80 replies to this topic

[VorpalAnvil]

Cathy, on 02 April 2016 - 02:03 AM, said:

Units complaining about pugs and not following orders, CW is the end game, your ruining our fun, join a unit if you want to play it, or get out !

Seen these comments, and ones like it time and time, again, and so not really that surprising that coupled with how hard it is to be a singleton, a challenge I happened to like, far to many others didn't share that view and wouldn't play it.

Time and time again I said solo people were needed, be careful what you wish for, you might not like it, and I was basically told I was an idiot and I didn't have a clue.

Now P.G.I have done something about it, and the first comments I saw were complaints, some of them from people that complained about solo players before now saying how are we going to recruit.

This might make the solo player base grow in size, going to make drop times longer for teams now, just like I said it was.

Its rare I feel smug and I really shouldn't as I think this is going to hurt group play in Faction Wars.

But I have some I told you so to hand out, there is plenty for many of you to share.

Unitless players were not originally going to be allowed into CW at all until they beg whined and screamed bloody murder about being excluded. And of course once they were let in, they did the same about facing units. Once again, PGI is bending over backwards to serve the lowest common denominator. At least get your facts straight before you go off on your anti-unit Jihad.

[SplashDown]

AWESOME PGI..nice to see that solo players who have no desire to be in or fight against organised units can finaly have some fun in CW...im sue it may need some tweeking after a couple weeks of testing but all the same i say kuados to PGI

[Johnny Z]

VorpalAnvil, on 02 April 2016 - 05:46 AM, said:

Unitless players were not originally going to be allowed into CW at all until they beg whined and screamed bloody murder about being excluded. And of course once they were let in, they did the same about facing units. Once again, PGI is bending over backwards to serve the lowest common denominator. At least get your facts straight before you go off on your anti-unit Jihad.

Think faction play will work units only? Fact is that since indi players can make their own units it might. The bonus to letting freelancers into faction play is that they can play for any faction at any time completeing the teams for matches. So its simply better if freelancers are part of it.

Tell me your not interested in faction play being worse off simply to exclude player not in your unit.

By the way I will match 12 experienced independent well equipped legit players against an experience well equipped, legit 12 man any day and wipe the floor with them every time. In response to your comments. It wouldn't even be a fair fight, its just the way things works.

Edited by Johnny Z, 02 April 2016 - 07:20 AM.

[Aresye]

Johnny Z, on 02 April 2016 - 07:06 AM, said:

Think faction play will work units only? Fact is that since indi players can make their own units it might. The bonus to letting freelancers into faction play is that they can play for any faction at any time completeing the teams for matches. So its simply better if freelancers are part of it.

Tell me your not interested in faction play being worse off simply to exclude player not in your unit.

I know for a fact that FW would work for units only because the first 2 months of FW (minus the occasional light mech gen rush) was fantastic. Nearly every game was premade vs. premade, units set up alliances between factions, etc.

Eventually, once units realized there was no purpose; no end-game for them playing FW, they left.

For units to succeed in FW, there needs to be an incentive for them to play.

Contrary to popular belief here on the forums (and in this thread), the majority of units don't like pug-stomping teams of randos. If they did, you'd see nothing but units in FW, and that's definitely not the case.

[LordNothing]

ive dropped with incompetent units and ms stomping pugs before, so i kind of think whether or not someone is a pug is independant of their skill in cw.

however pugs dont play cw the same way units do. you get more heroics, more cannon fodder. a good pug will exploit bad pugs to get more kills or even to complete objectives. in unit play its more regimented. theres a caller and people listen. people coordinate and communicate and depend less on their skills as a mech pilot and more on their teamwork skills. good teamwork trumps good piloting any day, but good piloting can still trump bad teamwork.

so whats this mean for gameplay? its going to be more static. pugs are going to play the pug way. units are going to play the unit way. there will still be stomps since there is no skill matching in either queue.

Edited by LordNothing, 02 April 2016 - 07:33 AM.

[VorpalAnvil]

Johnny Z, on 02 April 2016 - 07:06 AM, said:

Think faction play will work units only? Fact is that since indi players can make their own units it might. The bonus to letting freelancers into faction play is that they can play for any faction at any time completeing the teams for matches. So its simply better if freelancers are part of it.

Tell me your not interested in faction play being worse off simply to exclude player not in your unit.

When CW began, there was no shortage of unit vs. unit action. It was routine to run into comp units like SJR, EMP, LORD, etc. Units began fleeing CW when they became aware of the various problems, and the lack of any progress on them ( which continues still today ) from PGI. In those early days, solos were not required to fill out rosters and while units vs. pugs happened, it was hardly the norm that it is today. Had PGI designed a more robust, interesting and fleshed out CW we would not be dealing with the low population problem in this game mode in the first place. Instead of owning up to these shortfalls and addressing these problems, PGI has chosen to blame units for playing the game that they made, and has taken to instituting a series of ineffectual quick fix band aid "solutions" (moving the drop zones, insane buffs to dropships, etc.). Solos and small groups already have 2 other modes they can play, and CW was billed and sold as the stomping ground for units and teamwork. But everything PGI has done in the past several months with regards to CW has been to scapegoat teams and cater to the sort of players that in general have absolutely zero interest in teamwork or coordination in what is a focused team based mode in a team based game. In short, PGI is doing what they always do; promising big, delivering small, blaming the community for their failure and shifting the focus to keep their incompetence out of the spotlight while pandering to the gullible and short sighted in the player base who want their way and want it now, long term implications be damned as log as those they see as having wronged them are punished.

Johnny Z, on 02 April 2016 - 07:06 AM, said:

By the way I will match 12 experienced independent well equipped legit players against an experience well equipped, legit 12 man any day and wipe the floor with them every time. In response to your comments. It wouldn't even be a fair fight, its just the way things works.

Nobody is afraid of your lurm brigade...

[meteorol]

It will fail. Pretty horribly if you ask me.

Right now, CW doesn't have the playerbase to split "anything". The numbers are simply not there. More often than not you can see around 100 players doing CW in EU prime.
This "could" change with CW Beta 3, depending on what PGI delivers there. Without a massively increased playercount, splitting queues is pretty much doomed to fail.

Even if it works with the numbers of players, it will probably change nothing regarding unbalanced matches and brutal stomps in CW. I mean, i'm pretty much playing CW almost exclusively these days. The number of players with a unit tag who are unable to hit an atlas from 30m distance is flipping outstanding. A very few units excluded, a unit tag is not even an indicator for the guy being able to deal above 300 dmg in 30 minutes.

The terribadness is rampant in CW, and and unit players are by no means a lot better than non unit players on average. I see some non unit players scoring like 4 times more damage than unit players pretty much every day.

[Cy Mitchell]

Appogee, on 02 April 2016 - 01:34 AM, said:

In the Group Queue

All units will wait longer for matches, because it will take ages for the matchmaker to be able to mix and match units against each other.

Smaller units who cannot mount 12-mans will be the losers in most battles.

In the Solo Queue

If unit members are allowed to remain in a unit while also dropping in CW solo, then unit members will use LFG to sync drop and continue to farm PUGs.

If unit members aren't permitted to drop solo in CW, many will leave their units so they can farm PUGs in CW then rejoin after the CW matches.

Overall

PGI will see that it's not working within about a month, but not get around to reverting the changes for another 6 months.

If a person has a unit tag then he has to drop in the unit que.

There was also something about having to pay higher recruitment fees that will scale up with larger units so it might not be feasible for players to drop units tags easily to farm PUGS if their unit must then pay a high fee to bring them back on board.

[Zordicron]

haha. This is interesting news.

I am in a unit with 2 others, my brother and his pal, both of them haven't logged in in 6 months (I admit my log in rate has diminished a lot in the last 3) so essentially I am a solo unit.

I haven't had any issue in CW as a solo, not on TS, just following the battle flow like years worth of pilot seat time allows. I have averaged 6-10 Kill most dmg dealt, 3-4 solo kills, and 1400+ dmg in my CW matches a a pug fill in. 500 dmg/mech give or take depending on how the match plays out isn;t really rocket science if you have honed your field awareness and positioning.

That said, I left the FRR for the exact reasons Cathy has been talking about. A group of some of the most tryhardiest tryhards I have encountered with elitist unit ramblings and general condescension towards me made it an easy choice.

Now, obviously I am not naming names, nor am I saying this is actually commonplace for units. In fact I would say most units are pleasant, and just looking for some fun.

The squeaky wheel gets the kick, as Minsc used to say. Keep yelling at the scrubs, and soon they will get their act together!! Or you know, they will just not endure such toxicity and look to the administrators of their leisure activity for a solution.

Granted.


You reap what you sew. There is some blame to pass on to the whiny pug players that couldn't grasp reality. But PGI has said before and through their own actions created the idea CW is for group play and end game type content. If they are changing it now, most of the cause falls on the players it was designed for here guys. PGI is taking matters into their own hands now after significant time of letting units basically self police their "recruitment" as I scarcastically call it because the current form of CW was flopping hard.


I like the change. Depending on how it is put in, I could either stay in my small unit and continue as I have, or drop it and essentially be the wolf in the flock of sheep with no PSR matchmaking CW matches.

[Jman5]

Zoid, on 02 April 2016 - 05:19 AM, said:

The MM really should try to put premades against premades and PUGs vs PUGs if possible.

The problem with doing this in CW is that even a well contested planet might just have one large premades on the other side. So under your system, if you were in a premade yourself it would keep putting you against them. Sometimes in group queue you'll experience this where you keep matching against some high skilled premade on practice night in their competitive mechs. It gets demoralizing pretty quickly and it's difficult to keep the group together after a little while.

In order to keep low to mid level groups re-queuing they need their fair share of softballs thrown their way. Winnable matches that build up their ego after having it torn down the match before.

This is what concerns me most about the splitting of the queue. I worry that some of these casual units will no longer have the means to win matches and they will simply give up on Community Warfare entirely. Then once those guys leave, the people slightly better then them will lose their softball matchups and leave. And so on until all you have are the top tier teams who can now no longer find matches and so they leave.

[L3mming2]

Jman5, on 02 April 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

The problem with doing this in CW is that even a well contested planet might just have one large premades on the other side. So under your system, if you were in a premade yourself it would keep putting you against them. Sometimes in group queue you'll experience this where you keep matching against some high skilled premade on practice night in their competitive mechs. It gets demoralizing pretty quickly and it's difficult to keep the group together after a little while.

In order to keep low to mid level groups re-queuing they need their fair share of softballs thrown their way. Winnable matches that build up their ego after having it torn down the match before.

This is what concerns me most about the splitting of the queue. I worry that some of these casual units will no longer have the means to win matches and they will simply give up on Community Warfare entirely. Then once those guys leave, the people slightly better then them will lose their softball matchups and leave. And so on until all you have are the top tier teams who can now no longer find matches and so they leave.

this sounds like proffetical words to me...

[Sjorpha]

Jman5, on 02 April 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

The problem with doing this in CW is that even a well contested planet might just have one large premades on the other side. So under your system, if you were in a premade yourself it would keep putting you against them. Sometimes in group queue you'll experience this where you keep matching against some high skilled premade on practice night in their competitive mechs. It gets demoralizing pretty quickly and it's difficult to keep the group together after a little while.

In order to keep low to mid level groups re-queuing they need their fair share of softballs thrown their way. Winnable matches that build up their ego after having it torn down the match before.

This is what concerns me most about the splitting of the queue. I worry that some of these casual units will no longer have the means to win matches and they will simply give up on Community Warfare entirely. Then once those guys leave, the people slightly better then them will lose their softball matchups and leave. And so on until all you have are the top tier teams who can now no longer find matches and so they leave.

This is my main concern as well.

[Jon Gotham]

Jman5, on 02 April 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

The problem with doing this in CW is that even a well contested planet might just have one large premades on the other side. So under your system, if you were in a premade yourself it would keep putting you against them. Sometimes in group queue you'll experience this where you keep matching against some high skilled premade on practice night in their competitive mechs. It gets demoralizing pretty quickly and it's difficult to keep the group together after a little while.

In order to keep low to mid level groups re-queuing they need their fair share of softballs thrown their way. Winnable matches that build up their ego after having it torn down the match before.

This is what concerns me most about the splitting of the queue. I worry that some of these casual units will no longer have the means to win matches and they will simply give up on Community Warfare entirely. Then once those guys leave, the people slightly better then them will lose their softball matchups and leave. And so on until all you have are the top tier teams who can now no longer find matches and so they leave.

But as long as the special snowflake solos are catered to, it doesn't matter! After all they are the "important ones."


/bitternessoff.

[Davegt27]

The Atlas Overlord, on 01 April 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

How's that going to work?

Is just being in a unit, even if it's just one person enough to make you "unit Q"?

Or is this a april fools thing?

First there are a few things
1) Players without unit tags
2) Players with unit tags
3) Groups or players that group up and drop together


Basically how it will work is
If you have a unit tag next to your name in game you will only play other players with unit tags.

That means you can be in group or not you will only drop with other players that have unit tags


Players without unit tags will drop together also these players will not be able to group up (I think) correct me if I am wrong

Now to prevent people from gaming the system units will have to pay C-bills to have players in their unit

They justify this by saying units will receive MC

now what’s not clear is if unit will have a one time fee for their players in their unit or will it be an ongoing fee (per month, day or whatever) Russ seem to indicate that there will an on going c-bill cost to units
because Russ mentioned players in your unit that are not actively playing can cost you c-bills


Anyway NGNG and Russ really dropped the ball helping the community on CW/FW phase 3
Pretty sad IMHO


edit: I had to go back to last Oct 28 townhall but I was wrong it does look like nonunit tag people will be able
to group up and drop together

Edited by Davegt27, 03 April 2016 - 12:27 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Jon Gotham, on 02 April 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

But as long as the special snowflake solos are catered to, it doesn't matter! After all they are the "important ones."


/bitternessoff.

This is completely backwards. A lot of content and effort has been put into making the larger groups work. ALOT. All the solo players have been given is the solo queue which is way easier to run and create then the group queue.

Alot the high end content on the faction map is for Units only. Some of the remaining content is for all players.

I think its the large group players like this response above that gives no credit to all the extra content and attention they are given above solo players and still come on the forums like man babies crying for more. That other players have a chance to participate at all is reason enough for crying it seems.

Point made but I will add the last time numbers were given solo players made up 84% of all players. That the remaining 16% of players in groups are getting all this extra content and still crying and be insulting to solo players is par for the course and reinforces negatives about some large group aspects.

I'm sorry if this upsets any of the large group special snowflakes, because by definition that's exactly what you are.

Thanks PGI is in order instead of disrespecting their efforts.

Edited by Johnny Z, 02 April 2016 - 12:24 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Aresye, on 02 April 2016 - 07:26 AM, said:

I know for a fact that FW would work for units only because the first 2 months of FW (minus the occasional light mech gen rush) was fantastic. Nearly every game was premade vs. premade, units set up alliances between factions, etc.

Eventually, once units realized there was no purpose; no end-game for them playing FW, they left.

For units to succeed in FW, there needs to be an incentive for them to play.

Contrary to popular belief here on the forums (and in this thread), the majority of units don't like pug-stomping teams of randos. If they did, you'd see nothing but units in FW, and that's definitely not the case.

Exactly this. What CW needs is NOT to attract more solo players - it needs to give units more reason to play. Like it did originally. When units were almost all that filled matches.

I'm game with the queue split for reasons I've already given. Good benefits for units in the unit queue however would make a big difference. A sense of purpose and end game. Significant faction rewards for faction loyalists. A reason to want to fight for your faction to win.

Do that and CW will fill with units. Splitting the queue allows for dumbing down CW for the solo players while allowing more depth for units.

[C E Dwyer]

SplashDown, on 02 April 2016 - 06:57 AM, said:

AWESOME PGI..nice to see that solo players who have no desire to be in or fight against organised units can finaly have some fun in CW...im sue it may need some tweeking after a couple weeks of testing but all the same i say kuados to PGI

Despite the accusations being levelled at me about going on Jihad against units, they are wrong and I believe your optimism is baseless.

Splitting the player base is a terrible idea, which I said when it was first brought up, just as I said it was a bad idea to cap unit numbers and isn't going to make CW any better for either queue, you might see some improvement in solo numbers but not enough, quick enough, you will see a decline in grouped numbers, for reasons given by Jman5.

People might want to join a unit in the false hopes of getting at the MC, but depending on how PGI implement fee's the unit might not want you, and might even have to cast adrift people that don't play often, or don't play cw.

This will lead to more problems as split units etc etc, but only one is going to win and get event rewards and the 'glory'

As Davegt27 has said PGI dropped the ball for both sets of people, but the blame really comes down to the hard liners on both side of the solo unit sides of the argument, neither wanted compromise.

[Davegt27]

Cathy, on 02 April 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

Despite the accusations being levelled at me about going on Jihad against units, they are wrong and I believe your optimism is baseless.

Splitting the player base is a terrible idea, which I said when it was first brought up, just as I said it was a bad idea to cap unit numbers and isn't going to make CW any better for either queue, you might see some improvement in solo numbers but not enough, quick enough, you will see a decline in grouped numbers, for reasons given by Jman5.

People might want to join a unit in the false hopes of getting at the MC, but depending on how PGI implement fee's the unit might not want you, and might even have to cast adrift people that don't play often, or don't play cw.

This will lead to more problems as split units etc etc, but only one is going to win and get event rewards and the 'glory'

As Davegt27 has said PGI dropped the ball for both sets of people, but the blame really comes down to the hard liners on both side of the solo unit sides of the argument, neither wanted compromise.

When I say drop the ball I meant they said they were going to talk about CW/FW then they hardly talk about the mode

Geez getting info is like pulling teeth
I am starting a series of threads so maybe we players can answer some of the CW/FW questions

[Jon Gotham]

I'm sorry I upset you Johnny...but I'm fed up of the attitude and behaviour behind the Q split(s) that have happened. It's getting really old and really irritating as it's happened in most online games I have played.
always the same poor attitude:
"I don't want to even though i accepted it as I entered."
"I agreed to this, now I want something else and YOU are going to give it to me. Oh screw the others as well, they mean less than I do."
"There are more of us, and we are more special than you are."

Same old same old, and you know what? so far it has had a 100% failure rate in every game that has ttried it that I personally have played.
I'm TIRED of the dishonest, logic dodging of it, and that poor attitude is spoiling every game I like.

Edited by Jon Gotham, 02 April 2016 - 04:50 PM.

[Novakaine]

I wish I could make this skull bigger.