555 replies to this topic

[dervishx5]

I'm cool with WoB killing everyone in MWO.

[kentares kodiak]

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:

Yet again, the original developers said that the Clan/IS balance was totally screwed up and a bad experience. The reason for the WoB storyline and nuking everything was to correct that mistake and go to 1 to 1 balance...

No they didnt. Dont be such a mischief. What they did say was that they didnt expect to have such an impact in the game since players got creactive (as usual) and somethings didnt go as they wanted/planned and that the WoB storyline presented them with an opportunity to go back to the old scavenging times of 3025 by destroying most of the arms race that the last 15 years (real time not ingame) made (specially the Aerospace stuff like Warships - in 3025 very few ships existed and were very difficult to repair). Also was used to connect the setting with the Wizkids game line.

When the devs (which by the way arent the same in charge now) introduced the clans it was their intention to have them stronger than the IS (from the beggining) hence the Zellbringen and Batchall to balance things (and give a different flavor to them storywise - granted that that "balance" could have been better but this is what we got so...)

Of course those things arent possible in the game (yet) so PGI had to make changes or the clans would always run over IS (since its always the same numbers on each side).

Edited by kentares kodiak, 23 March 2016 - 05:41 PM.

[Johnny Z]

kentares kodiak, on 23 March 2016 - 04:21 PM, said:

No they didnt. Dont be such a mischief. What they did say was that they didnt expect to have such an impact in the game since players got creactive (as usual) and somethings didnt go as they wanted/planned and that the WoB storyline presented them with an opportunity to go back to the old scavenging times of 3025 by destroying most of the arms race that the last 15 years (real time not ingame) made (specially the Aerospace stuff like Warships - in 3025 very few ships existed and were very difficult to repair). Also was used to connect the setting with the Wizkids game line.

When the devs (which by the way arent the same in charge now) introduced the clans it was their intention to have them stronger than the IS (from the beggining) hence the Zellbringen and Batchall to balance things (and give a different flavor to them storywise - granted that that "balance" could have been better but this is what we got so...)

Of course those things arent possible in the game (yet) so PGI had to make changes or the clans would always run over IS (since its always the same numbers on each side).

Well the Clans not being original Battletech, its really all irrelevant add ons really isn't it.

I'm glad MechWarrior Online which didn't have Clans to start, remained true to the spirit of the original Battletech.

While true many players lament the loss of easy mode that was added to Battletech and to this game for a short while, I am sure they can grow a pair and deal with it.

I hope the story can be salvaged to some degree after the trashing that took in the process of adding easy mode.

One of the things that bothers me the most is in original Battletech all the Great houses which are based on Medieval society and feudalism and by definition honor was somehow transformed into the Clans being known for honor which makes absolutely no sense in any way.

Don't even get me started on Natasha Kerensky who spent most of her life building a reputation as the most notorious mercenary in the Inner Sphere and players are supposed to believe that she was a spy and betrayed that as well as everyone she worked with and for, for years....

Battletech combat is supposed to be this below, in the year 3025. Being made in the 80's and some of the themes involved, including the Clans which were a great addition, a cyberpunk theme was also part of the mix.





This would be a good trailer for Solaris.



Its nice that everyone is making great trailers for MechWarrior Online or what?

Just one MechWarrior Online players take on things.

Edited by Johnny Z, 23 March 2016 - 06:26 PM.

[MischiefSC]

kentares kodiak, on 23 March 2016 - 04:21 PM, said:

No they didnt. Dont be such a mischief. What they did say was that they didnt expect to have such an impact in the game since players got creactive (as usual) and somethings didnt go as they wanted/planned and that the WoB storyline presented them with an opportunity to go back to the old scavenging times of 3025 by destroying most of the arms race that the last 15 years (real time not ingame) made (specially the Aerospace stuff like Warships - in 3025 very few ships existed and were very difficult to repair). Also was used to connect the setting with the Wizkids game line.

When the devs (which by the way arent the same in charge now) introduced the clans it was their intention to have them stronger than the IS (from the beggining) hence the Zellbringen and Batchall to balance things (and give a different flavor to them storywise - granted that that "balance" could have been better but this is what we got so...)

Of course those things arent possible in the game (yet) so PGI had to make changes or the clans would always run over IS (since its always the same numbers on each side).

Nope.

As someone who went to gaming cons and such I've seen the devs apologize over it. It works okay in a PVE context with the GM running one side and managing the threat level and the players being set up to win out of the gate. It was absolute unmitigated **** for PvP and totally broken. BV never worked and was easy to game.

That is why it got changed to 1 to 1 balance and they 'started over'. They even redid the Kerensky story line with Devin Stone.

Clan/IS was always broke as **** for PvP. Beyond which we are each on person, not controlling a Lance of mechs each, etc erc. There's a laundry list of flaws with trying to create an asymmetric balance mechanic here.

Beyond which, to reiterate, Clan/IS balance was **** and total **** for PvP hence BT retooled for 1 to 1 balance.

[Blue Shadow]

Apnu, on 22 March 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

Because PGI wants every mech, ton-for-ton, to be equal. And PGI wants mixed tech teams, and PGI wants the game to always be 12v12.

The clans get all kinds of bennies the IS don't. Free CASE on everything. lighter, smaller, and longer range weapons. Two slot heat sinks. Two slot per torso XL engines. All of which is in the original source books and canon of Battletech.

So to compensate for that, and some model design advantages like the SCR, they get bad quirks to make them competitive against the IS in a generic sense.

Pity because the IS should be about brawling and endurance, and the clans should be about range, but not so.

It also hurts the game that PGI still hasn't figured out how to make "community warfare" an actual pillar of the game instead of a mode for comp teams on crappy maps.

If they took a IS map centric view of the game. Were all games mattered to the outcome of the IS map in some way, where players were encouraged to pick a faction and stick with it, maybe allow players to have multiple pilots in different factions, then we can have less negative Clan quirks.

Imagine if taking a clan mech meant you were stuck on a clan only team and had 10 players on the team. And maybe you'd face another clan team of the same rough weight, or maybe you faced an IS team of 12, but also less quirks and more brawly, that would be fun and BT/MW fluffy.

Imagine also that PUG games were faction based, generic one-off brawls like the above (IS v IS, Clan v Clan, or IS v Clan) but the winning of the game meant some kind of faction perk. Like a flash sale of some kind. Or cheaper mech purchases because that planet makes x mech and your faction or "race" owns it.

You could still have the Invasion mode, initiated by teams wanting to open attack lanes and/or challenge other teams.

Its win-win for everybody.

But PGI isn't there yet. So we keep this wall between the Quick Play players and the Faction Warfare player, and because Quick Play is such a mix-and-match slop bucket, IS and clan tech has to be equal. Which ruins the feel and immersion of the game.

^This is what MWO needs so badly.

[JC Daxion]

You know these threads make me laugh... I never played clans till after the nerf in December..

The few clan mechs i have played, Timber, and Exe are right up there with my top IS mechs. In fact my clan mechs, actually have a tad higher over all damage as well.


I'm hardly an expert at all the clan mechs, but i can say the good ones, rock.. and are right on par with the top IS mechs. Anyone that uses clan's or IS are over powered, or what ever, is just making excuses.

i get some clan mechs need help.. then again so do some IS mechs.. But balance is far better now than it was a couple years ago.


But i do enjoy the battle tech loyalists.. the previous mech games, and mech commander where not all that stuck on T top rules from what i can see. all had flaws, and most importantly all had Major power creep which would really kill most of the mechs in this game.

Edited by JC Daxion, 23 March 2016 - 08:13 PM.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

JC Daxion, on 23 March 2016 - 08:10 PM, said:

Exe are right up there with my top IS mechs.

Thats because the Gladbag is a excellent mobile suit. Anyone who says otherwise is a pinko commie ******* and you should kill them.

[Wolfways]

JC Daxion, on 23 March 2016 - 08:10 PM, said:

The few clan mechs i have played, Timber, and Exe are right up there with my top IS mechs. In fact my clan mechs, actually have a tad higher over all damage as well.


I'm hardly an expert at all the clan mechs, but i can say the good ones, rock.. and are right on par with the top IS mechs. Anyone that uses clan's or IS are over powered, or what ever, is just making excuses.

Or maybe not everyone does well in both factions mechs.
I know I find IS mechs much easier to play and are massively tanky compared to clan mechs.
My wife can't do well in clan mechs at all and has pretty much abandoned her clan account because she thinks they are "pathectic paper-armoured piles of ****".

[DovisKhan]

Wolfways, on 23 March 2016 - 10:11 PM, said:

Or maybe not everyone does well in both factions mechs.
I know I find IS mechs much easier to play and are massively tanky compared to clan mechs.
My wife can't do well in clan mechs at all and has pretty much abandoned her clan account because she thinks they are "pathectic paper-armoured piles of ****".

That's cause you're both tunnel vision bullet sponges.


If you're not tactically oblivious you will make use of objectively superior mobility, weapon range and damage. In any pvp game: damage > hitpoints


As someone who plays both, Clans and IS I find it much easier to rack up higher damage scores in Clan mechs. Sure I can wipe the floor with any Clan heavy in a brawl with my Marauder, but pounding at a distance, peeking, flanking and everything else is easier with a Clan mech.

[SplashDown]

Nothing ive read on page 7 of this thread has anything to do with the subject being debated in this thread

[DovisKhan]

Grisbane, on 23 March 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

better and more enjoyable is in the eyes of the beholder.. I don't find neutering tech and almost complete disregard for lore better, nor do i find the fact they did so for the sake of "MMO balance" more enjoyable. Battletech was never designed as a MMO. in order for it to be a Battletech game, it should be emulating Battletech onto a video game platform. right now MWO is the FURTHEST Mechwarrior title from cannon by far. every other title to date has at least attempted to emulate the cannon onto a digital game platform.. MWO only uses mech/weapon shapes and names, nothing else.. and the timeline is only used as an excuse for withholding certain tech.

there is pretty much nothing Battletech about this game. as such it shouldn't be calling itself something it clearly has no interest in being. PGI has a different vision, different from the Tabletop game from which it uses certain intellectual properties from.. which is fine. but if that's what they are doing, then them calling themselves something they clearly have no interest in being is putting up a false front at best. had it used the Mechwarrior title alone.. no problem.. but the second they decided to grossly depart from lore they should cease associating themselves from a game they clearly have no, nor want any real, true connection with.

lol so you want easy mode Clan mechs 3x better at everything right? Well if matchmaker would pit 12 Clan vs 36 IS mechs I agree.

[Idealsuspect]

Avalon91211, on 22 March 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

Now Clan mechs carry a lot of firepower true, but when our weapons and our armor is nerfed to hell, it means jack compared to the IS mechs. So now, I am begging here, please fully unnerf the Clan mechs and find another way to balance it out so that the IS players don't whine about it. If you have to, do 10v12, a binary against a company. Just make it so the Clans have a chance here.

What the f*** he is talking about .... Just play smarter, better and maybe with propers builds.

[Johnny Z]

Grisbane, on 23 March 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

better and more enjoyable is in the eyes of the beholder.. I don't find neutering tech and almost complete disregard for lore better, nor do i find the fact they did so for the sake of "MMO balance" more enjoyable. Battletech was never designed as a MMO. in order for it to be a Battletech game, it should be emulating Battletech onto a video game platform. right now MWO is the FURTHEST Mechwarrior title from cannon by far. every other title to date has at least attempted to emulate the cannon onto a digital game platform.. MWO only uses mech/weapon shapes and names, nothing else.. and the timeline is only used as an excuse for withholding certain tech.

there is pretty much nothing Battletech about this game. as such it shouldn't be calling itself something it clearly has no interest in being. PGI has a different vision, different from the Tabletop game from which it uses certain intellectual properties from.. which is fine. but if that's what they are doing, then them calling themselves something they clearly have no interest in being is putting up a false front at best. had it used the Mechwarrior title alone.. no problem.. but the second they decided to grossly depart from lore they should cease associating themselves from a game they clearly have no, nor want any real, true connection with.

Weak arguement is weak.. While a very well said weak argument it doesn't change the fact that having one side cannon fodder for the other makes for a bad online game AND is unrealistic. I am not going into the details of unrealistic.



This is either a desperate plea for easy mode or an attempt to hamstring this game. Same goes for the way Clans were first added to the board game even...... Clans being an excellent addition. Seriously. To bad so much effort was put into ruining them. After the easy mode Clan mechs for so long in this game I couldn't be paid to pilot a Clan mech on live.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 March 2016 - 04:14 AM.

[Johnny Z]

SplashDown, on 23 March 2016 - 11:35 PM, said:

Nothing ive read on page 7 of this thread has anything to do with the subject being debated in this thread

Topic title > your reading comprehension.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 March 2016 - 04:23 AM.

[DovisKhan]

Grisbane, on 24 March 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

never said i did. there are other ways of balancing the game.. MWLL did it very well. pity PGI didn't use the model, especially since the guy who designed it now works for them. I would have rather had less Clan vs more IS, i was actually a supporter of this before the clans even arrived. I don't want easy mode. I want lore correct.. sadly this is a MMO, so that doesn't work with the 1-1 balancing system PGI is adopting.




It's neither, like said above, there are other ways of balancing the game.. not everything had to be based on 1v1 combat. Clans made properly aren't true easy mode. you put a new pilot in one they'll end up shutdown and dead very quickly as heat is a huge issue with them. Clan mechs are high ceiling/high floor, or at least they are supposed to be. while IS mechs have a much lower skill floor at the cost of the ceiling not being quite as high. as such you would be seeing the best players in Clan mechs and lower players in IS, with a medium skilled player in either/or depending on which side of the spectrum they are closer to.

but i think you fail to comprehend my argument.. my argument is the fact that this is NOT a Battletech game since it fails to follow lore... even remotely, plain and simple. they can have their form of balance.. do i agree with it.. no. Like i said before, had they followed in MWLL footsteps this would be very much a Battletech game. Clan vs IS balance would be fine, there would be no easy-mode for either side. but they took the "i want it now/instant gratification" route in order to make an easy buck at the cost of core gameplay. As such, while this is indeed a MECHWARRIOR title.. it is NOT a Battletech title. to be clear a Mechwarrior title uses Battletech intellectual properties on digital media but is not bound to cannon. a Battletech title uses not only intellectual properties, but follows the cannon. MWO does NOT follow the cannon, therefore it is NOT a Battletech game.

This doesn't translate into a multiplayer game, there is not a snowballs chance in hell the population would split in this required proportion, much more likely than not, you'd have 80% playing Clan tech and waiting ridiculous times for a match


That's why IS must be = Clan tech in terms of efficiency, how this = is reached does not matter, but you have to have a 50% win chance between equally skilled pilots regardless of which faction they use

[Triordinant]

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:

Yet again, the original developers said that the Clan/IS balance was totally screwed up and a bad experience. The reason for the WoB storyline and nuking everything was to correct that mistake and go to 1 to 1 balance. We are not obligated to repeat the same mistakes.

I get that some people want a sanctioned excuse to play OP tech compared to everyone else. To have an official lore sanctioned reason to try and substitute imbalanced game mechanics for skill, so they can pretend they are great without having to actually be good at the game.

We did 10 v 12 with lore stats in several tests. It was a wipe - 12 IS mechs destroyed 10 Clan mechs with lore stats every time. Because Clan players are NOT vat-grown supermen, they just want to pretend they are.

So you would end up artificially nerfing the IS extra so the Clan players can pretend to be better than they actually are.

Instead we've come to the same conclusion FASA did - bad Clan-IS balance is total ****, balanced 1 for 1. If you want to be a superior warrior in the game you have to actually be good at the game, not demand that the developers skew game balance to help you pretend you are better than you are.

[TKSax]

Grisbane, on 24 March 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

never said i did. there are other ways of balancing the game.. MWLL did it very well. pity PGI didn't use the model, especially since the guy who designed it now works for them. It was rumored that they helped PGI with the initial gameplay when the game first launched since they were already working at CryTek, but that has always been just a rumor.

MWLL was not balanced it had other issues, all it took was some who was really good in the game and they would get to best mech/aero fighter and start devastating the other team. As far as I know no one from Wandering Samauri works for PGI, the work for CryTek and RSI

Grisbane, on 24 March 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

Clan mechs are high ceiling/high floor, or at least they are supposed to be. while IS mechs have a much lower skill floor at the cost of the ceiling not being quite as high. as such you would be seeing the best players in Clan mechs and lower players in IS, with a medium skilled player in either/or depending on which side of the spectrum they are closer to.

And how is that balance? Top players in best Mechs, that's not balance your fooling yourself. I am all for having something to things skill in the game to use well, but not whole mechs from a faction.

Grisbane, on 24 March 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

my argument is the fact that this is NOT a Battletech game since it fails to follow lore...

Its not a Fact, it is an opinion. The facts are a year or 2 ago PGI added the "A battletech Game" to the tag line of MWO, they did not do that in a vacuum, they had to talk to the Battletech people to get that done. Randel Bills is writing Lore for the Hero mechs in MWO and making them Cannon, so the Hero mechs "follow" lore, or are having lore created by them. MWLL was no more a Battletech game the MWO, it was not Called Battletech Living Legends, it was called Mechwarrior Living Legends.

Edited by TKSax, 24 March 2016 - 05:53 AM.

[TKSax]

Grisbane, on 24 March 2016 - 05:52 AM, said:

the game was very popular till this game came along and practically snuffed it out.

LOL it was never Very Popular it had what 200 300 people playing at its height? MWLL was awesome free mod of Crysis 2 but it had a lot of its own problems. When MWO came out and before Wandering Studios stopped development they game was already dead as most people had switched to here. I remember there being about maybe 20 people a night playing. There still are about around that many now, but most of the play when I am work so I don't get to play much MWLL. MWLL was no closer to lore that MWO, because we all know that in the Battletech universe when you eject from a mech you are in power armor....

[kentares kodiak]

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2016 - 06:05 PM, said:

Nope.

As someone who went to gaming cons and such I've seen the devs apologize over it. It works okay in a PVE context with the GM running one side and managing the threat level and the players being set up to win out of the gate. It was absolute unmitigated **** for PvP and totally broken. BV never worked and was easy to game.

That is why it got changed to 1 to 1 balance and they 'started over'. They even redid the Kerensky story line with Devin Stone.

Clan/IS was always broke as **** for PvP. Beyond which we are each on person, not controlling a Lance of mechs each, etc erc. There's a laundry list of flaws with trying to create an asymmetric balance mechanic here.

Beyond which, to reiterate, Clan/IS balance was **** and total **** for PvP hence BT retooled for 1 to 1 balance.

Ive been to NASA several times but that doesnt make me an astronaut.

Youre either trolling or live in another world. There never was an apology from the devs. It was always their intention to have the clans stronger. Battletech was always made to be played without a GM (in fact even the scenario books dont require one with only a handful exceptions). Only the RPG scenarios are meant to be played with a GM. The Battle Value was created several years after and for tournament purposes (players enjoyed and was made into a standard at the time... as easy to game as it was).

They never "started over" nothing. They never changed nothing. There wasnt nothing to change. They didnt "redid" Kerensky storyline with Devlin Stone.

I doubt you played Battletech table top game... The "brokeness" you mention is not so broken if you play the game as it should be (it was "hard" mode at that).

Dont mix a table top game with a inherent necessity to have balance in a online game as I mentioned before PGI cant enforce Zellbringen and Batchall.

Edited by kentares kodiak, 24 March 2016 - 09:29 AM.

[Stargazzer811]

Before I get down to business, first let me thank people such as Apnu and Splashdown for trying to actually take my topic and make a reasonable, intelligent discussion out of it. To those that tried, thank you, your effort and advice are appreciated.

Second, those who want to whine about cheating, there are plenty of threads for such things elsewhere. Please use them instead of this thread, thank you.

Now I think I need to explain to several people like Cathy what I'm actually talking about here. First off yes I am mainly, though not entirely talking about Community Warfare and my experiences in that domain. As all of Clans Jade Falcon and Wolf can attest, I'm not far wrong when I'm talking about the IS Assault rushes.

Also for those who didn't notice, or perhaps is slipped your mind, this is not about me getting down on the Inner Sphere players. I actually used to fight for House Davion in CW Beta 1, and am used to having my *** handed to me by the Clans. Did I whine about it? NO, I simply switched to the Clans and fought with them. I still love IS mechs, in fact the Black Knight 6B is one of my favorites, and I personally own a King Crab KCB-000B that I adore with all my heart.

Let me be crystal clear here: I am not wanting Clan mechs to be overpowered. In fact I'm in the same boat as the majority of Clan players who simply want balance across the tonnage ranges for the Inner Sphere comparable mechs. A Summoner Prime and Black Knight 6B should be able to go head to head 10 times in a row and have the victory come down to sheer pilot skill, and not to how much damage a mech can soak up or dish out. About 70% of all current Clan mechs are woefully underpowered for their tonnage. Bear in mind I'm not talking weapons, the balance there is great. Furthermore the Clans have fewer mechs then the Inner Sphere, AND fewer still mechs with Quirks then the Inner Sphere.

I simply want to hear reasonable ideas and input here so that perhaps the Dev's will read this and try to find us some balance. With battlemechs on both sides balanced, I think everyone would have more fun as the win/loss chance would be split 50/50, which would mean it would come down to sheer luck and a great deal of skill to win a match, making them more fun.