555 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Dimento, just to clarify, are your arguing that Clan mechs are OP?

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 29 March 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

LOL!

The TW is not even my favorite clan mech...you are grasping at straws.

Far from it, I'm reading your words as you've typed them.

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My point was that the TW is a T1 mech, but it is far from best in show...

And why does it have to be 'best in show'? WHY CAN'T an IS 'mech be top of Tier 1? There's PLENTY of IS heavies that sure as heck aren't Tier 1, heck aren't even Tier 2, why does the top of EVERY Tier need to be ruled by Clans?

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My personal favorite is the HBR...if you are curious...for clan mechs. Unremarkably, the WHM is my favorite IS mech...

Interesting to note.

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People were getting the (incorrect) impression that I am saying the TW is garbage. Which was not at all what I was saying. My point was the TW is a good mech, but there are better options to do just about anything the TW can do.

I don't get the fixation. Why you want to fixate on a Clan 'mech, BUT, only fixate on an IS weapon.

If you have problems how certain IS 'mechs perform, call for nerfs on the 'mech's quirks, NOT, on an entire weapon system. Nerf the weapon system and those 'mechs that were "ok" with that weapon system suddenly lose viability.

Gain some perspective on the issue, there's certainly a more reasonable approach than what you're calling for.

Gas Guzzler, on 29 March 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

Dimento, just to clarify, are your arguing that Clan mechs are OP?

In this case I am not. What I'm arguing is that an entire weapon system doesn't need to be nerfed to fix one or two outlier 'mechs.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

i think the problem with balance, and what gets gyrok and others. is that you look at IS mechs, every last one of them is quirked to the skies. some are more then others yes, and ya the timberwolf and crow are still top dogs.

but if you need that level of quirkage to "balance" the IS then it is probably a better solution to simply balance tech against tech first, if every single IS mech needs 25%+ acc/decel/turn and 50%-100%+ int structure + weapons quirks on the lot of them, even supposedly teir 1 IS mechs have quirk city, then i would say that the underlying tech itself is way out of line.

That's the problem i see, yes IS should get some quirks, but it should only be needed for things like sparse/bad hardpoints, lore, mech character things like that. not a single solution to all problems.

oversized and undersized mechs should be brought in line along with hit boxes. the disparity between good and bad mechs in terms of hitboxes is tremendous and just using quirks to balance everything.... i mean just look at any IS mech. a nub is gonna come into the game take one look at IS and clans and be like "#$#% that clan #$#% IS have quirks across the board and lots of them". and he wouldn't be wrong.

i think the Orion IIC and highlander IIC are perfect examples, not terrible hard points, but not great either. both of them are slightly oversized and very boxy, IE very easy targets to hit at any range. yet because they are clan battlemechs they supposedly are already so OP they don't need quirks, and forget their oversized hitboxes, they get clan tech, endo and ferro, clan XL they must be OP.

but anyone that thinks an Orion IIC can match a timber is a fool, and its exactly because of things like hit boxes and hardpoints that tells me that quirks are the wrong way to go, they have gone beyond band aids and are now whole sale solutions to balance.

fix the tech, IS LPL to clan LPL, IS XL to clan XL, unlock endo/ferro on under performing clan mechs so all clan weapons and quirks can be "normalized" properly. we already have a full service mech factory. you cannot CHANGE an IS mechs engine without a factory or a very well equipped shop. you cannot "swap" IS battlemechs weapons properly without a factory, field refits were usually subject to negative quirks. yet we can here. It could be done in TT with enough cbills its really no different here

Edited by Col Jaime Wolf, 29 March 2016 - 08:33 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I actually wouldn't mind if LPLs had their duration increased to somewhere around ML duration. Maybe like 0.85 seconds, but accompanied with a slight range buff (maybe 385m instead of 365 or something).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 March 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

I actually wouldn't mind if LPLs had their duration increased to somewhere around ML duration. Maybe like 0.85 seconds, but accompanied with a slight range buff (maybe 385m instead of 365 or something).

This, I wouldn't even mind if the cLPL range as nerfed a tad to give better parity, honestly all the IS wubs could use this sort of change.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 March 2016 - 08:27 AM.

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 29 March 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:

And the fact that you nitpick to death ONE f'ing stat on ONE f'ing weapon shows that you're of the completely unreasonable crowd, any time any IS stat matches or exceeds Clans, "the sky is falling" for you.

No, it is not one stat...

The iLPL has higher damage per tick, shorter duration, and higher damage/heat, and an additional laser can be fired without ghost heat.

This is not one stat on one weapon we are looking at dimento...this is every friggin' stat on the weapon.

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 29 March 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

Far from it, I'm reading your words as you've typed them.

Dimento, I never said the TW needed to be top of the tier...just that people need to stop saying it is top of tier 1.

FFS!

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And why does it have to be 'best in show'? WHY CAN'T an IS 'mech be top of Tier 1? There's PLENTY of IS heavies that sure as heck aren't Tier 1, heck aren't even Tier 2, why does the top of EVERY Tier need to be ruled by Clans?

It does not have to be, but it does not need to be treated like it is when it is not.

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Interesting to note.

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I don't get the fixation. Why you want to fixate on a Clan 'mech, BUT, only fixate on an IS weapon.

I am not fixating, I taking examples. Additionally, people always point to the TW and how it is 'god tier'. Except, if the top of the Clan heavies is not even the best mech in it's own weight class, how are clans across the board 'god tier'?

People in this very thread keep saying the TW is the best heavy mech. It clearly is not...multiple people who run comp have stated so multiple times...and I can see it myself.

Clans are not OP. Clans are not stronger than IS right now...

People need to learn to accept that if anyone has a crutch right now, it is the IS mechs.

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If you have problems how certain IS 'mechs perform, call for nerfs on the 'mech's quirks, NOT, on an entire weapon system. Nerf the weapon system and those 'mechs that were "ok" with that weapon system suddenly lose viability.

The issue is systemic honestly...tech needs to be better balanced 1 to 1. That cannot happen until the parity tech for IS comes into play, and who knows when PGI will decide to bring that around?

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Gain some perspective on the issue, there's certainly a more reasonable approach than what you're calling for.

In this case I am not. What I'm arguing is that an entire weapon system doesn't need to be nerfed to fix one or two outlier 'mechs.

I am looking at the system itself.

The difference in perspectives here is that you see overall balance as being close enough now...but I look at the system and see the flaws that will cause issues later.

Edited by Gyrok, 29 March 2016 - 08:37 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 29 March 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

No, it is not one stat...

The iLPL has higher damage per tick, shorter duration, and higher damage/heat, and an additional laser can be fired without ghost heat.

This is not one stat on one weapon we are looking at dimento...this is every friggin' stat on the weapon.

Every stat, except for range, damage per ton, and tonnage

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 March 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

I actually wouldn't mind if LPLs had their duration increased to somewhere around ML duration. Maybe like 0.85 seconds, but accompanied with a slight range buff (maybe 385m instead of 365 or something).

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 March 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

This, I wouldn't even mind if the cLPL range as nerfed a tad to give better parity, honestly all the IS wubs could use this sort of change.

Thank you for the small bit of sanity injected into this thread...

[MrMilkshake]

Whats the point of this thread ? No one is listening to you. Any of you. We have been moaning about this pish for how long now? why do you all still bother. Were all just along for the ride as russ gets drunk and changes stuff at the press of a button. Ballance will never be achevied before mwo nose dives into the ground and it looses so many players that they just close it down.
Face it, its run by clowns for clowns,
So just shut up and put your big rubber noses on.

[Monodominant]

Gyrok, on 29 March 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

Thank you for the small bit of sanity injected into this thread...

I would argue that the significant range difference (apart from weight for example) is a MAJOR plus difference for the clans.

Sure, noone is fighting out in an open map with no obstacles but when you can shoot at someone from 235+ meters (optimal) more then you have an advantage... given the 1200 max vs 700 max of the cLPL vs LPL that becomes even more important... essentially you can shoot them without them harming you... so we have a case of Some damage vs NO damage...

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 March 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

I actually wouldn't mind if LPLs had their duration increased to somewhere around ML duration. Maybe like 0.85 seconds, but accompanied with a slight range buff (maybe 385m instead of 365 or something).

At 0.85s I wouldn't use it over a LLAS weighing 2 tons less (higher damage per ton) and also significantly better base range.



I think people forget (probably due to quirks) that its base range is only 35m better than a 2 ton Clan Medium Pulse and actually worse than a 1 ton Clan ER Medium.

It has a short burn time for a good reason.


People will stuff 21 tons of LPLs on an IS medium mech for 33 damage and think its good, but a build with 8 tons of Clan Medium Pulse doing 32 damage is 'meh" - the primary separator here is quirks, if we used base values the clan version is unarguably superior due to an extra 13 tons free for DHS (T5 range mod + MK 1 TC = 376m range vs. IS with 10% Mod & 10% quirks for 438m).

The secondary issue is ghost heat limits. An IS mech can blow past what a Clan Medium Pulse build can do by loading up on MLAS - although its not actually realistic for a medium mech to have 3x IS LPLs and MLAS and enough DHS to cool it all.

Edited by Ultimax, 29 March 2016 - 09:35 AM.

[Astrocanis]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 29 March 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

i think the problem with balance, and what gets gyrok and others. is that you look at IS mechs, every last one of them is quirked to the skies. some are more then others yes, and ya the timberwolf and crow are still top dogs.

but if you need that level of quirkage to "balance" the IS then it is probably a better solution to simply balance tech against tech first, if every single IS mech needs 25%+ acc/decel/turn and 50%-100%+ int structure + weapons quirks on the lot of them, even supposedly teir 1 IS mechs have quirk city, then i would say that the underlying tech itself is way out of line.

That's the problem i see, yes IS should get some quirks, but it should only be needed for things like sparse/bad hardpoints, lore, mech character things like that. not a single solution to all problems.

oversized and undersized mechs should be brought in line along with hit boxes. the disparity between good and bad mechs in terms of hitboxes is tremendous and just using quirks to balance everything.... i mean just look at any IS mech. a nub is gonna come into the game take one look at IS and clans and be like "#$#% that clan #$#% IS have quirks across the board and lots of them". and he wouldn't be wrong.

i think the Orion IIC and highlander IIC are perfect examples, not terrible hard points, but not great either. both of them are slightly oversized and very boxy, IE very easy targets to hit at any range. yet because they are clan battlemechs they supposedly are already so OP they don't need quirks, and forget their oversized hitboxes, they get clan tech, endo and ferro, clan XL they must be OP.

but anyone that thinks an Orion IIC can match a timber is a fool, and its exactly because of things like hit boxes and hardpoints that tells me that quirks are the wrong way to go, they have gone beyond band aids and are now whole sale solutions to balance.

fix the tech, IS LPL to clan LPL, IS XL to clan XL, unlock endo/ferro on under performing clan mechs so all clan weapons and quirks can be "normalized" properly. we already have a full service mech factory. you cannot CHANGE an IS mechs engine without a factory or a very well equipped shop. you cannot "swap" IS battlemechs weapons properly without a factory, field refits were usually subject to negative quirks. yet we can here. It could be done in TT with enough cbills its really no different here

I am curious how you balance tech in this game. If you make IS = Clan from a tech perspective, that still does not address hardpoint, for example. If IS ML = C-ERML, but Clan can run 7 of them where IS can carry 4, how does that balance?

It's overly simplistic to assume that simply making the "tech" equal will make a difference. I am one of the "quirks do it better" silent crowd.

If a chassis is over-quirked, the solution is to adjust that. Not open the IS=Clan tech can of worms.

Just my opinion.

[Lugh]

Dimento Graven, on 29 March 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

Far from it, I'm reading your words as you've typed them.

And why does it have to be 'best in show'? WHY CAN'T an IS 'mech be top of Tier 1? There's PLENTY of IS heavies that sure as heck aren't Tier 1, heck aren't even Tier 2, why does the top of EVERY Tier need to be ruled by Clans?

Interesting to note.

I don't get the fixation. Why you want to fixate on a Clan 'mech, BUT, only fixate on an IS weapon.

If you have problems how certain IS 'mechs perform, call for nerfs on the 'mech's quirks, NOT, on an entire weapon system. Nerf the weapon system and those 'mechs that were "ok" with that weapon system suddenly lose viability.

Gain some perspective on the issue, there's certainly a more reasonable approach than what you're calling for.

In this case I am not. What I'm arguing is that an entire weapon system doesn't need to be nerfed to fix one or two outlier 'mechs.

Why not? They've done that repeatedly to the clans.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimax, on 29 March 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

People will stuff 21 tons of LPLs on an IS medium mech for 33 damage and think its good, but a build with 8 tons of Clan Medium Pulse doing 32 damage is 'meh" - the primary separator here is quirks

Quirks help, but at the same time, the difference in max range is often underestimated.

[Ultimax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 March 2016 - 09:35 AM, said:

Quirks help, but at the same time, the difference in max range is often underestimated.

I'm not underestimating it.

It does weight more than 3x as much. It should be unquestionably superior.

I'm OK with a bigger, more expensive thing being superior to a smaller more economical thing.


Once you are getting into optimal ranges, you're basically a few steps from negating that extra optimal range anyway, it should have something going for it - which it does, something I don't think needs to be taken away after years of this weapon being considered bad.

Edited by Ultimax, 29 March 2016 - 09:39 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimax, on 29 March 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

I'm not underestimating it.

It does weight more than 3x as much. It should be unquestionably superior.

I'd much rather the cMPL be nerfed in range if we are really worried about the cMPL vs iLPL so that the duration can be nerfed on the iLPL.

[kapusta11]

Interesting fact: pre buff LPL, back when it was 8 heat, had .6 sec duration.

Edited by kapusta11, 29 March 2016 - 09:57 AM.

[Lugh]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 March 2016 - 09:35 AM, said:

Quirks help, but at the same time, the difference in max range is often underestimated.

No. No it isn't. And there isn't a single map in this game that requires you to expose yourself to enemy fire before you are ready to fire at YOUR optimal range.

It's only through frustration that so many of you fail at closing gaps between you and your enemy.

PS, even at max optimal range your IS pulse lasers are able to exchange at reduced levels of effect.

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 March 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

I'd much rather the cMPL be nerfed in range if we are really worried about the cMPL vs iLPL so that the duration can be nerfed on the iLPL.

I would not be for a CMPL range nerf, but if that had to happen... the range cannot go below 300m either way (I'm thinking 310-315m or so).

kapusta11, on 29 March 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

Interesting fact: pre buff LPL, back when it was 8 heat, it had .6 sec duration.

It did, but when that change happened, the LPL was still bad.. mostly in the heat department (remember "aggressive balance towards launch"? - hahahahaahah lol no).

One of the things our balance overlord did at the time was decide that pulse lasers for some reason COULD NOT BE AT HEAT PARITY with their non-pulse equivalents DESPITE tonnage consumption (less DHS to be added as a consequence). Over time (after 2+ years of this stupidity), this was eventually "corrected" after the fail that was CERLL 2.0s (in which our balance overlord was temporarily banished - there were other buffs in between mind you).

Prior to the LPL .6s duration change, it was said that pulse lasers in general didn't have any consequence... mostly because it wasn't "enough of a change" (it was like .8 second duration for LPL IIRC) and the only appealing pulse laser at the time was the IS Medium Pulse (it was much more range deficient then - for pulse lasers in general, but the pulses were "short enough" to justify their usage on occasion).

So, if there is a duration change, we can't totally go back to the old days as the duration difference from the non-pulse counterparts were that trivial. If we're going to nerf duration on the LPL, I would probably tweak that a bit to ~.75 seconds or so and go from there.


The sheer irony though is that CSML has a quite of a bit of duration (same as a LL of 1.0s - ISML has a .9s duration) and people flock to CSPL simply because of duration (willing to pay the .5 ton increase per laser for this).. it would be nice if that sucked less.

Edited by Deathlike, 29 March 2016 - 10:08 AM.