1049 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

Wait, and the Cheetah isn't?
Or how about the Black Knight?

Keeping in mind both are top tier.

Cheetah has enough hardpoints to be a work horse, that lights only mount lasers is a product of laser vomit and lack of weapon options for lights (light PPCs and light ACs and ATMs for example), not a result of the mech itself. Hell the mech could lrm boat if you tried hard enough but lrms are ****.

The Black Knight is an energy boat, but again, mounting all lasers is a product of laser vomit meta, It would handle PPCs, light PPCs, flamers, and other energy weapons just as well.

So no, neither of those mechs are actually one trick ponies, they're both flexible enough in their own right that they could do other things if you wanted them to, problem is laser vomit = nobody wants them to.

[CK16]

I still don't get why people expect a 40 tonner to pull off the same firepower of a 55 tonner. Viper is a welcome addition to the Clans imo it will do well in packs with Arctic Cheetah's and/or Shadowcat these packs being hit and run. The Viper has the speed we needed in a 40 tonner. I wouldnt have liked a slower but more guns it would suffer as the Adder does now. It's ok but it is a support mech, a firing platform that isn't very tanky.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

Cheetah has enough hardpoints to be a work horse, that lights only mount lasers is a product of laser vomit and lack of weapon options for lights (light PPCs and light ACs and ATMs for example), not a result of the mech itself.

No, it is a product of being a light with terrible hardpoints for anything else. ProtoACs and ATMs will not change the fact the Cheetah will always be best suited to lasers (Clans don't get light PPCs either). It has 8 tons, if it had 4 missile decently placed missile hardpoints it might be a different story, but it doesn't which means it is stuck with small/medium lasers.

pbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

The Black Knight is an energy boat, but again, mounting all lasers is a product of laser vomit meta, It would handle PPCs, light PPCs, flamers, and other energy weapons just as well.

This is true (except the flamer bit), but regardless it is stuck with pretty much two different flavors, PPCs, or Lasers, wouldn't really call that really diverse :-/

Maybe Plasma Rifles but those will most likely be just a ammo-based PPC that also adds a bit of heat to targets.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 April 2016 - 12:22 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with "one trick ponies" that fill a needed role. Heck, most weapon systems are, in fact, one trick ponies and do one thing exceedingly well. Most versatile weapon systems or vehicles tend to be compromised and do not excel at anything.

Why do we need a chassis that is good at everything when we have so many choices of one trick ponies that will likely be better than it at a particular role? Would it be nice to have the do everything great Mech? Well, yes and no. Yes, you only need to buy and use that Mech. Ummm No, there is no reason to ever pilot another Mech.

I wonder why PGI would not want to make the all powerful, do everything, Mech?

[pbiggz]

Rampage, on 04 April 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with "one trick ponies" that fill a needed role. Heck, most weapon systems are, in fact, one trick ponies and do one thing exceedingly well. Most versatile weapon systems or vehicles tend to be compromised and do not excel at anything.

Why do we need a chassis that is good at everything when we have so many choices of one trick ponies that will likely be better than it at a particular role? Would it be nice to have the do everything great Mech? Well, yes and no. Yes, you only need to buy and use that Mech. Ummm No, there is no reason to ever pilot another Mech.

I wonder why PGI would not want to make the all powerful, do everything, Mech?

There's something wrong with one trick ponies in a game that sells the mechlab where you customize mechs FOR MULTIPLE ROLES as an integral part of the game. If the game had no mech lab the viper might be a welcome addition in my opinion, but if you sell a mech that barely interfaces with a significant segment of the game thats a mistake.

This is compounded by the fact that the Inner Sphere has numerous multitaskers, while the clans have numerous mechs that are meant to do tasks that MWO relegates mostly to uselessness.

Edited by pbiggz, 04 April 2016 - 12:36 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:

This is compounded by the fact that the Inner Sphere has numerous multitaskers

Name some good ones for me, because all that comes to mind at first is a bunch of one trick ponies. Keeping in mind quirks will always pigeon-hole a mech into a specific build.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 April 2016 - 12:36 PM.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

Name some good ones for me, because all that comes to mind at first is a bunch of one trick ponies. Keeping in mind quirks will always pigeon-hole a mech into a specific build.

Quirks are really the biggest thing pigeonholing mechs for the IS...honestly...

Even then, it is what it is I suppose, there was a time where the BLR-1S could be a nice SRM brawler, or LRM carrier...now it does neither well because quirks.

Whatever...

[pbiggz]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

Name some good ones for me, because all that comes to mind at first is a bunch of one trick ponies. Keeping in mind quirks will always pigeon-hole a mech into a specific build.

Marauders have a reasonable spread of hardpoints across all variants. Mostly energy and ballistic but with enough tonnage to run anything really you wanted.

Stalkers see both energy, short range and long range missile builds.

Thunderbolts HAVE ballistic hardpoints, they're just rarely used because laser vomit meta.

Shadow Hawks run all sorts of energy/ballistic/missile builds.

Those are just what come to mind right now.

Even warhammers see mixed ballistic/energy and missile builds. Iv seen people running UACs on them almost as often as PPCs, but the standard meta orthodox is to strap lasers on that puppy too, even though it has massive PPC velocity quirks.

See where Im going with this? Not all these builds are meta, but they're buildable and some of them are at least reasonable. That laser vomit meta and quirks pigeon hole mechs into single roles is something that should inspire just as much frustration with PGI as releasing mechs that you basically can't customize.

One trick ponies have no place in a game where almost half the game is customizing those mechs. You rob players of a significant portion of gameplay. What is so hard to understand about that?

[CK16]

Well imo quirks should help only weapons on the stock builds and very clear on this as in like Say Timberwolf prime should be like ER Large laser rage and LRM-20 cool down, not genergy missile, or energy, not even general like LRM or SRM...this would hopefully make building the same builds over and over and over again obsolete really fast.

Imo I am on team remove all quirks from the game and fix all weapons to be useful with out quirks....Sick of people bitching about this new mech does not have OP quirks as the rest so why get it or complain cause the bought it now it "sucks" cause other mechs with thier power creep of quirks negate all others viable.

Edited by CK16, 04 April 2016 - 12:53 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Stalkers see both energy, short range and long range missile builds.

It has builds, but only two really matter, and both are on the STK-4N. Let's not even bring LRMs into consideration, so that leaves mostly lasers and srms, doesn't sound that diverse to me. Sure it could do PPCs, but there are better options.

pbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Thunderbolts HAVE ballistic hardpoints, they're just rarely used because laser vomit meta.

Or because that's really their only advantage over the Jager, because low mount ballistics aren't good, just ask the Battlemasters how often they reliably use ballistics.

pbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Shadow Hawks run all sorts of energy/ballistic/missile builds.

2D2 runs pretty much one build (AC10 and SRMs). The 2K runs 3 lasers, end of list.

pbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Even warhammers see mixed ballistic/energy and missile builds. Iv seen people running UACs on them almost as often as PPCs, but the standard meta orthodox is to strap lasers on that puppy too, even though it has massive PPC velocity quirks.

6R is the one to run PPCs on, doing lasers on it is worthless because the 6D does it better. The Warhammers are somewhat flexible as a chassis, but not individually, the Black Widow relies on ballistics, 6R on PPCs, 6D on lasers, and the 7S doesn't matter.

pbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

See where Im going with this? Not all these builds are meta, but they're buildable and some of them are at least reasonable.

I question what you think is reasonable.

pbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

That laser vomit meta and quirks pigeon hole mechs into single roles is something that should inspire just as much frustration with PGI as releasing mechs that you basically can't customize.

One trick ponies have no place in a game where almost half the game is customizing those mechs. You rob players of a significant portion of gameplay. What is so hard to understand about that?

Actually not, having this many mechs without having them be eclipsed by others IS to pigeon hole mechs. Sorry but customization can in fact be the bane of diversity with regards to the meta, so pigeon holing (or more appropriately termed specialized mechs) is necessary.

Now that said, the omnimech construction rules do harm customization too much, but it wouldn't really change much in what the Viper could do, only make it better at it and probably compete directly with the Jenner IIC without quirks.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 April 2016 - 12:59 PM.

[LastKhan]

There should be a "one trick pony" mech pack just cause i like to spite people. Again i think the Viper would make and excellent hit and run skirmisher regardless of someones stemmed saltiness.

[Cy Mitchell]

Seeing as how we seemed to be focused on the Viper as the example of a one trick pony lets see what it can be used for.

Scout
Jump sniper
Ranged sniper
High terrain sniper
Harrasser
Light Hunter
Medium Hunter
Assault Killer

Fast capper
Wall Jumper

It can carry lasers, pulse laser, SRMs, LRMs, PPC, MG, CAP, AMS

It can run almost as fast as anything currently in the game but should be more durable than most of the fast Lights.

Sorry, I guess I am just one of those "stupid" people that you go on about because the Viper looks pretty interesting to me.

Edited by Rampage, 04 April 2016 - 01:10 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

pbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Marauders have a reasonable spread of hardpoints across all variants. Mostly energy and ballistic but with enough tonnage to run anything really you wanted.

Stalkers see both energy, short range and long range missile builds.

Thunderbolts HAVE ballistic hardpoints, they're just rarely used because laser vomit meta.

Shadow Hawks run all sorts of energy/ballistic/missile builds.

Those are just what come to mind right now.

Even warhammers see mixed ballistic/energy and missile builds. Iv seen people running UACs on them almost as often as PPCs, but the standard meta orthodox is to strap lasers on that puppy too, even though it has massive PPC velocity quirks.

See where Im going with this? Not all these builds are meta, but they're buildable and some of them are at least reasonable. That laser vomit meta and quirks pigeon hole mechs into single roles is something that should inspire just as much frustration with PGI as releasing mechs that you basically can't customize.

One trick ponies have no place in a game where almost half the game is customizing those mechs. You rob players of a significant portion of gameplay. What is so hard to understand about that?

I have a better idea. What 40 tonners aren't 1 trick ponies?

Phantom? Lasers
Pouncer? 2 ER PPCs? I mean nothing is really going to viable. I'll laugh at the guys trying to boat ER SLs on a 105 kph 40 tonner..
Coyotl? 2 cLPLs

Battle Cobra? Tonnage for lasers only, and STD engine 40 tonner lololol


I think you are expecting WAY too much out of 40 tonners.

Cicadas also do lasers only (i'm not talking about the occasional single AC5 build), big surprise

[Lazor Sharp]

I am a big fan of the MechTek Black Lanner. Fast with 360 torso twist..... Very Fond Memory's of 2v2 and 3v3 brawling with them, with my unit members, for the Luz........

[Gyrok]

Lazor Sharp, on 04 April 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

I am a big fan of the MechTek Black Lanner. Fast with 360 torso twist..... Very Fond Memory's of 2v2 and 3v3 brawling with them, with my unit members, for the Luz........

There will be no 360 twist for it in MWO.

The lanner will be crap in MWO because they will actually be somewhat close to TT, instead of MW4's fairy tale world where omnimechs can increase/decrease engine speed.

[Lazor Sharp]

if no 360 torso twist on the Black Lanner in NWO, than they don't even need to bother, as that was the only reason to run it, vs just about anything else...........

[ScarecrowES]

I really don't see why anyone would think the Viper won't find a place in most players' inventories. If you look at what mechs already exist in-game that parallel what the Viper will bring to the table, they're all largely successful and useful mechs.

I've never really understood the base hate for mechs with large engines. I do get that most representations of that paradigm in MWO don't fair well, especially on the Clan side, because they're also usually starved for hardpoints to use their relatively lower free tonnage. But the thing I see that's great about mechs like the Viper, Black Lanner, Linebacker, etc is that they have the hardpoints to use their tonnage.

I look at the state of pugs (especially) these days, and matches can be fundementally dominated from the seat of speedy mechs boasting little real firepower. I tend to see a mech that can run and gun like a much smaller mech, but take much harder hits more consistently and come out safe, and think it might have a place in my inventory. On the other hand, I tend to see a mech that's got tons of guns but is a sitting duck the moment you step around a corner, and I see a mech I'd rather just leave in the mech bay. The way the game plays right now, it pays to be able to move.

[Bishop Steiner]

pbiggz, on 04 April 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

David White hellhound is best hellhound.

It's not like there's a lot of competition for that title.... the TRO versions are quite simply, bad. It's just funny that the David White/MW4 design essentially a brand new mech.

And for MWO purposes they shoudl be treated as such. Give us an updated "Wolverine IIC" Conjurer and a Hellhound.

Metus regem, on 04 April 2016 - 11:45 AM, said:

And that's what irritates me about the Dragonfly, it is going to be a mech that will get a bunch of QQ'ing about lack of pod space, be used just long enough to master, then be in the same dark and dusty part of the mech hanger with the Mist Lynx, kit Fox, Ice Ferret and Gargoyle. Something like the Coyotl (with a PGI thrid variant) would've been better, I mean she is a mini Ebon Jaguar with those hit boxes and weapon mounts. And before I hear the "It's out of production by 100 years!", so was the freaking Nova, but it's in the game!

Because Novas are still in active service in every galaxy and cluster in the game... and the Coyotl is in mothballs?

Gyrok, on 04 April 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

According to the "ACH OP" crowd, the ACH is the best at everything light mech in the game. I realize how full of crap they are...but you have a huge battle convincing those idiots in this forum that they are wrong... (Consequently, the same people would say the TW is more devastating under 450m than the BK as well...but it will take more than a day to remove their heads from being buried that far up their own asses)

"best at everything" in MWO = Best Laser Vomit in it's class. Because in this game, currently nothing else matters.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

Actually not, having this many mechs without having them be eclipsed by others IS to pigeon hole mechs. Sorry but customization can in fact be the bane of diversity with regards to the meta, so pigeon holing (or more appropriately termed specialized mechs) is necessary..

Only been saying this since closed beta..... and getting roundly shot down over it. Nice to see someone else state the obvious.

[Y E O N N E]

As long as 'Mechs are pigeon-holed into useful niches, I do not care.