125 replies to this topic

[Lugh]

Curccu, on 13 March 2016 - 03:35 AM, said:

You should try IIC Highlanders and after few games in with that mech say it's good enough without quirks.

Why would he want to do something that categorically proves him wrong?

[Yozzman]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 March 2016 - 03:37 AM, said:

And this, right here, is why you don't balance the game around scrub gameplay.

OP is T4.

OP says the duration penalty on the C-ERLL is 'meaningless'

OP is wrong, because he has been mislead by his opponents. He thinks that having a long duration is not a problem, because it ISNT a problem when your opponents stand there like potatoes and don't twist, or move, or react quickly and shoot back at you. However, at higher skill levels the C-ERLL is basically a non weapon, no one uses them because they actually SUCK, due to the duration.

In order to understand balance, you cannot just look at numbers. You have to actually use both sides for extended amounts of time, with at least somewhat decent opposition.

+1 for the truth!

For example, 3x IS LPL. Epic short burntime and you can fire them all 3 together.
Enemy has not time to react to the short dmg poke, awesomesauce included!

[Steve Pryde]

Laser burning time meaningless? That's why all uses clan er-large lasers? Oh wait...

IS laser boats have less heat, shorter burning time (u can't spread dmg against is pulse lasers, especially with quirked weapons) and if u build correctly nearly the same alpha. Don't forget structure quirks that most of the time means is mechs can take 1 alpha more. It's so freaking easy with is pulse lasers to take out the center torso of a clan mech because of half a second burning time.

And don't forget heat and heatcap. Clan mechs can barely fire 2 times in a row, is mechs easily 3 times which means a dead clan heavy mech if u snipe the center torso.

And I'm playing both sides so don't nail me down for my Jade Falcon sign.

Edited by Steve Pryde, 14 March 2016 - 04:16 AM.

[Brizna]

Quirks should be used to balance individual mechs not factions! If you need to put +10% energy range on all IS energy boating mechs then just remove the quirk and increase the weapon's range.

So good mechs (IS or clan) need no quirks and bad mechs (IS or clan) need them.

Faction balance should be achieved by other means.

[Malachy Karrde]

Steve Pryde, on 14 March 2016 - 04:13 AM, said:

Laser burning time meaningless? That's why all uses clan er-large lasers? Oh wait...

IS laser boats have less heat, shorter burning time (u can't spread dmg against is pulse lasers, especially with quirked weapons) and if u build correctly nearly the same alpha. Don't forget structure quirks that most of the time means is mechs can take 1 alpha more. It's so freaking easy with is pulse lasers to take out the center torso of a clan mech because of half a second burning time.

And don't forget heat and heatcap. Clan mechs can barely fire 2 times in a row, is mechs easily 3 times which means a dead clan heavy mech if u snipe the center torso.

And I'm playing both sides so don't nail me down for my Jade Falcon sign.

Is lasers do a lot less damage per laser.. 2 clan medium er lasers do 14 damage, to match that with is, you need 3 medium lasers, you are short 100 meters on range and it costs the same heat. So basically, let's say we were using a 6 laser setup... 6 clan er is 36 heat, 42 damage per salvo. 6 medium lasers have 100 plus shorter range, only do 30 damage per salvo and cost 24 heat. You would need to fire 3 times to match the damage that the clanner can do in 2 shots. Quite simply, the clanner doesn't need 3 shots, he can core you on two. And the clan mech starts doing full damage 130 meters before your in range to do more than token damage as an IS pilot. The same math applies to pulse lasers and there is no duration to worry about with them. So since the canner can drop 1 laser to every 3 you carry as an is pilot... the tonnage saved can be moved into heat sinks. I personally prefer small lasers and small pulse for most of my assault builds, my small laser does the same damage as an is medium laser and It does full damage out to around 225 meters with a super short burn. That uses very little heat and does 30 damage every time I strike the trigger. Clan tech does indeed make up for quirks. I do agree that long burn lasers are less useful, but our friggin lpls goes out over 600 meters unbuffed! The is version has what..450 meters? That range means you can hit 3 or 4 times before the is mech is inside maximum damage range. I'd say clanner pulse lasers more than make up for any advantage the IS has [still don't see any] or may have with regular lasers.

[Gyrok]

Malachy Karrde, on 14 March 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

Is lasers do a lot less damage per laser.. 2 clan medium er lasers do 14 damage, to match that with is, you need 3 medium lasers, you are short 100 meters on range and it costs the same heat. So basically, let's say we were using a 6 laser setup... 6 clan er is 36 heat, 42 damage per salvo. 6 medium lasers have 100 plus shorter range, only do 30 damage per salvo and cost 24 heat. You would need to fire 3 times to match the damage that the clanner can do in 2 shots. Quite simply, the clanner doesn't need 3 shots, he can core you on two. And the clan mech starts doing full damage 130 meters before your in range to do more than token damage as an IS pilot. The same math applies to pulse lasers and there is no duration to worry about with them. So since the canner can drop 1 laser to every 3 you carry as an is pilot... the tonnage saved can be moved into heat sinks. I personally prefer small lasers and small pulse for most of my assault builds, my small laser does the same damage as an is medium laser and It does full damage out to around 225 meters with a super short burn. That uses very little heat and does 30 damage every time I strike the trigger. Clan tech does indeed make up for quirks. I do agree that long burn lasers are less useful, but our friggin lpls goes out over 600 meters unbuffed! The is version has what..450 meters? That range means you can hit 3 or 4 times before the is mech is inside maximum damage range. I'd say clanner pulse lasers more than make up for any advantage the IS has [still don't see any] or may have with regular lasers.

Most IS mechs get 10% energy range + 10% range 5 module...that makes them 324m without a fall off penalty.

CERML is 405 with a fall off penalty making them do zero damage past about 650-660m anyway. So there is no range deficiency. Most of the Clan mechs that matter only get 1 weapon module slot too, so those ERMLs are often not range boosted like the IS versions are.

[Malachy Karrde]

Gyrok, on 14 March 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

Most IS mechs get 10% energy range + 10% range 5 module...that makes them 324m without a fall off penalty.

CERML is 405 with a fall off penalty making them do zero damage past about 650-660m anyway. So there is no range deficiency. Most of the Clan mechs that matter only get 1 weapon module slot too, so those ERMLs are often not range boosted like the IS versions are.

I was taking into account range boosts. Even quirked, assuming both pilots use a range boost module (if it's your main weapon you should) the clan mech has considerable range advantage over the IS mech, and it still doesn't address the fact that the clanner only needs 2 hard points to do the same damage for the same heat as an is mech can do for 3 hard points and less range. Clan mech also have a lot more energy hard points available for the most part than equivalent IS mechs. And again when you start taking pulse lasers and small lasers into account... it's even more striking. I'd say inner sphere mechs would need a 25 percent range quirk to truly equal a clanner. Many people assume they need loads and loads of energy weapons to do enough damage, when in reality, a couple large pulse,or 4 medium pulse is more than enough damage. Maxing hard points and your heat doesn't do anything for you as a clanner, you need to use your increased damage and range to control your heat. The only situation where having lots of lasers as a clanner can be useful is when you want to do a 1 hit alpha in say a nova or executioner. And when you do that, small low heat weapons seem to be preferred.

Edited by Malachy Karrde, 14 March 2016 - 10:42 AM.

[Gyrok]

Malachy Karrde, on 14 March 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

I was taking into account range boosts. Even quirked, assuming both pilots use a range boost module (if it's your main weapon you should) the clan mech has considerable range advantage over the IS mech, and it still doesn't address the fact that the clanner only needs 2 hard points to do the same damage for the same heat as an is mech can do for 3 hard points and less range. Clan mech also have a lot more energy hard points available for the most part than equivalent IS mechs. And again when you start taking pulse lasers and small lasers into account... it's even more striking. I'd say inner sphere mechs would need a 25 percent range quirk to truly equal a clanner. Many people assume they need loads and loads of energy weapons to do enough damage, when in reality, a couple large pulse,or 4 medium pulse is more than enough damage. Maxing hard points and your heat doesn't do anything for you as a clanner, you need to use your increased damage and range to control your heat.

It really is not enough damage though. Not when a BK runs around with a 58 lolpha and nukes a ST instantly almost, and with a burn duration around 0.6 seconds, the damage is applied so quickly it is basically FLD.

When I am building mechs, it seems to me the magic number right now is 50. If you can get right around 50, you can be competitive. With clan mechs you have to use what little range advantage you get...otherwise you get nuked far too quickly compared to something like a MAD/WHM/BK.

EDIT: CERMLs are really not a primary weapon on most heavy mechs these days as well. Not when CLPLs are so much better...there are a few edge case builds like the 6 CERML HBR, but even then, I find 6 CMPLs to be significantly better right now. If you run CLPLs on a mech mixed with CERMLs, your range module goes a much longer way on the CLPL than it does on the CERML. You at most buy yourself another ~40-50m effective range after fall off on the CERML, while on the CLPL you buy yourself 120 more meters with fall off.

Edited by Gyrok, 14 March 2016 - 10:43 AM.

[pbiggz]

Malachy Karrde, on 13 March 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

I'm a clan pilot. While I feel that a couple clan mech need looked at, the warhawk, executioner, dire wolf, timber wolf, ebon jaguar, hellbringer, nova, adder, stormcrow, and a couple others are perfectly fine. That's my opinion. The summoner and mist lynx need a little help, but even the summoner isn't a bad mech, it's just not a great mech. There are chassis for every player, every player cannot make every chassis work. If it doesn't work for you, and you come here bad mouthing it on the forums it just shows that you personally can't make it work. It's not necessarily a bad mech. I've seen pilots who are hell on wheels with a summoner, I can't get it to work. It's not the mech it's me. I can't get an executioner to work.as well as a a warhawk or dire wolf... but others can..I've been killed by em. Doesn't make it a bad mech, it's just not for me. Now, I am hell on wheels with a dire wolf or warhawk.. I do OK in a hellbringer or ebon jag...yet a timber wolf isn't my cup of tea. Does it make them better than timber wolves? No. It's the pilot. I own every mech except the marauder and the 2c pack...I've mastered 2/3 of them, and the rest are at least basiced. Just because I do best in a few mech does not make them more overpowered than anything else, it just makes me good at them. I get mad when people come here and pretend to be an authority on something and bad mouth it because it didn't work for them... if they couldn't get it to work in 900 matches, just means it's not their cup of tea, not that it's bad. Props for trying but if it took you 900 matches to figure out you can't make it work... well I can't help you there. I can usually figure out a mech isn't for me by the time I have it elited. There are a couple bad chassis... but they were bad in tt and in the books too...that's to be expected. But there sure as hell aren't as many as people come whining on the forums about. There are very few bad chassis..but lots of bad pilots in MWO. A good pilot for one mech can be a bad pilot in the next. Play what you like but don't come here pretending to be an authority. Just makes you look like a bigger idiot.

lol, am i pretending to be an authority? I think you are pretending to be an authority, because apparently when you do OK in your summoner it must mean its good for everyone right?

[Lugh]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 March 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

Yes they do.

The Hunchback was one of the very first 'Mechs to receive quirks, along with the Awesome. The quirks were increases to durability on the right torso...the place where the guns sit and where everybody aims, knocking the 'Mech out of the fight in seconds. The Awesome got durability to its sides, since it had a similar but symmetrical problem.

When weapon quirks hit, they were placed not only for flavor, but as indirect buffs to offset hard-point or geometry deficiencies (logic being if you can fire from further away or be more dangerous up close, your durability will be less threatened). Locust 1V and Spider 5V get some pretty potent cool-down quirks because otherwise the required exposure to do damage gets them killed before that damage gets out. They also get shorter laser duration to reduce exposure, making each individual hit-point carry farther.

While I think trying to indirectly off-set the geo deficiencies with weapon quirks is less than optimal, it is still a thing and it does work.

.

22 damage for 8 tons with 7.33 dam/tick per laser vs. 27 damage for 15 tons with 7.2 dam/tick.

Actually isn't awful, as long as you are playing out to the appropriate range. The isERLL is more flexible, but is a similarly daft option up close. While it was OP when poking out to 900 meters before drop-off, the reduction in range quirks has done a lot to normalize the two. Besides, an unquirked isERLL competes more directly with the cLPL...where it's 26 damage for 12 tons with 11.6 dam/tick per laser vs. 27 for 15 and 7.2 dam/tick.

cDHS are not less efficient. They get slightly lower cap, but also slightly more dissipation. The impact to cap is negligible if you do the math, and actually ends up favoring the Clans because dissipation is more powerful per point than cap.

Please explain how being able to fire 3x in the time that the clan player can only fire 2x without shutting down is an advantage for the Clans?

[Y E O N N E]

Lugh, on 14 March 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

Please explain how being able to fire 3x in the time that the clan player can only fire 2x without shutting down is an advantage for the Clans?

They could never really fire those big alphas more than twice without shutting down. The change to cDHS did nothing to alter that reality.

On the other hand, you are also the same individual who posted an over-gunned EBJ trying to make your point; If you drop it down to 54 damage instead of that utterly ridiculous 68, you can actually squeeze three alphas in better than you could before since it dissipates notably faster.

Also also, which IS build are we comparing against? Pulse boat?

Finally, for future posts and ease of conversation, please crop the quote to the relevant part.

Gyrok, on 14 March 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

It really is not enough damage though. Not when a BK runs around with a 58 lolpha and nukes a ST instantly almost, and with a burn duration around 0.6 seconds, the damage is applied so quickly it is basically FLD.

When I am building mechs, it seems to me the magic number right now is 50. If you can get right around 50, you can be competitive. With clan mechs you have to use what little range advantage you get...otherwise you get nuked far too quickly compared to something like a MAD/WHM/BK.

Wat, MAD? MAD is like...not competitive. Viable in scrub queue, yes, but at the top? Stupendously out-classed at every bracket except maybe the 5D, which has a nice 52.2 alpha at the close-range bracket but part of that is SRMs and it is less flexible than a pure pulse boat.

[Xavori]

The number of lasers of each type that can be fired simultaneously is changing very soon. So that's a pointless argument to have till we see what those changes do. (I suspect it's going to be something-ish powerdraw somehow tied to engines which is going to be problematic for a few omnimechs, but matter not at all for IS vs Clan battlemechs unless PGI sets radically different values between IS XL and Clan XL engines)

The duration thing does matter a little bit. I've said repeatedly Clan fights better at range while IS can do peek/poke better. IS heat+duration is also why IS makes better overall laservomit brawlers. The flip side is that its no contest between the two when you're fighting at range. IS loses badly.

Clan LRM's are also better in every way that matters, espec the possibility of doing some damage when someone gets all huggy-facey. Not that I'm going to spend a whole lot of time arguing LRM's given all the other problems with that system clan or IS.

Clan ballistics are just all around better, plus UAC's other than 5's. This is why if your building a ballistic IS mech, you absolutely have to pay attention to getting quirks that make it worth doing or else you're gimped vs Clan.

And that was pretty much the whole point of my original post again. Clan can mount their weapons on pretty much any mech and get good results. IS has to mount on appropriately quirked chasis to get similar results with the caveat that the IS weapons will be heavier and lower damage, but have lower duration and heat which should lead to better DPS. Clan weapons do more damage and better range, so they should win either long distance or alpha strike battles. The trick then becomes piloting your mech in a way that plays to its strengths.

(and no, I'm not saying all IS mechs are great or all clan mechs are great or any other thing like that. I totally agree the ebon jaguar is weaksauce vs a timberwolf, just like a rifleman is weaksauce versus a warhammer. But in the case of bother the ebon jag and rifleman, they can be played to very good effect, espec given that they are lighter than aforementioned timbers and wh's)

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 14 March 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:

Wat, MAD? MAD is like...not competitive. Viable in scrub queue, yes, but at the top? Stupendously out-classed at every bracket except maybe the 5D, which has a nice 52.2 alpha at the close-range bracket but part of that is SRMs and it is less flexible than a pure pulse boat.

I was referring specifically to the MAD only for the structure quirks it enjoys. That along with the WHM and BK are very tanky mechs, even with XL engines...(especially BK/WHM).

My reference to big alphas was specifically the BK, though. Which does enjoy time in the sun light in comp. The WHM may too once it becomes available in those leagues, particularly the 6D.

[Gyrok]

Xavori, on 14 March 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

The number of lasers of each type that can be fired simultaneously is changing very soon. So that's a pointless argument to have till we see what those changes do. (I suspect it's going to be something-ish powerdraw somehow tied to engines which is going to be problematic for a few omnimechs, but matter not at all for IS vs Clan battlemechs unless PGI sets radically different values between IS XL and Clan XL engines)

I expect that this will honestly break game play as we know it, and cause any hope of a competitive scene in MWO to leave shortly there after, to be honest.

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The duration thing does matter a little bit. I've said repeatedly Clan fights better at range while IS can do peek/poke better. IS heat+duration is also why IS makes better overall laservomit brawlers. The flip side is that its no contest between the two when you're fighting at range. IS loses badly.

Too bad extreme range never happens. At any range that a typical engagement occurs, the IS is not handicapped.

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Clan LRM's are also better in every way that matters, espec the possibility of doing some damage when someone gets all huggy-facey. Not that I'm going to spend a whole lot of time arguing LRM's given all the other problems with that system clan or IS.

FLD > DoT, minimum range is unimportant.

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Clan ballistics are just all around better, plus UAC's other than 5's. This is why if your building a ballistic IS mech, you absolutely have to pay attention to getting quirks that make it worth doing or else you're gimped vs Clan.

Single projectile > bursts

Once again FLD > DoT

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And that was pretty much the whole point of my original post again. Clan can mount their weapons on pretty much any mech and get good results. IS has to mount on appropriately quirked chasis to get similar results with the caveat that the IS weapons will be heavier and lower damage, but have lower duration and heat which should lead to better DPS. Clan weapons do more damage and better range, so they should win either long distance or alpha strike battles. The trick then becomes piloting your mech in a way that plays to its strengths.

The range gap is not significant enough, or relevant enough to be a trump card to play in this scenario. Especially when the developer is pushing people toward brawling more and more. Which means what little range advantage clans have is moot.

IS SRMs have tighter spread, and do more damage per missile. Clans SRMs weigh less, but clans cannot fire more than IS at a time, so that advantage is negated through ghost heat.

IS ballistics run exceptionally cool, are single projectile (FLD), and are actually relevant with a single ballistic weapon. Clan ballistics are lighter, but spread damage like a water sprinkler, jam frequently, and are completely insignificant with one weapon unless you count the (now heavily nerfed) gauss rifle.

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(and no, I'm not saying all IS mechs are great or all clan mechs are great or any other thing like that. I totally agree the ebon jaguar is weaksauce vs a timberwolf, just like a rifleman is weaksauce versus a warhammer. But in the case of bother the ebon jag and rifleman, they can be played to very good effect, espec given that they are lighter than aforementioned timbers and wh's)

The issue is...the EBJ and TW are equally fragile. The TW gains JJs at the expense of loss of torso twist and twist rate, while the EBJ enjoys great hill climb, but has mounts so high they expose your mech before you could possibly hope to fire. The HBR is more humanoid, and carries ECM, but brings significantly less tonnage in weapons to the field.

Sure, clan mechs are not absolutely outclassed at the top, but they are outclassed significantly in certain areas.

Just to provide a point, I watched 8 MRBC matches in the last week. Out of those 8, do you know how many clan mechs I saw 8 man comp teams bring?

Here is the tally:

1 WHK

1 TW

3 Jenner IIC

1 HBR

1 ACH

That is it...8 MRBC matches, 5 rounds each, and out of 640 mechs fielded, I saw literally 7 clan mechs. 7 clan mechs out of 640. Think about that...

You are sitting here trying to tell me Clans are still OP, but comp teams elected to not bring clan mechs 633 times out of 640 opportunities.

Why do you think that is? Clans are SO OP that they felt bad bringing them? LOL! These are comp teams, if it is OP, you will see it.

Want to know how many BKs I saw out of those 640 mechs? 35, that is right, 35 BKs. In other words, they chose a BK 5 times more often than they picked a Clan mech at all.

Consider that before you start this insanity about clans OP again.

[Xavori]

Gyrok, on 14 March 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

You are sitting here trying to tell me Clans are still OP, but comp teams elected to not bring clan mechs 633 times out of 640 opportunities.

First, your random data is meaningless. Who cares what players bring and how that impacts the cost of tea in China. There are just way WAY too many variables that go into mech choice for that to be some kind of proof of which is the best mech.

And it's not me saying Clans are OP. It's me and EVERY SINGLE OTHER PERSON AT ALL EVEN REMOTELY FAMILIAR WITH THE CLAN INVASION OF BATTLETECH telling you that Clan tech is better than IS tech at the point in the timeline we are at.

This is not a point of debate. Until this thread, I hadn't even entertained the possibility that anyone even thought it wasn't the case.

Clan weapons are better than IS weapons. Deal with it.

Clan XL engines are better than IS XL engines. Deal with that, too.

Clan built-in CASE is an advantage over IS.

Now, add in the quirks to IS mechs, and you can get equivalent potential for that specialized IS mech to a comparably equipped Clan mech. This should never have been up for debate. I was posting an explanation, not an argument based on people asking why Clan battlemechs don't get many/any quirks. They are not identical Clan vs IS, but comparable.

I feel pretty certain the Kodiak will be released without quirks. I'm totally okay with that even knowing that I pre-ordered the Kodiak and will be switching to Clan Ghost Bear when it hits because even without quirks, my big fluffy teddy bear is going to kick old and tired Atlases' backsides.

[Gyrok]

Xavori, on 14 March 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

First, your random data is meaningless. Who cares what players bring and how that impacts the cost of tea in China. There are just way WAY too many variables that go into mech choice for that to be some kind of proof of which is the best mech.

See, this is where you are wrong.

Those are comp teams, playing to win. That means if it is at all OP, bring it. Hence, the fact that they chose IS mechs 98.9% of the time...should tell you something about your premise.

633 of 640 mechs in those 8 matches were IS mechs. 98.9% of all mechs. That is a statistically large enough sample size to look at and say...hmm...this data is at least marginally conclusive. If Clan mechs were outright better, they would be all over comp team drop decks. They are not right now...why? Because they are clearly a sub optimal choice when playing to win.

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And it's not me saying Clans are OP. It's me and EVERY SINGLE OTHER PERSON AT ALL EVEN REMOTELY FAMILIAR WITH THE CLAN INVASION OF BATTLETECH telling you that Clan tech is better than IS tech at the point in the timeline we are at.

In lore? Sure.

This is a MMO FPS...and PGI has quite decided that lore means nothing.

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This is not a point of debate. Until this thread, I hadn't even entertained the possibility that anyone even thought it wasn't the case.

Ignorance abounds in the modern world, this does not at all surprise me, to be honest.

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Clan weapons are better than IS weapons. Deal with it.

Situationally...if you consider only base numbers, no quirks? Sure.

After quirks though, not anymore. -10-15% duration on an IS laser of any kind, will increase the damage per tick beyond any stock clan lasers. Clans do not get quirks, so the advantage has now evaporated unless we consider extreme range, where the CERLL has a burn time so long you can write your entire name in the snow on Alpine peaks.

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Clan XL engines are better than IS XL engines. Deal with that, too.

Not when the IS has +15-25 structure per torso they are not. Otherwise people would not be bring IS XL engines in everything under the sun.

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Clan built-in CASE is an advantage over IS.

Let us be real for a moment, shall we? When was the last time you were ever bothered to worry about bringing case on a mech? I can recall in the entire time I have ever played, I have never, ever purchased a single case. Put the ammo in your legs/head like any normal person. Clans wish they could.

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Now, add in the quirks to IS mechs, and you can get equivalent potential for that specialized IS mech to a comparably equipped Clan mech. This should never have been up for debate. I was posting an explanation, not an argument based on people asking why Clan battlemechs don't get many/any quirks. They are not identical Clan vs IS, but comparable.

NO, YOU ARE NOT GETTING IT, QUIRKED IS MECHS ARE OFTEN BETTER THAN CLAN MECHS, AND IIC MECHS PARTICULARLY ARE PRETTY MUCH CATEGORICALLY WORSE THAN REGULAR CLAN OMNIMECHS.

The Jenner IIC may be the one argument you have, and only then, because it can boat SRMs like an oxide.

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I feel pretty certain the Kodiak will be released without quirks. I'm totally okay with that even knowing that I pre-ordered the Kodiak and will be switching to Clan Ghost Bear when it hits because even without quirks, my big fluffy teddy bear is going to kick old and tired Atlases' backsides.

The KDK will be a 100 ton mech with MASC (90 kph in bursts) and more tonnage for weapons than the DW. If they quirk that mech, I will be absolutely dumb founded.

However, it does point out how terribad the DW is/will be when a mech with 20-40 kph more speed can boat the same weapon tonnage and armor with better hit boxes, and higher mounts.

[Deathlike]

To the OP:

Have you ever used a Mist Lynx longer than 5 seconds?

You should really rethink your position.

Without any quirks, the Mist Lynx was and is still the hilarious punching bag that fit no discernible role for what it did... even prior to the Arctic Cheetah.


For Clan Omnimechs that get shafted (see Summoner), quirks won't ultimately fix what ails them (wasted tonnage - lost firepower).


Clan Battlemechs that are poorly scaled and screwed like their IS counterparts need quirks whenever it makes sense. We're trying to balance a video game here and not TT rules.

IS Mechs like the Vindicator continue to suck primarily because our balance overlord still sucks at balancing the game.

Stop trying to make excuses for bad ideas.

[Malachy Karrde]

Gyrok, on 14 March 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

It really is not enough damage though. Not when a BK runs around with a 58 lolpha and nukes a ST instantly almost, and with a burn duration around 0.6 seconds, the damage is applied so quickly it is basically FLD.

When I am building mechs, it seems to me the magic number right now is 50. If you can get right around 50, you can be competitive. With clan mechs you have to use what little range advantage you get...otherwise you get nuked far too quickly compared to something like a MAD/WHM/BK.

EDIT: CERMLs are really not a primary weapon on most heavy mechs these days as well. Not when CLPLs are so much better...there are a few edge case builds like the 6 CERML HBR, but even then, I find 6 CMPLs to be significantly better right now. If you run CLPLs on a mech mixed with CERMLs, your range module goes a much longer way on the CLPL than it does on the CERML. You at most buy yourself another ~40-50m effective range after fall off on the CERML, while on the CLPL you buy yourself 120 more meters with fall off.

I was merely using the medium er laser as an example... I don't really care for lasers to be honest, I use a lot of clan medium pulse lasers. I give up some range, but they hit harder. I use 4 of then in my mad dog and that seems to be enough to brawl with. Combine that with my 6 racks of lrm 5, that I use more like streaks, and it's pretty dammed effective...also the mad dog has quirks...which I'm not sure why lol. On the dire wolf, I don't care for straight dakka buolds...too reliant on ammunition and dps. 6 cer small lasers give me a 30 point pinpoint damage for minimum heat. They do decent damage out to 300 or so... if anything makes it past my uac and gets into brawling range, those make a great equalizer for 3 tons and 18 heat. Same damage as medium lasers for 2 less heat and with a module, they don't sacrifice much range... a bit, but they are a secondary weapon. Can fire them 4 times and my uac on continuous fire without having heat problems. I may use them once to twice a match. 30 damage pretty much legs most light mech and like I said uac are on continuous fire so that's a minimum of 50 damage more like 80 to 100 with double clicks. Clan tech has some significant advantages but with every advantage comes a drawback. I think that the 10 percent quirks on is bring them closer to clan tech but still leaves clans with superior lasers and ultra autocannons at least. But, if you overload your mech and take too many lasers you can end up in a world of hurt with the current heat scales.

[Malachy Karrde]

pbiggz, on 14 March 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

lol, am i pretending to be an authority? I think you are pretending to be an authority, because apparently when you do OK in your summoner it must mean its good for everyone right?

for me the summoner is mediocre. I've seen people do really well with it though. I don't disparage it because I don't do well with it. You don't see me here begging for quirks for the summoner or timber wolves because I don't do well in them. I don't even want quirks for the dire wolf. I don't even want more speed in it. I think the clan tech as it exists is enough to balance against the inner sphere battlements for the most part. We are never going to have perfect balance and not everyone is going to be good at every chassis.

[Xavori]

Deathlike, on 14 March 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

To the OP:

Have you ever used a Mist Lynx longer than 5 seconds?

*sigh*

I DON'T CARE ABOUT <insert mech here> BEING WEAKSAUCE.

I've never once tried to argue that all Clan mechs are OP vs all IS mechs (they are before quirks, but I've never made that argument)

I'm explaining why you don't see piles of quirks on most Clan mechs. CLAN TECH IS BETTER THAN IS TECH. That is not my opinion. That is not anyone's opinion. That is a fact that was intentionally designed into Battletech with the idea that it would be balanced with a bunch of junk about limited resources, manpower, and honor rules...none of which apply in MWO, and hence, PGI had to find some other way to balance.

Again, clan tech is better than IS tech.

And a third time so all of y'all get it....clan tech is better than IS tech.

Now if you want to argue the Mist Lynx is garbage, by all means. For light Clan mechs, I'll prolly never have anything other than arctic cheetahs and the Kitfox KFX-C (hands down best assault escort mech in the game) because I don't have any desire to play Battletech Pokeman and those mechs give me the kind of playstyles I like in lights. Conversely, for IS lights, it's pretty much ravens and spiders for the same reasons. This means I've never even looked at a Mist Lynx or others, let alone whether they're good mechs or not.