LPL BLR-2C and he would still lose trades to ~550m

Mauler, any number of builds break 20 sustained DPS and have effective ranges of at minimum ~500m.

It really does not matter in this instance, his position is so untenable, that I could literally have plopped any 3-4 meta/semi-meta IS builds in there and it would still out trade the CERLLs.

Yeah, because C-ERLLs are terrible at anything below 900m. But thats why you don't use them outside of very specific times. (and unfortunately buffing them too much might make them overpowered for those uses, given the 4 ton 1 slot)

Just dont use em..

Game is really quite balanced at the moment overall, since the removal of all those 25% range buffs.

I do think OP is wrong though, IICs do need some quirks.

HBK-IIC needs small ST structure buffs

ON1-IIC needs large LT structure buffs, and smaller in other locations.

HGN-IIC needs Acc/Dec/Turn rate quirks.

None of them need weapon quirks.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 15 March 2016 - 01:34 PM.

[Gyrok]

Xavori, on 15 March 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

arguments that totally fail at math, reality, and prolly figuring out how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop.

Your arguments fail at math, reality, and everything else, here...we have put up accurate info, you are in hard denial.

Sure, let us reverse this scenario.

You are in a Brawler DDC with 2LLs/AC20/ASRM18...we good? 76.7 alpha.

You round a corner and find 3 clan mechs in brawl range:

First up is a splat TW, you alpha him once to ST and completely remove it cutting his firepower in half, cutting his speed by 20% and making him run 20% hotter. He staggers and tries to shoot back doing a piddly ~30 damage, you alpha his CT, and while he fires again, you fire only SRMs to finish him.

Atlas dished out ~190 damage, TW got ~60 off...even if there was a clean alpha to start from the TW, he only got about ~80 damage out. Atlas > TW.

Next up, is a Dakka DW with 5 UAC5s. The Dakka DW has to stare at you, and while his ~18 DPS is reasonably impressive, your first alpha cleanly sheers off a ST cutting that down to roughly ~12-13 DPS at best. Your second alpha would turn the CT dark orange, and third alpha kills the mech.

Atlas does 220 damage over ~12 seconds to 2 components, the DW does ~150-180 damage over ~12 seconds to 5 components. Atlas > DW

Finally, Laser vomit TW with 54 alpha, If you both fire simultaneously to start, the TW loses a ST immediately. Atlas takes 54 damage to ST, armor not cracked, dark yellow. Second volley, the TW deals 27 damage to same torso, cracks the armor finally, and the Atlas does 76 damage to the CT of the TW, best case TW is CT armor dark red, worst case exposed internals. Atlas fires SRM volley to CT while TW is trying to cool off to kill the mech. (Best case the TW burns a cool shot, and fires turning the exposed ST of the Atlas dark red, possibly critting some weapons, and still eats a face full of SRMs and dies...)

In that time span, the TW did 108 damage, and the Atlas did ~180.

Widowmaker1981, on 15 March 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

Yeah, because C-ERLLs are terrible at anything below 900m. But thats why you don't use them outside of very specific times. (and unfortunately buffing them too much might make them overpowered for those uses, given the 4 ton 1 slot)

Just dont use em..

Game is really quite balanced at the moment overall, since the removal of all those 25% range buffs.

I do think OP is wrong though, IICs do need some quirks.

HBK-IIC needs small ST structure buffs

ON1-IIC needs large LT structure buffs, and smaller in other locations.

HGN-IIC needs Acc/Dec/Turn rate quirks.

None of them need weapon quirks.

I am not saying CERLLs should be used...

That was the Magnum Opus of the OP's original post...so I am explaining why they suck...and why the duration is asinine.

Edited by Gyrok, 15 March 2016 - 03:39 PM.

[dario03]

Gyrok, on 13 March 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

I have that many on 1 my DW prime alone.

I have 1700 matches across 3 HBRs...

I know how to play the game. It is not that I "cannot make it work"...I surely can...but it is inferior to other options.

want proof?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...691324c4028ae8d

With quirks and cooldown 5 module, that build will literally put out 21+ DPS sustained, no jams, no overheats.

No DW build on the planet can touch 21 DPS guaranteed.

What kind of sustained are we talking about? Because Smurfy doesn't show that and Li Song only comes out in the 11dps area with max around 19-23.5 depending on which Mauler you use. And you can get Dires up to about 15 sustained and 24 max with various lbx/ac boats (while carrying 7+ tons of ammo and good armor).

Also your linked Mauler is missing about 70 points of armor on the ct.

Edited by dario03, 15 March 2016 - 02:01 PM.

[InspectorG]

xe N on, on 13 March 2016 - 03:23 AM, said:

You only focus on tech. While it is true that clan tech is slightly superior to IS tech (e.g. a C-XL engine is straight out better then a IS-XL engine) there are more factors which decide if a mech is top tier or not ... namely hard-points, hitboxes, size and shape.

IS had the monopoly on high hardpoints and still kinda does. Stalker 4 life, yo.

[Gyrok]

dario03, on 15 March 2016 - 01:59 PM, said:

What kind of sustained are we talking about? Because Smurfy doesn't show that and Li Song only comes out in the 11dps area with max around 19-23.5 depending on which Mauler you use. And you can get Dires up to about 15 sustained and 24 max with various lbx/ac boats (while carrying 7+ tons of ammo and good armor).

Also your linked Mauler is missing about 70 points of armor on the ct.

Thanks for pointing that out:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...df1fdd2c35bb854

Max DPS for 4 LBX10s = 4*(4)*1.27 = 20.32

Edited by Gyrok, 15 March 2016 - 02:08 PM.

[InspectorG]

Xavori, on 12 March 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

So when the Kodiak comes out, it will likely have no quirks. It's Clan. It's a battlemech. It doesn't need them.

PGI HAD to make Clans 'better' on release. Because saving a sinking game and Lore nerds. And besides...FASA did the same thing.

BT was not as balanced as people think. You had different rule sets for different things. One-off game? Lore themed game? Series of games? tourney? RPG? /etc.
BV could be min/maxed just as any other thing. Clans lost Invasion because: RP lore.

PGI tried to port BT to a FPS.... = problems.

PGI is fairly inexperienced with this type of gaming apparently.

Quirks were introduced to bring Parity between IS and Clan...pretty decently. But...

It was mainly balanced vs the Holy Trinity.

YES, THERE ARE SCRUB CLAN MECHS THAT NEED QUIRKS. Summoner. Gargles. MethLynx...

Kodiak has 100 tons but max C-XL engine...
But also has the same problems as an unquirked Atlas - will get chewed up by any 2 decent mechs
And that 400xl doesnt net you as much quickness as you think.


So even if it has firepower, its gonna get at least Agility quirks because in MWO: GUNS > Agility

[xXBagheeraXx]

Pretty sure your logic also applies to the HiglanderIIC, and most people agree that mech is trash due to its lack of maneuverability.

Something that large even with a sizable engine needs some sort of mobility quirks...or else its basically an unquirked atlas, and we all know how well those did.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 15 March 2016 - 02:20 PM.

[Deathlike]

Xavori, on 15 March 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

This is where I stopped reading because you're making a totally spurious argument.

If I was in an Atlas, Black Knight, Warhammer, Your Mom's Crusty Undies, whatever, I turn the corner and see three Clan mechs I'm so much slag, or at least I should be.

I'm loving this thread btw...nothing but Clan players trying to scream foul about the fact that I'm honest that Clan tech is better than IS tech, and IT IS BETTER BECAUSE BATTLETECH SAID SO, NOT PGI which means the Battletech doesn't matter nonsense is just as ridiculous as all the other OhWoeIsWeClambakers arguments that totally fail at math, reality, and prolly figuring out how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop.

I'm not a Clan player. Don't mistake the faction logo as proof of anything.

But hey, we can use silly excuses as proof of nothing.

[Wolfways]

Xavori, on 12 March 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

The problem should be painfully obvious.

Yes the problem is obvious.

Quote

The clan version does more damage with better range and has only a small heat penalty and a meaningless duration penalty. You can't have an online game where things are that out of balance and expect people to play anything but the good stuff.

There it is. You think heat and duration are small penalties.

No point in reading further really...

[Xavori]

Any Clambakes that have any doubts about why IS needs quirks need look no further than the shiny new Archers that are all meh (except for the Tempest, and that's only because ECM at least lets you sneak into position cuz no way are you getting there otherwise).

They have meaningless weapon quirks making them all slow firing, too hot, and terribad DPS vs pretty much all the other mechs. There is literally nothing that can't be done better by a number of other mechs both Clan and IS. They also have great big easy to hit profiles and arms that are too skinny to use as shields.

Unlike fighting a Timber Wolf in my Warhammer where the outcome is usually decided by pilot skill, an Archer vs even the delicate Ebon Jaguar is at a major disadvantage because it's just as delicate, is slower unless you put in an XL in which case you're way more delicate, and can't maintain DPS because the freakin' things overheat so fast.

[Deathlike]

Xavori, on 15 March 2016 - 10:15 PM, said:

Any Clambakes that have any doubts about why IS needs quirks need look no further than the shiny new Archers that are all meh (except for the Tempest, and that's only because ECM at least lets you sneak into position cuz no way are you getting there otherwise).

They have meaningless weapon quirks making them all slow firing, too hot, and terribad DPS vs pretty much all the other mechs. There is literally nothing that can't be done better by a number of other mechs both Clan and IS. They also have great big easy to hit profiles and arms that are too skinny to use as shields.

Unlike fighting a Timber Wolf in my Warhammer where the outcome is usually decided by pilot skill, an Archer vs even the delicate Ebon Jaguar is at a major disadvantage because it's just as delicate, is slower unless you put in an XL in which case you're way more delicate, and can't maintain DPS because the freakin' things overheat so fast.

You do realize that the majority of complaints regarding the Archer involve hitboxes and not some vague other odd reason?

Edited by Deathlike, 15 March 2016 - 10:26 PM.

[Xavori]

Deathlike, on 15 March 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

You do realize that the majority of complaints regarding the Archer involve hitboxes and not some vague other odd reason?

Hitboxes + paper mache structure/armor + heat. I mean, I actually played the things all night.

I run XL engines in my Warhammers and can straight up brawl in them. Get in peoples' faces, torso twist, spread damage like a champ, dish out good damage. Good times.

I switched to XL engines in my Archers because there really isn't much difference in getting 2xalpha killed CT or ST, and at least with a bigger XL engine, I can get the frak out of dodge when something starts shooting me before they get that second (or sometimes I get lucky third) alpha in that reks me. But even if that wasn't a problem, you can't brawl because you'll overheat.

Going back to my Warhammers, I run the 7S and the BW both of which have energy heat quirks. I have no problem keeping damage output high while not overheating. The Archers (with the exception of a 5xLRM5 chained thing I tested) cannot come close to that performance because apparently that 10% energy heat quirk is that important.

And the missile rate of fire is pretty pathetic too which doesn't help at all on the missile hardpoint heavy variants...

[Kmieciu]

Paigan, on 13 March 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

A Zealot (protoss basic melee unit) is worth 4 Zerglings (Zerg basic melee unit), yet the game is very well balanced.
To a certain degree, this could be very well projected into MWO, one just has to be a little intelligent and creative (I decribed it in many threads, I won't repeat it here)

Cannot be done unless you allow a player to control 5 Locusts against 1 Direwolf.

[Lily from animove]

Xavori, on 13 March 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

Which kinda is my point.

You can balance weapons and equipment between IS and Clans by giving IS quirks.

You cannot really balance mech hitboxes, hardpoints, etc. with quirks without introducing serious power creep.

No you can not balance tech because the Omnimech construction rules will make the tech be acting extremely different on the different chassis. Quirks aren't powercreep. When a top 10/10 rating mech has no quirks, and a bad rating mech has a 4/10 rating, people will use the 10/10 mech and no one the 4/10. Any quirks to that 4/10 chassis making it NOT higher than 10/10 will not be a power creep it will just add diversity. Power creep only happens when something gets stornger than the best available. Not when just smething inferior gets better but stays below the best.
If you alter tech then this can create powercreep because in most cases the good mechs benefit more form this.
So when buff tech the 4/10 mech now may be 6/10 but suddenly the 10/10 is now a 11/10. And this fails. Same for nerfing tehc, it will keep the better ones worse, but make the worse ones also worse, which makes the worse ones still inferior. This will never create balance because the gap is not altered.
Any kind of balance, if it ever shall work, needs to be done on chassis based balance. Especially for Omimechs.

[Wolfways]

Xavori, on 15 March 2016 - 10:15 PM, said:

Any Clambakes that have any doubts about why IS needs quirks need look no further than the shiny new Archers that are all meh (except for the Tempest, and that's only because ECM at least lets you sneak into position cuz no way are you getting there otherwise).

They have meaningless weapon quirks making them all slow firing, too hot, and terribad DPS vs pretty much all the other mechs. There is literally nothing that can't be done better by a number of other mechs both Clan and IS. They also have great big easy to hit profiles and arms that are too skinny to use as shields.

Unlike fighting a Timber Wolf in my Warhammer where the outcome is usually decided by pilot skill, an Archer vs even the delicate Ebon Jaguar is at a major disadvantage because it's just as delicate, is slower unless you put in an XL in which case you're way more delicate, and can't maintain DPS because the freakin' things overheat so fast.

So...it's like a Mad Dog?
Yes some IS mechs need quirks, just as much as some Clan mechs do.

[Malachy Karrde]

pbiggz, on 15 March 2016 - 04:52 AM, said:

There is no reason to not make every chassis good. If mechs are bad why are they in game?

Your argument makes no sense because apparently the only reason you are opposed to clan quirks is because you don't feel like adding clan quirks. That's stupid.

And your premises are false. Clan tech is NOT enough to balance against inner sphere battlemechs. We can get MUCH closer to balanced (SEE: mechwarrior living legends) and every chassis in the game CAN be good, if PGI shows it has the balls to MAKE them good rather than just nerfing what is already good. The chances of that happening of course is low, even lower as long as you and your IS fanboy friends keep bitching about how great every clan mech is and how a shadow cat can easily 1v1 even a post-nerf blackjack, and how OP er llas mist lynxes are.




/thread.

we're done here

just another is fanboy with his head stuck in his panther 10-p's AC barrel.

You refuse to support quirks for clan mechs because you dont like the clans. No other reason. Don't waste everyone's time lying about it we all know its true. You're perfectly satisfied if every **** clan mech in the game remains **** until the end of time because it doesn't bother you right? **** the clans am i right!? Ruined BT huh?

You guys have a staggering inferiority complex you know.

I am a clan player *******! I exclusively use a dire wolf and warhawk save for CW. For CW drops I have a mad dog, adder and a hellbringer and stormcrow that I drop with a warhawk. aside from mastering inner sphere trash mechs from time to time, I only play clan. If you have trouble with clan tech, get better at using it. It has significant advantages even here in MWO. Most people just want to blindly brawl and suck at tactics, combined with having no idea what the strengths and weaknesses of their weapons are. Anyone who says X mech is crap, except for a very few exceptions, are full of it and dont know how to use the mech to its strengths. I don't support quirks for clan mechs because if they had them, the game would be no fun, as combined with clan weaponry, they would be overpowered compared to IS counterparts. I'd much rather have a challenge than to mindlessly roll over everything I meet. Its hard enough now to have a challenging match. I am considering using a gargoyle or something because the dire wolf is much to easy to point and shoot something into scrap.

[Deathlike]

Xavori, on 15 March 2016 - 10:50 PM, said:

Hitboxes + paper mache structure/armor + heat. I mean, I actually played the things all night.

I run XL engines in my Warhammers and can straight up brawl in them. Get in peoples' faces, torso twist, spread damage like a champ, dish out good damage. Good times.

I switched to XL engines in my Archers because there really isn't much difference in getting 2xalpha killed CT or ST, and at least with a bigger XL engine, I can get the frak out of dodge when something starts shooting me before they get that second (or sometimes I get lucky third) alpha in that reks me. But even if that wasn't a problem, you can't brawl because you'll overheat.

Going back to my Warhammers, I run the 7S and the BW both of which have energy heat quirks. I have no problem keeping damage output high while not overheating. The Archers (with the exception of a 5xLRM5 chained thing I tested) cannot come close to that performance because apparently that 10% energy heat quirk is that important.

And the missile rate of fire is pretty pathetic too which doesn't help at all on the missile hardpoint heavy variants...

If you're complaining about ROF on LRMs, you have deeper issues.

[nehebkau]

Xavori, on 15 March 2016 - 10:15 PM, said:

Any Clambakes that have any doubts about why IS needs quirks need look no further than the shiny new Archers that are all meh (except for the Tempest, and that's only because ECM at least lets you sneak into position cuz no way are you getting there otherwise).

I am going to lay it out on the line for you, not because I care for the clans ( I am an FRR loyalist rank 20 and I am playing clans not simply to get mecbays) but because you need an education. My ~3 months exclusively playing clanners has shown me the following:

• People say clanners are hot, but you don't realize how hot until you play one. My gauss + 3 ErMLs HBR is mostly just a hellbringer with gauss because I can only fire those 3 ErMLs twice before my heat is in the warning zone... and it takes 3 full gauss cycles before I cool down again (fully mastered mechs). Yes, on paper you can build these high-alpha point-damage builds but the heat they generate, even avoiding ghost heat, makes them nearly impossible to use in a real fight.
  
• People think that clanner's range gives them this super advantage -- it doesn't. Most of the maps are designed to keep engagements at the 600M range, max, (given cover and terrain) and most clan range is meaningless in that environment... Clan range is mostly negated. Now, add in quirks and modules and you are really no different in effective range excluding the VERY VERY RARE instance where a T-comp above level 1 is used (and you almost NEVER see that). The thing that T-comps cost you is sustained DPS because of #1 above -- you are removing heat-sinks to get that bigger t-comp.
  
• You completely miss the point of face-time and this is the biggest indication that you don't know what you are talking about. THIS IS THE MOST CRITICAL FAILURE IN CLAN WEAPONS! To get your full DPS on any clan AC/UAC or Laser you have to face-time, for lasers 20% more and auto-cannons 50% more to get your DPS off. In game, that 20 - 50% is enough time for several enemies to track and shoot you before you can get back into cover or start to twist. That extra time gives IS an advantage in figuring out where an enemy is firing from.
  
• Clan lasers and autocannons, because of their extended firing time, make it EASIER FOR SKILLED players (hell even players that are lucky enough to be moving when they are shot) to spread clan damage out over more of their mechs. While they may have a higher base damage and range It is rare that a good pilot will let that damage sit on a single location on their mech.

You rely on numbers, thinking that they tell the whole story, but number do not tell the whole story. There is a whole realm of game mechanics that you completely miss. Honestly, weapon quirks should be completely removed from the game and replaced with quirks that require a pilot to get the best advantage from them. Quirks on speed, maneuverability, armor, structure, sensors and support systems should be all that is in the game. That way the terribads won't be able to make up for their failings by relying on an added 30% range to a weapon system. Weapon quirks are the stupidest thing PGI has done in a while -- it's like they want to make the game as hard to balance as they possibly could.



So, next time, rather than sit in front of your spreadsheet and brood about the numbers how about you actually do some field research into what you are talking about.

-EDIT-
Sorry for sounding like a jerk, but I am kinda tired of the balance issue. Things right now are, for the most part as balanced as they have ever been and just because someone gets killed doesn't mean the mech that killed them is OP. The only OP things in the game are computer power, latency and pilot skill.

Edited by nehebkau, 16 March 2016 - 07:23 AM.