555 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

No Gyrok what you're talking about is the idea that all IS decks are optimized for everything. You're arguing that if a Clan mech can beat X it can't beat Y. If it can beat Y it can't always also beat X.

That's the point. I get you want to have the winning hand for every situation but that's not balanced. Currently you can run a lot of excellent builds on Clan mechs that can effectively combat whatever niche situational optimized deck an IS team brings.

Also how much damage does a TBR do at 425m, how much does the BK? For how much heat?

If you can't out trade a BK at optimal laservomit range that explains a lot.

So you can roll damage to CT and ST on a TBR and twist far enough to actually show your back if you're not careful. From the side like you're talking about the tip of the TBRs snoot (which is CT) is a smaller target than the BKs CT from the side. Is it just that you have to always assume the other player is a way better shot than you?

Having dropped with AWOL and MS and rolled you guys along with both I'm struggling to believe you. Maybe it was an off day? Training new members? I look at the CW map and I see numerous CGB unit tags on worlds, few 228. Maybe they all use hax? Maybe all the units fight Wolf and only pugs fight CGB?

If you guys always win against units in IS mechs then doesn't that invalidate your argument?

Not to mention that all the other Clan units who do fine or merc units that do both seem to consider balance good. So... yeah.

Good luck though. Sorry Clans are only balanced and not OP.

[Adamski]

Mcgral18, on 26 March 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

Does this put the point across nicely about cASRM6s VS isASRM6s?

Keep in mind the regular iSRM6 will be both heavier and have a larger spread than the c-aSRM6

Edited by Adamski, 26 March 2016 - 07:59 PM.

[RedDevil]

Adamski, on 26 March 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

Keep in mind the regular iSRM6 will be both heavier and have a larger spread than the c-aSRM6

I'm pretty sure the tonnage is listed right there on the picture.....

[MischiefSC]

RedDevil, on 26 March 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure the tonnage is listed right there on the picture.....

He's saying that a CSRM6 with Artemis is both lighter and has a tighter spread than a IS SRM6 without Artemis. That CSRMs are in all ways superior to build with and in performance in any functional way.

[Gyrok]

Adamski, on 26 March 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

Keep in mind the regular iSRM6 will be both heavier and have a larger spread than the c-aSRM6

Actually, no...they will not.

Artemis does nothing but offset the gap in spread.

MischiefSC, on 26 March 2016 - 08:11 PM, said:

He's saying that a CSRM6 with Artemis is both lighter and has a tighter spread than a IS SRM6 without Artemis. That CSRMs are in all ways superior to build with and in performance in any functional way.

Except that Artemis makes the spread equal...add Artemis to IS SRMs, and they are significantly tighter pattern once again.

[Adamski]

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

Actually, no...they will not.

Artemis does nothing but offset the gap in spread.



Except that Artemis makes the spread equal...add Artemis to IS SRMs, and they are significantly tighter pattern once again.

http://mwomercs.com/...38-01-dec-2015/
• IS SRM/6 spread reduced from 5.7 to 4.5m.
• Clan SRM/6 spread reduced from 5.9 to 5.0m.

Artemis reduces spread by 20%, which brings Clan ASRM6 to a spread of 4m which is less than 4.5m while still being lighter than iSRM6.

EDIT: Scratch that, according to here: http://mwo.gamepedia.../Artemis_IV_FCS Artemis reduces spread by 34%, not 20%

And here http://mwomercs.com/...rc-and-artemis/ suggests it reduces it by 25%

Gyrok, please inform yourself on actual game stats, instead of posting about the stats that exist only in your imagination.

Edited by Adamski, 26 March 2016 - 08:21 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

Actually, no...they will not.

Artemis does nothing but offset the gap in spread.



Except that Artemis makes the spread equal...add Artemis to IS SRMs, and they are significantly tighter pattern once again.

cSRM6 has a 5M Spread value, 34% reduction to 3.33M
isSRM6 has a 4M spread value, 34% reduction to 2.64M

You'll note 4>3.33, and 3>2.5

Adamski, on 26 March 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...38-01-dec-2015/
• IS SRM/6 spread reduced from 5.7 to 4.5m.
• Clan SRM/6 spread reduced from 5.9 to 5.0m.

Artemis reduces spread by 20%, which brings Clan ASRM6 to a spread of 4m which is less than 4.5m while still being lighter than iSRM6.

EDIT: Scratch that, according to here: http://mwo.gamepedia.../Artemis_IV_FCS Artemis reduces spread by 34%, not 20%

And here http://mwomercs.com/...rc-and-artemis/ suggests it reduces it by 25%

Gyrok, please inform yourself on actual game stats, instead of posting about the stats that exist only in your imagination.

Oh, you're right, my image is wrong. The isSRM6 has even more spread than the green circle listed.
I put it at 4M (my mistake, I always say it as a Diameter...and 9M VS 10M, I just used the 1M difference instead of 0.5M difference for Radii...oops)

Edited by Mcgral18, 26 March 2016 - 08:23 PM.

[Gyrok]

Adamski, on 26 March 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...38-01-dec-2015/
• IS SRM/6 spread reduced from 5.7 to 4.5m.
• Clan SRM/6 spread reduced from 5.9 to 5.0m.

Artemis reduces spread by 20%, which brings Clan ASRM6 to a spread of 4m which is less than 4.5m while still being lighter than iSRM6.

EDIT: Scratch that, according to here: http://mwo.gamepedia.../Artemis_IV_FCS Artemis reduces spread by 34%, not 20%

And here http://mwomercs.com/...rc-and-artemis/ suggests it reduces it by 25%

Gyrok, please inform yourself on actual game stats, instead of posting about the stats that exist only in your imagination.

Mcgral18, on 26 March 2016 - 08:23 PM, said:

cSRM6 has a 5M Spread value, 34% reduction to 3.33M
isSRM6 has a 4M spread value, 34% reduction to 2.64M

You'll note 4>3.33, and 3>2.5



Oh, you're right, my image is wrong. The isSRM6 has even more spread than the green circle listed.
I put it at 4M (my mistake, I always say it as a Diameter...and 9M VS 10M, I just used the 1M difference instead of 0.5M difference for Radii...oops)

Where is this 34% coming from?

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 08:24 PM, said:

Where is this 34% coming from?

Artemis reduction value

-<UpgradeType CType="Artemis" name="ArtemisType" id="3050">
<Loc iconTag="UpgradeIcons\upgradeIcon_Armetis.png" shortNameTag="@ui_Equipped" descTag="@ArtemisType_desc" nameTag="@ArtemisType"/>
<ArtemisTypeStats extraTons="1" extraSlots="1" missileSpread="0.66" trackingStrength="1.5"/>
</UpgradeType>

1-0.66
=0.34

Or, spread*0.66
=Artemis spread value

Edited by Mcgral18, 26 March 2016 - 08:28 PM.

[Wolfways]

Ace Selin, on 26 March 2016 - 07:34 AM, said:

This quote right here shows me this guy know nothing about the game or how to play Clan mechs. This is one of the most incorrect statements on these forums.

4xSRM6 4sml pulse Timber is not a brawler., LOL
6xSRM6 4sml pulse MadDog is not a brawler either apparently.

Please go play the game and then start talking about it because your comments are either trolling or clueless.

Maybe someone needs to have a chat with Russ then as that's how he see's MWO.
IS are brawlers - low heat generation.
Clan are more ranged - higher heat generation.

I'm not sure how that's supposed to work on tiny maps where pretty much every match is nothing but a brawl...

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

The MDD is a joke, nobody in tier 1 runs a MDD because it is obviously a terrible mech, SRM36 not withstanding...

The TW is a passable brawler, only because of the speed. You know what will likely be a more common site in brawl decks once it is league eligible? 9xSRM4 Archers...think the TW stands a chance in a brawl against that monster? If you do, think again.
Clans suck at brawling.

I think if the Archer is as flimsy as the Mad Dog (which I doubt as it's IS) then it won't be good for brawling...or anything really.

[Gyrok]

Wolfways, on 26 March 2016 - 08:37 PM, said:

Maybe someone needs to have a chat with Russ then as that's how he see's MWO.
IS are brawlers - low heat generation.
Clan are more ranged - higher heat generation.

I'm not sure how that's supposed to work on tiny maps where pretty much every match is nothing but a brawl...

That guy is a troll...

Quote

I think if the Archer is as flimsy as the Mad Dog (which I doubt as it's IS) then it won't be good for brawling...or anything really.

It has BK level structure quirks...not insignificant

Edited by Gyrok, 26 March 2016 - 08:43 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 06:21 PM, said:

They have to invest in the extra DHS, the heat cap was nerfed, remember?

Because I don't use weapons that do not require actual aiming skill I ignorant to such things, isn't the heat cap for both IS and Clans the same when it comes to SRM6's?

I thought it was, but again, admit to total ignorance on it...

>>IF<< true that they are the same, I fail to see your point. If not, I fail to see your point because damned if he CAN'T invest in that extra heat sink, and won't he have BETTER heat utilization with it vs. the IS opposite?

Anyway, I await your reply, please edumacate me, please!

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

Actually, no...they will not.

Artemis does nothing but offset the gap in spread.



Except that Artemis makes the spread equal...add Artemis to IS SRMs, and they are significantly tighter pattern once again.

Yes, at which point it's almost double the weight.

Hence the point. For the tonnage and 1 missile slot a Csrm6a is lighter and better spread and lighter than a still heavier IS srm6. SRM6A is comparable for a near 50% weight increase. Certainly not a 50% damage or accuracy return.

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 26 March 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

Because I don't use weapons that do not require actual aiming skill I ignorant to such things, isn't the heat cap for both IS and Clans the same when it comes to SRM6's?

I thought it was, but again, admit to total ignorance on it...

Clan DHS count for significantly less than IS DHS now...were you not aware?

SRMs require aiming skill...just FYI.

Quote

>>IF<< true that they are the same, I fail to see your point. If not, I fail to see your point because damned if he CAN'T invest in that extra heat sink, and won't he have BETTER heat utilization with it vs. the IS opposite?

Clan weapons are hotter naturally...and clan DHS are worth less now naturally...meaning clans must have more DHS to get equal heat cap.

Quote

Anyway, I await your reply, please edumacate me, please!

Class dismissed.

[MischiefSC]

Clans DHS have a slightly lower cap for a slightly faster dissipation. They're pretty close to identical. It's less than a medium laser heat cap difference with over 20 DHS, while the faster dissipation gets you a ML worth of heat back at 20 dhs faster .

[Wolfways]

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

That guy is a troll...

Me or Russ?

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 26 March 2016 - 08:56 PM, said:

Clans DHS have a slightly lower cap for a slightly faster dissipation. They're pretty close to identical. It's less than a medium laser heat cap difference with over 20 DHS, while the faster dissipation gets you a ML worth of heat back at 20 dhs faster .

Actually, IS DHS have equal dissipation, they just cannot typically mount as many DHS.

IS DHS is 1.5 heat cap + 0.15 dissipation

Clan DHS is 1.3 heat cap + 0.15 dissipation.

Wolfways, on 26 March 2016 - 08:58 PM, said:

Me or Russ?

If you have to ask...

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 26 March 2016 - 09:00 PM, said:

Actually, IS DHS have equal dissipation, they just cannot typically mount as many DHS.

IS DHS is 1.5 heat cap + 0.15 dissipation

Clan DHS is 1.3 heat cap + 0.15 dissipation.

I can't fault you on getting it wrong, but here's the stats:

-<Module faction="Clan,InnerSphere" CType="CHeatSinkStats" name="HeatSink_MkI" id="3000">
<ModuleStats health="10" tons="1" slots="1"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\HeatSink_MkI.dds" descTag="@HeatSink_MkI_desc" nameTag="@HeatSink_MkI"/>
<HeatSinkStats heatbase="-1.2" engineCooling="0.11" cooling="0.12"/>

-<EffectList>
<Effect name="SteamEffect" asset="mech_effects.heatsinks.steam_a"/>
</EffectList>
<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_Mech_HeatSink_Destroyed"/>
</Module>

-<Module faction="InnerSphere" CType="CHeatSinkStats" name="DoubleHeatSink_MkI" id="3001">
<ModuleStats health="10" tons="1" slots="3"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\DoubleHeatSink_MkI.dds" descTag="@DoubleHeatSink_MkI_desc" nameTag="@DoubleHeatSink_MkI"/>
<HeatSinkStats heatbase="-1.5" engineCooling="0.2" cooling="0.14"/>

-<EffectList>
<Effect name="SteamEffect" asset="mech_effects.heatsinks.steam_double_a"/>
</EffectList>
<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_Mech_HeatSink_Destroyed"/>
</Module>

-<Module faction="Clan" CType="CHeatSinkStats" name="ClanDoubleHeatSink" id="3004">
<ModuleStats health="10" tons="1" slots="2"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanDoubleHeatSink.dds" descTag="@CDoubleHeatSink_MkI_desc" nameTag="@CDoubleHeatSink_MkI"/>
<HeatSinkStats heatbase="-1.1" engineCooling="0.2" cooling="0.15"/>

-<EffectList>
<Effect name="SteamEffect" asset="mech_effects.heatsinks.steam_double_a"/>
</EffectList>
<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_Mech_HeatSink_Destroyed"/>
</Module>

You'll note 1.5 heat cap (VS 1.1) and 0.14 dissipation (VS 0.15)

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 26 March 2016 - 09:20 PM, said:

I can't fault you on getting it wrong, but here's the stats:

-<Module faction="Clan,InnerSphere" CType="CHeatSinkStats" name="HeatSink_MkI" id="3000">
<ModuleStats health="10" tons="1" slots="1"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\HeatSink_MkI.dds" descTag="@HeatSink_MkI_desc" nameTag="@HeatSink_MkI"/>
<HeatSinkStats heatbase="-1.2" engineCooling="0.11" cooling="0.12"/>
 
-<EffectList>
<Effect name="SteamEffect" asset="mech_effects.heatsinks.steam_a"/>
</EffectList>
<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_Mech_HeatSink_Destroyed"/>
</Module>
 
-<Module faction="InnerSphere" CType="CHeatSinkStats" name="DoubleHeatSink_MkI" id="3001">
<ModuleStats health="10" tons="1" slots="3"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\DoubleHeatSink_MkI.dds" descTag="@DoubleHeatSink_MkI_desc" nameTag="@DoubleHeatSink_MkI"/>
<HeatSinkStats heatbase="-1.5" engineCooling="0.2" cooling="0.14"/>
 
-<EffectList>
<Effect name="SteamEffect" asset="mech_effects.heatsinks.steam_double_a"/>
</EffectList>
<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_Mech_HeatSink_Destroyed"/>
</Module>
 
-<Module faction="Clan" CType="CHeatSinkStats" name="ClanDoubleHeatSink" id="3004">
<ModuleStats health="10" tons="1" slots="2"/>
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanDoubleHeatSink.dds" descTag="@CDoubleHeatSink_MkI_desc" nameTag="@CDoubleHeatSink_MkI"/>
<HeatSinkStats heatbase="-1.1" engineCooling="0.2" cooling="0.15"/>
 
-<EffectList>
<Effect name="SteamEffect" asset="mech_effects.heatsinks.steam_double_a"/>
</EffectList>
<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_Mech_HeatSink_Destroyed"/>
</Module>

You'll note 1.5 heat cap (VS 1.1) and 0.14 dissipation (VS 0.15)

1.1 vs 1.5?

-.-

That is worse than I thought...30% less?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

MischiefSC, on 26 March 2016 - 07:06 PM, said:

Put an Orion IIC with missiles next to a regular Orion without missiles.

Ok I got one



as close as I can get

looks pretty significant to me tho

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 26 March 2016 - 09:45 PM.