195 replies to this topic

[Novakaine]

Damn I had to agree with a red face dawg boy, ooooooh the indignities

Edited by Novakaine, 19 March 2016 - 01:10 PM.

[Helsbane]

Oh dearest gods, I needed a laugh like this

LRMs have so many factors working against them that you have to go out of your way to be hit by them most of the time. But yes, if you stand out in the open and simply let them rain on you game after game, they're OP.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

Tristan Winter, on 19 March 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

We've been saying it for years.

LRMs aren't simply underpowered or overpowered at any point. They are poorly designed. They are poorly designed because it's insanely easy to get target locks, they require virtually no aiming skills to use, only situational awareness and an ability to read the battlefield. Sometimes, you don't even need that.

How are you going to balance LRMs and Streaks without aiming skills in a game where every other weapon relies on good aiming skills? You can't. So as you tweak them up and down, buff and nerf them, you're going to see them rise or fall in popularity, but they'll never really be in a good place.

They need to introduce aiming skills into the equation. The target lock mechanic we've had since 2012 is a joke. Until that happens, we're just going to see varying degrees of complaints from LRM users or LRM victims, or both.

Why should all weapons require twitchy aiming skills? LRMs are hard to use precisely because they require very careful situational skills rather than just point and click. Don't dumb the game down!

[Gyrok]

The Amazing Atomic Spaniel, on 19 March 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

Don't dumb the game down!

That is precisely what LRMs and SSRMs are doing....using LRMs is jokingly easy...

Edited by Gyrok, 19 March 2016 - 01:46 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

The Amazing Atomic Spaniel, on 19 March 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

Why should all weapons require twitchy aiming skills? LRMs are hard to use precisely because they require very careful situational skills rather than just point and click. Don't dumb the game down!

I don't even.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

That is precisely what LRMs and SSRMs are doing....using LRMs is jokingly easy...

Yet in the games I play the high scores and kills almost always go to someone using pulse lasers. If LRMs ruled the game I might have some sympathy for the OP, but in the present state of MWO people take LRMs because they find them fun to use or want a challenge, not because they offer an easy route to winning.

Tristan Winter, on 19 March 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

I don't even.

Hard to use as a game winning weapon. Seriously, if you want to win a match would you take an LRM Archer or a laser boat Madcat?

[Tristan Winter]

The Amazing Atomic Spaniel, on 19 March 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

Hard to use as a game winning weapon. Seriously, if you want to win a match would you take an LRM Archer or a laser boat Madcat?

Probably a laser boat Timber, if my life depended on it. Then again, I'd take a laser boat Timber over most mechs in this game. That doesn't mean all mechs are hard to use, it just means laservomit meta is OP right now. And really, laser vomit Timber is about as easy to use as LRM boats, if we're being honest. You barely need 2 weapon groups, most of the time. Just WASD + Mouse 1 will win you most matches.

But when I was grinding to get my other account to Tier 1, my weapon of choice was the AWS-8R LRM Boat. Good win/loss ratio, winning most matches and getting good damage even in a loss. And really, really easy to use, if you're a veteran of the game. Difficult for new players, sure. But when you basically take aiming out of the equation, it makes multitasking so much easier.

Now, if you're piloting something like an assault mech with 3-4 different weapon types, such as a Highlander or Victor, then you're probably using a whole lot of brainpower trying to line up shots with lasers, ballistics and missiles at the same time. It's so much more difficult than boating LRMs or lasers. And if you've got a really heavily armed mech, you also have to start consider which weapons are most heat effective in a brawl, and then you have to make split-second decisions about whether to keep pumping those heat-effective SRMs (doing more damage per heat unit) or if you're going to keep pumping low-heat ballistics (like dual UAC5s) or maybe risk a precision laser shot before, while keeping your eyes on the heat meter.

Getting the most out of a Victor or Highlander with ballistics, lasers and missiles, that can be tricky. But using LRM boats isn't tricky at all. i'm not saying anyone can do it. I like to fancy myself a more skilled LRM boat than most players. But piloting the AWS-8R is still one of my safest bets for winning matches and getting top scores in the process. 4xLRM15+Artemis and a couple of lasers. Chain-fire most of the match. Alpha-strike for stealing kills. Rinse and repeat.

[Gyrok]

The Amazing Atomic Spaniel, on 19 March 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

Yet in the games I play the high scores and kills almost always go to someone using pulse lasers. If LRMs ruled the game I might have some sympathy for the OP, but in the present state of MWO people take LRMs because they find them fun to use or want a challenge, not because they offer an easy route to winning.



Hard to use as a game winning weapon. Seriously, if you want to win a match would you take an LRM Archer or a laser boat Madcat?

LOL! If you are going to try to argue that taking LRMs is some kind of "personal challenge", I do believe I may have heard it all.

[Alistair Winter]

For reference:

http://mwomercs.com/...past-few-weeks/

LRMs are not hard mode.

[Pinscher]

In tabletop being able to use someone elses targeting for a lock is supposed to be done with C3. The mere fact IS can do it is a gimmie to make clans not be over powered. However if C3 was actually an item in the game, clans would lose weaponry for the tons and crits it takes to pull it off. Making them more accurate with less weapons... a balance in its own right.

[Wolfways]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

LOL! If you are going to try to argue that taking LRMs is some kind of "personal challenge", I do believe I may have heard it all.

When I want to play mechs I like I'll use something like my CPLT-C1, but if I can't really be bothered to try to do well I'll use a mech without LRM's.
LRM's are way more situational than other weapons and harder to use well and get decent scores with (above T3 anyway), unless your enemy don't have a clue what they're doing.
Direct-fire weapons are easy mode imo.

[Damia Savon]

choopy, on 19 March 2016 - 12:23 PM, said:

Ive played this game on and off ever since its earliest days in closed beta, and for the most part I've enjoyed it. For the most part the games felt mostly balanced and fair, but for one reason or another, LRM boating has always been my biggest pet peeve in the game. but until recently i wouldn't mind it too much. It normally wouldn't hinder game-play too frequently and generally I was able to ignore it. However, withing the past few patches that's seemingly changed. Nearly every round is plagued by a constant hail of missiles, to the point which you cant even stick your head out without losing at least a fifth of your health, and AMS barely does anything, and the average round ends with a picture like this http://images.akamai...06C67357AA43D5/

Now, i suppose there isn't one real cause for this, But with the ability to make mechs like these (or some archer builds) i suppose its doomed to happen. At this point, i just feel that the excess of LRM boating has greatly taken away from my enjoyment (and i'm sure others) in this game. And im not sure if theres anything that can be done about it.

So im posting this to find out what others think, have LRM's gone too far? Is this just part of the game? i just want to hear feedback, see how the community feels about it.

Of fot fing hell's sake...

1. You get a huge goddamn missile warning the moment lrms are fired in your general direction. You probably have 2 to 5 seconds to react. If you stand there and get hit them you are stupid.

2. AMS.. yes it will reduce your damage because serious lrm users take 5 or 10s. Only crazy fools like me will use 15s for lore purposes and I'm not crazy enough to use the worthless 20s. So take AMS and stop crying.

3. Gigantic rocks are pretty much everywhere. Laser vomit, alpha scrubs who think they have skills hide behind them all the time. Rocks are op against lrms.

4. Radar dep... if you don't use it then you are stupid.

5. ECM.. plenty of it out there these days.

You know what takes away my enjoyment? Playing ******* skirmish over and over again, watching the same stupid tactics and shite colored light show that people have convinced themselves is "skill". LRMS are so gimped it takes actual skill to use them right and stay alive. I am so sick of ******** morons like you whinging about lrms while relying on laser, alpha vomit and destroying all possible good builds in favor of creating the most goddamn mindless freaking COD shooter possible. PGI is never going to create anything good for this game because cretins like yourself want only freaking deathball, skirmish easy mode.

Seriously, just leave the damn game already and maybe when enough of you bitching losers are gone PGI will stop catering to you try hards.

[Damia Savon]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

That is precisely what LRMs and SSRMs are doing....using LRMs is jokingly easy...

Laser spam and alpha are the real easy mode in this game. Point mech at the enemy, press left mouse, duck behind cover, repeat. You don't get any more basic and simple than that.

One
Button
Push

Tattoo it to your forehead because that is what imbeciles have brought the game too. But hey keep thinking you are some amazing badass. We all have our delusions.

[Xavori]

You want an honest evaluation of LRM's. Here goes:

Pro:
1000m range. That's the lower end of long range (ERLL, Gauss, ERPPC all beat it), but still good.
Indirect fire w/ spotter assistance (albeit much harder spotting rules than tabletop given the need for manual locks)
Roughly half the heat per damage of lasers

Con:
Requires slow target lock before firing
Reduced or zero damage at close range
Enemy provided obvious warning of incoming fire via slowest projectile in the game
Oppenent can move to either break lock or get to cover in the several seconds they know about incoming missiles
Irregular vertical behavior makes it easy to put rockets into nearby obstacles
Completely countered by ECM at range without additional support (ie. tag being held on target for entire firing and flight sequence)
At least 1/3 countered by a single, nonmodded AMS.
Limited ammo
Longest cooldowns in the game on LRM20 (AC20 cooldown is 4 vs LRM20 cooldown of 5.5)
Terrible spread damage on larger, more efficient launchers

The bottom line is that LRM's are currently the hardest to use weapons in the game. That more than anything else is why they are so disliked vs laservomit which is by far the easiest.

Btw, the easiest fix would be just to dump the manual locking of targets. If a teammate sees a target without ECM, they should broadcast it immediately and without the need to hit the R key. That alone would bring it so much closer to tabletop spotting rules and might be all it takes to bring the LRM back into the generally considered useful category.

[Tavious Grimm]

LRMS are support weapons designed to chip away at armor, a side benefit is that people scatter when the HUD lights up with INCOMING MISSILES. This allows the rest of the team with laser vomit and or ballistics to get into position to finish off the unfortunate mech or mechs. Of course if you carried Radar Derp/ ECM/AMS or even finding cover you could counter all that big nasty rain. In short, LRMS are a part of the game...Adapt or die.

[Novakaine]

Xavori, on 19 March 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

You want an honest evaluation of LRM's. Here goes:

Pro:
1000m range. That's the lower end of long range (ERLL, Gauss, ERPPC all beat it), but still good.
Indirect fire w/ spotter assistance (albeit much harder spotting rules than tabletop given the need for manual locks)
Roughly half the heat per damage of lasers

Con:
Requires slow target lock before firing
Reduced or zero damage at close range
Enemy provided obvious warning of incoming fire via slowest projectile in the game
Oppenent can move to either break lock or get to cover in the several seconds they know about incoming missiles
Irregular vertical behavior makes it easy to put rockets into nearby obstacles
Completely countered by ECM at range without additional support (ie. tag being held on target for entire firing and flight sequence)
At least 1/3 countered by a single, nonmodded AMS.
Limited ammo
Longest cooldowns in the game on LRM20 (AC20 cooldown is 4 vs LRM20 cooldown of 5.5)
Terrible spread damage on larger, more efficient launchers

The bottom line is that LRM's are currently the hardest to use weapons in the game. That more than anything else is why they are so disliked vs laservomit which is by far the easiest.

Btw, the easiest fix would be just to dump the manual locking of targets. If a teammate sees a target without ECM, they should broadcast it immediately and without the need to hit the R key. That alone would bring it so much closer to tabletop spotting rules and might be all it takes to bring the LRM back into the generally considered useful category.

[PraetorGix]

I laugh every time I see this. Supposedly no one who considers himself a "pro" would ever use lurms because they suck. But at the same time everyone uses them and they are OP? c'mon.

EDIT: on the other hand I f*cking HATE when some loser comes telling me that lurms are "easy mode". They are one of the hardest weapons to use in the game and many would be in a world of trouble if they had to learn to use lurms correctly.

Edited by PraetorGix, 19 March 2016 - 04:07 PM.

[Cold Darkness]

so, this thread is hilarious, because

Quote

For the most part the games felt mostly balanced and fair, but for one reason or another, LRM boating has always been my biggest pet peeve in the game. but until recently i wouldn't mind it too much. It normally wouldn't hinder game-play too frequently and generally I was able to ignore it.

i bolded out the important part. thats a MAJOR contradiction. if it was even remotely balanced, you would have never been able to ignore it. and if you wouldnt have been able to ignore them, you would have learend to handle them.


lets sum this up:

some players are complaining that lrms are to strong

some players are complaining that lrms are to weak

some players are saying lrms are easymode

some players are saying lrms are hard to use

now, we have 4 disitinct statements, and while this seems contradictory, it is not. why is that? you may ask. well, those statements come from 4 distinct groups of players.

first:

some players are complaining that lrms are to strong

this is commonly comming from people that have not yet the skillset to actually handle them, so: inexperienced players

second:

some players are complaining that lrms are to weak

this is commonly comming from people that play with experienced players (think tier 2 and 1)

third:

some players are saying lrms are easymode

this is commonly comming from people that used them during the tier grind and mostly have gone back on using them once the grind was mostly finished. so players that do not use them in a meaningful way

fourth:

some players are saying lrms are hard to use

this is commonly comming from people that actually try to utilize the weaponsystem after the tier grind is finished.


of course, people wouldnt accept something like that, but i am pretty sure that if people where actually honest about it, they would fit into one of these four groups easily.

anyways: while on this topic, i suggest to either remove radar deprivation module or, which makes more sense: to make radar deprivation shorten the time someone has a lock-on on your mech. both ways are much more healthy for the game, and the second option would actually only affect mechs with an actualy lock on retention module equipped, all other mechs would STILL instantly lose their lock-on.

know the most fun fact about both suggestions? theyd both majorly buff lrms vs experienced players and it would not even affect the inexperienced players. at all.

[Darth Hotz]

Am I reading right?

Some try to tell that LRMs need skill to be used?

A while ago there was a challenge were you had to play on each server. Being european I had and have pings on the oceanic server of 700+. With this ping and also drunk as I was that night I wasnt able to hit anything in my regular laser or ballistic mechs. So I jumped in my Hunchback 4J and produced top score game after game.

So with extreme ping and barely able to move the mouse straight you can still perform great in a lurm boat. Is this the kind of skill people talk about in this thread?

[MadcatX]

Xavori, on 19 March 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

Con:
Requires slow target lock before firing
Reduced or zero damage at close range
Enemy provided obvious warning of incoming fire via slowest projectile in the game
Oppenent can move to either break lock or get to cover in the several seconds they know about incoming missiles
Irregular vertical behavior makes it easy to put rockets into nearby obstacles
Completely countered by ECM at range without additional support (ie. tag being held on target for entire firing and flight sequence)
At least 1/3 countered by a single, nonmodded AMS.
Limited ammo
Longest cooldowns in the game on LRM20 (AC20 cooldown is 4 vs LRM20 cooldown of 5.5)
Terrible spread damage on larger, more efficient launchers

Missed one:
- Adv. Target Decay module is almost a requirement