103 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

DevlinCognito, on 03 April 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

Aye, it is pretty balanced at the moment.

Inner Sphere Mechs are crunchy. Yes they stand up longer and (properly built) put out alphas that rival equal tonnage Clan Omnis, but once they lose a torso, they dead.

Clan Mechs on the other hand are chewy. While not as initially tough as Inner Sphere, they can still lose a torso and continue fighting with big payloads (again if built right).

No matter what is said or done though, fanatics from BOTH sides are going to cry, moan and ***** that THEIR side is hard done by, nothing will change that. Anyone with an ounce of sense though will ignore these wild eyed idiots.

I've seen people jump on the fact that the IS quirks are so OP. 'Look! The IS have a 50 tonne Mech that is so over quirked it has the armour of a 70 tonner! That proves IS are OP.. ' yet not one of these people have asked themselves why the 4SP isn't seen continuously with all these uber quirks. They complain the Black Knight is the most OP Mech in the game, yet are quite happy to forget that the IS can't build a 75 tonne Mech that has a 72 point alpha, moves at 87kph and can afford to lose a torso without going boom. They can't seem to wrap their heads round that yes Clans outrange IS and have lighter weapons, but they need to hold their weapons on target for longer to get the full effect. Some people are going to complain no matter what.

Yep.

Clans have numerous advantages - you just have to, you know. Use them. If you build a TBR LRM boat you are literally ******** all over all the advantages you have over the IS to make something that's not much better than a 65 ton Catapult all while denying your team the armor of a 75 ton mech in their defense, throwing away what your mobility advantages can do for you.

Which is par for the course. Making terrible builds and bad strategy choices and then losing to a team that made good builds and used strats that played to their strengths and then say it's unbalanced?

It is unbalanced. Terribly unbalanced. Not being stupid is insanely OP. Playing to your strengths and exploiting the enemy weaknesses? Unbalanced as ****. Fortunately those are available to both IS and Clans.

[Kin3ticX]

ignoring pros and cons performance wise of the tech bases, the convenience factor of omnitech alone is an huge unspoken advantage


you can often build the exact or near exact build on any variant of the same omnimech



while with IS you have to actually buy dupes to get the hardpoints or quirk you want

[Deathlike]

Richter Kerensky, on 22 March 2016 - 10:19 PM, said:

...













...







...

You have won CW!

Confirm
Are you sure you want to quit? (Y/N)

Edited by Deathlike, 03 April 2016 - 04:36 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I think now that Clan tech isn't 'pants on head OP' anymore they players and teams getting carried to victory on the quality of equipment are getting a rude wake-up now that they're running into opponents that have gotten equal quality equipment now after having garbage tech for two years now.

That compounded with the quirks on IS mechs giving a general guideline on how to build the mech reduces the number of good chassis with autismo builds on them (see: quad LRM Timber).

And since the few good clan units are on rotation all the glue eating Clanners that relied on being carried no longer have a clue what to do now that they need to actually put forth some effort.

The OP sounds like that kid on the playground. You know the one with the ball that leaves and takes his ball with him when he starts losing?

[Agent1190]

I think balance is in a good place. There's a few things I wouldn't mind seeing "tweaked" (yes, tweaked, meaning minor changes):

1. I wouldn't mind seeing some duration adjustments to clan lasers and pulse lasers now that IS Mechs are more durable. Shave .1 second off the C-ERLL, and maybe .25 off the C-LPL (it's almost double the duration of IS LPL), .15 off the C-ERML. The rest feel like they are in a good place. Don't touch the heat (that's the trade off).

2. Clan ACs should be re-worked to mirror IS ACs. Increase cool down to compensate if you have to, but give us a reason to carry ACs over UACs. It makes them unique.

3. I think some of the ST penalties need to be removed. Either restore our movement to norms OR restore heat efficiency to norms. The combination of the 2 is a little much
-OR-
find a way to tie the IS side torso structure quirks to an XL engine, so if they are running Standard Engines, they take less damage to shoot off (face it, the reason IS STs have so much structure is to compensate for fragile XL engines).

4. IS center torsos need less structure quirks (I said "less", not "none"), since destroying a CT will kill ANYTHING regardless of technology, and they should be protecting the CT by rolling damage to the extra strong side torsos.

[Adamski]

Agent1190, on 03 April 2016 - 05:48 PM, said:

I think balance is in a good place. There's a few things I wouldn't mind seeing "tweaked" (yes, tweaked, meaning minor changes):

1. I wouldn't mind seeing some duration adjustments to clan lasers and pulse lasers now that IS Mechs are more durable. Shave .1 second off the C-ERLL, and maybe .25 off the C-LPL (it's almost double the duration of IS LPL), .15 off the C-ERML. The rest feel like they are in a good place. Don't touch the heat (that's the trade off).

2. Clan ACs should be re-worked to mirror IS ACs. Increase cool down to compensate if you have to, but give us a reason to carry ACs over UACs. It makes them unique.

3. I think some of the ST penalties need to be removed. Either restore our movement to norms OR restore heat efficiency to norms. The combination of the 2 is a little much
-OR-
find a way to tie the IS side torso structure quirks to an XL engine, so if they are running Standard Engines, they take less damage to shoot off (face it, the reason IS STs have so much structure is to compensate for fragile XL engines).

4. IS center torsos need less structure quirks (I said "less", not "none"), since destroying a CT will kill ANYTHING regardless of technology, and they should be protecting the CT by rolling damage to the extra strong side torsos.

1. Agree on the C-ERLL, the C-LPL can keep the longer burn time since its both lighter and much further range than the IS-LPL, same the C-ERML can remain the same considering the advantages over the IS-ML

2. Agree, Clan ACs should have single shot like the IS ACs, and just give them lower DPS to account for the lighter weight and smaller slot requirements

3. IS get structure quirks because of fragile IS XL
-OR-
IS get structure quirks because they move much slower and are easier to hit with heavier slower Standard engines

4. See #3

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

My question, is it possible to win at all if the IS is so imbalanced?

Was it ever possible for the IS side to win if the Clans were as imbalanced as they are?

Is it better to stop playing while things are rough. Is there no benefit to playing currently as things are impossible?

[PFC Carsten]

dervishx5, on 23 March 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

I was actually referring to using javelins to kill your opponents in basketball. Yeah it's cheating but it's fun.

Is that really part of the NBA rules? Not killing enem...err opfor with javelins I mean?

[MaxFool]

PFC Carsten, on 04 April 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

Is that really part of the NBA rules? Not killing enem...err opfor with javelins I mean?

You can't put every single possible thing in rules, so every sport has rules like "unsportsmanlike like behavior" or something general like that, which will be applied to cases like using javelin in basketball if nothing else applies. And often once some wiseass has tested the boundaries of rules, and thrown javelin in basketball court, they will make a specific rule about not using track&field equipment in basketball.

Edited by MaxFool, 04 April 2016 - 10:11 AM.

[Depressing-Fire]

Maybe we should all sit infront of the refridgerater and listen to the gentle hum.

[MischiefSC]

Daisu Saikoro, on 04 April 2016 - 02:06 AM, said:

My question, is it possible to win at all if the IS is so imbalanced?

Was it ever possible for the IS side to win if the Clans were as imbalanced as they are?

Is it better to stop playing while things are rough. Is there no benefit to playing currently as things are impossible?

All those questions are broken.

If IS is so imbalanced you'd see it in QP as well, like we did with Clans.

If IS is so imbalanced the two factions that have taken the most worlds wouldn't be CSJ and CGB.

If IS is imbalanced at all the competitive players wouldn't be saying that balance is as good as it's ever been, unless actually all the people who are the best at this game don't understand it as well as the dedicated Clan players who keep losing even while everyone else is winning.

The IS won some matches but lost constantly to the Clans overall - everyone at a competitive level agreed that Clans were OP as hell, hence they pretty much all went Clans. Currently that's what has many of them in IS - they never bothered to get LP rewards for the IS because playing at a huge disadvantage wasn't fun for competitive players in general. Now they're maxing out LP rewards in places they rarely played so long as they can get a match.

[Jman5]

Charles Sennet, on 22 March 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

Fellow Trothkin,

The time has come to return home. Our ranks are thinning; more and more pilots leave us every day. Soon, after pilots are finished farming loyalty points, only true Clan loyalists will remain.

Our ‘Mechs, once the admiration of all, have suffered many rounds of setbacks and no are longer a match for the magically-quirked machines of the Inner Sphere. Our side torsos are too exposed; our arms are too low; our heat is too high; our beams are too long; our auto cannons are too imprecise; our armor is too fragile.

Some Clan chassis got a recent upgrade but they are still fundamentally flawed by design. We await the Kodiak, but it appears that it will not be enough to fight off waves of Atlases and Black Nights which appear armored by divinity. There is currently little special about a Clan ‘Mech...

Yet, we do not seek technology superiority. We seek only a balanced fight.

The time has come for us to return to Clan space until our technology is upgraded. If our
enemy is smart, they are rooting for improvements from our manufacturer, otherwise they will have no one to fight but themselves. History says that does not bode well for them.

If all you want are perfectly balanced fights, go invade some Clan Planets. The last wolf planet, Harvest, has been sitting in your faction's attack lane for weeks. Go take it from them and you'll get some Clan vs Clan fights.

Edited by Jman5, 04 April 2016 - 01:45 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Jman5, on 04 April 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

If all you want are perfectly balanced fights, go invade some Clan Planets. The last wolf planet, Harvest, has been sitting in your faction's attack lane for weeks. Go take it from them and you'll get some Clan vs Clan fights.

Huh. That would make sense, wouldn't it?

Then again I think they're not using the word 'balanced' like you're using the word 'balance'.

You mean 'equal to one another'.

They mean 'I'm still likely to win even with bad builds and no strategy'.

Which is sorta the crux of it. We're talking about 'all other things being equal the tech is pretty close to balanced right now'.

They're talking about 'I just want to do the same bad stuff I've always done and still be likely to win against people with better built mechs and playing more intelligently, like I used to.'

They're not talking about tech balance. They want something akin to PSR where no matter what you do or what trash you drop with you're still around 50/50 or better.

[Chef Kerensky]

Willhelm Vargen, on 04 April 2016 - 10:32 AM, said:

Maybe we should all sit infront of the refridgerater and listen to the gentle hum.

This sounds dangerously close to banging rocks together for entertainment. I have my eye on you, clanner.

[Depressing-Fire]

Chef Kerensky, on 05 April 2016 - 03:52 AM, said:

This sounds dangerously close to banging rocks together for entertainment. I have my eye on you, clanner.

I'm sorry Dad, I'll make you proud one day Dad, love you Dad.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

MischiefSC, on 04 April 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

Huh. That would make sense, wouldn't it?

Then again I think they're not using the word 'balanced' like you're using the word 'balance'.

You mean 'equal to one another'.

They mean 'I'm still likely to win even with bad builds and no strategy'.

Which is sorta the crux of it. We're talking about 'all other things being equal the tech is pretty close to balanced right now'.

They're talking about 'I just want to do the same bad stuff I've always done and still be likely to win against people with better built mechs and playing more intelligently, like I used to.'

They're not talking about tech balance. They want something akin to PSR where no matter what you do or what trash you drop with you're still around 50/50 or better.

We could nerf the **** out of clan weapons, then give the mechs mass quirks like with the IS so that way the clans have something to guide them so we see less of these:

DWF-PRIME
TBR-C
NVA-C
KFX-PRIME

And more of these:
ADR-PRIME
SCR-PRIME
EBJ-A
EXE-PRIME

And while those are hardly optimized, they'd put up a better fight than the first four that I see ALL THE GODDAMN TIME.

[zaku2142]

True warriors of the Clans would not use words to fight, but actions. I enjoy a good bloodbath, fighting tough odds. Any Clan warrior that whines does not deserve to be within our ranks. We will continue fighting the IS like we have.

Edited by zaku2142, 13 April 2016 - 03:13 AM.

[Rattazustra]

MischiefSC, on 04 April 2016 - 01:40 PM, said:

If IS is so imbalanced you'd see it in QP as well, like we did with Clans.

No, we would not. The game has changed a lot since then. Due to the introduction and constant expansion of IS quirks we can no longer discuss IS vs. Clan balance on general terms. Structure and armor quirks for example have a different effect on the match, based on the number of mechs present, the number of mechs amassed and the design of the map. You can NOT see it in QP because QP maps and game dynamics are just not the same as in CW.

MischiefSC, on 04 April 2016 - 01:40 PM, said:

If IS is imbalanced at all the competitive players wouldn't be saying that balance is as good as it's ever been, unless actually all the people who are the best at this game don't understand it as well as the dedicated Clan players who keep losing even while everyone else is winning.

That would be a good point, actually. Only it is not. When you say "competitive players" I am actually curious what you mean by that. Do you mean players with a competitive mindset, or do you mean players who play league matches? Eventually it doesn't matter, because in both cases your point would be nonsensical. The mindset of playing competitively is not limited to any specific group of players that you could possibly identify without a doubt and league play has nothing to do with CW. It plays on different maps and with different numbers and tonnage structures.

The game is fine in Quick Play because QP is essentially inherently chaotic. The chaos that is introduced because there is absolutely no build synergy and no pre-grouped teams makes it impossible to tell IF the game is actually balanced, or if it only SEEMS to be. If you distribute imbalanced factors randomly they will not stick out that much. There is group queue, of course. Yet group queue is also rarely ever useful for comparison because of the tonnage inequality. Whoever thought that it was a smart move to actively punish and balance for teamwork did a good job of making comparison that much harder.

No matter what you think of the current state of balance, you will always be wrong if you make the assumption that it would be the same for all game modes. This is simply impossible, because the game dynamics are inherently different different. Since PGI never conciously decided to follow ONE design philosophy (or even bothered to define one in the first place), the game can actually never be balanced. It is simply impossible, because once it is balanced for one match type, it is imbalanced in another simply because the math is different there.

If PGI should ever truly want to fix this they'd have to break everything down into a unified calculation and define one standard for the game's map design, then adjust all maps that do not match it.

[MischiefSC]

Competitive play is about identifying advantages and exporting them. By that I mean league play and the people who excel at league play. Those same people use the same approach to CW.

So the people who are best at finding and exploiting imbalances are the ones who are saying balance is the best it's ever been. IS lpls need a tweak, Oxide needs dialed back. Those are pretty edge though, far from any of the imbalances we've had before. Like a fraction click of the dial.

Balance is always a moving target. It's never perfect on a game more dynamic than chess or the like. MWO, from QP to CW, is about as close to balanced as you can expect. I hope that as it swing back and forth it stays at about this level of variance.

[Rushin Roulette]

MischiefSC, on 14 April 2016 - 07:21 AM, said:

So the people who are best at finding and exploiting imbalances are the ones who are saying balance is the best it's ever been. IS lpls need a tweak, Oxide needs dialed back. Those are pretty edge though, far from any of the imbalances we've had before. Like a fraction click of the dial.

You can actually leave the Oxide as it is now that the clans have the Jenner twosee . They can now bring similar speeds with a much higher Alpha (while firing slower than the Oxide due to quirks, the DPS is more or less balanced though). The Clan version has a bigger hitbox than the Oxide, but for that it can use Jumpjets to counter that. In the end it is again a balance between toughness vs. mobility and alpha vs. sustained firepower. Both are more than viable for comp play for their weight brackets.