143 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Aresye, on 07 April 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Just give it a few months for the meta to change, and then players will start complaining about the short-mid range tanky brawl meta we're currently in, because most forum complaints always seem to be about "yesterday's" meta.

For example, when poptarting died, the new TBR laser vomit meta was already in full force, yet it took a couple months before people stopped complaining about non-existent poptarts on the forums.

The, "everything is ERLL sniping" meta that everybody is STILL complaining about to this day? That died back when all IS quirked ranges got capped at 10%, which was what...2 months ago?

It takes months for people to adapt.. but that's the general populace... and not comp play. If anything, comp play is the place for experimentation and watching that proliferate to the masses (through a lot of salt in the process).

But hey, it took a while to get people to shoot down UAVs in the pub queue.. then again... people don't look up when they're getting lurmed sometimes.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 April 2016 - 04:29 PM.

[Impyrium]

1453 R, on 07 April 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

Don't get your hopes too far up.

I don't really think there's anything in the entire world Piranha could do where the TT standby of one-of-everything will ever truly be viable. You just can't get an effective fight out of an SRM-4, an LRM-10, an AC/5, a TAG, a flamer, a machine gun, and two medium lasers. The amount of horrible rules contortion required to make that sort of snarled-up mess a viable loadout would pretty much break MWO altogether.

No matter what the alpha limits are, some weapons will always work together better than others, and some weapons will still never work well with others. Even if the alpha limit is something super small, like 20, brackety builds that have one set of guns for "short range 20" and another set of guns for "long range 20" will lose to short-range 20 'Mechs that spend the rest of their tonnage on other short-range equipment or extra armor/mobility, and the same with long-range-20.

It's just the way the fundamental game mechanics work.

Oh I know, I'm not really hoping for something that will make my LRM15-6ML-AC5-PPC BattleMaster competitive. A mech like that is nigh impossible to shoot with.

But there is a gap between specialized builds and mixed builds that is currently super wide to the point specialized is really the only viable way to play unless you're fighting people that don't know what they're doing. Specialized will always be more effective at their respective ranges/situations. I'm just hoping that gap gets closed a little.

[Deathlike]

Dingo Red, on 07 April 2016 - 04:30 PM, said:

Oh I know, I'm not really hoping for something that will make my LRM15-6ML-AC5-PPC BattleMaster competitive. A mech like that is nigh impossible to shoot with.

But there is a gap between specialized builds and mixed builds that is currently super wide to the point specialized is really the only viable way to play unless you're fighting people that don't know what they're doing. Specialized will always be more effective at their respective ranges/situations. I'm just hoping that gap gets closed a little.

It's not really possible.

There's a reason why "jack of all trades" is followed by "master of none" when it comes to building mechs in this game.

[Impyrium]

Deathlike, on 07 April 2016 - 04:33 PM, said:

It's not really possible.

There's a reason why "jack of all trades" is followed by "master of none" when it comes to building mechs in this game.

I don't fully agree there. It is possible... just a lot of players might not like it. A energy system like what Bill suggested would go a long way in limiting specialized potential. If the Black Knight couldn't alpha everything at once, or a brawling mech couldn't unload every SRM at once, or if a Atlas couldn't vomit ACs and missiles, they'll no longer be quite as far ahead. They'll still be able to output the same amount of damage, just not all at once- and that'll be huge IMO.

But we won't know until we see anything of course.

Edited by Dingo Red, 07 April 2016 - 04:38 PM.

[Deathlike]

Dingo Red, on 07 April 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

I don't fully agree there. It is possible... just a lot of players might not like it. A energy system like what Bill suggested would go a long way in limiting specialized potential. If the Black Knight couldn't alpha everything at once, or a brawling mech couldn't unload every SRM at once, or if a Atlas couldn't vomit ACs and missiles, they'll no longer be quite as far ahead. They'll still be able to output the same amount of damage, just not all at once- and that'll be huge IMO.

But we won't know until we see anything of course.

What Homeless Bill was proposing was to adjust the obvious fact that heat didn't solve dual Gauss being more effective than any PPC/ERPPC combination you could run (before you factor in Ghost Heat).

That was the point. Your multi-faceted build (that'll still do nothing of worth regardless) won't be any better either way.

Boating has a purpose of simplicity... and trying to get "clever" is like trying to emulate Proton in one of those builds you are describing, but failing miserably because you have virtually zero chance to replicate his effectiveness in it.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 April 2016 - 04:42 PM.

[jss78]

I run them most of the time, from slightly mixed all the way to SRM/LRM/AC/Laser Shadow Hawks.

Lots of people run mixed builds in my experience. They're something of a hard mode compared to meta boats, but you can still do well in them in pugging, regardless of your tier.

[LegendaryArticuno]

Yep a few of my mechs use LPLs and med lasers.

[Trauglodyte]

Mixed builds, by definition, aren't AC+Lasers. Mixed builds refer to builds that utilized mixed weapons for mixed ranges. The stock Warhammer is a prime example: PPCs for range and Medium Lasers, Small Lasers, MGs, and SRMs for Short/Medium range. To answer your question, yes, people do run those builds as well. The problem is that PGI has allowed people to run rampant in the game doing whatever they want. Because of this, there isn't the need for range specialization because a Large Lasers is as good at 450m as it is at 270m (Medium Laser range) and 120m (Small Laser range). So, why bother with the smaller lighter weapons when the ranged weapon does it for you? This is the heart of the problem.

[MischiefSC]

If it performed as well or better consistently people would.

So you are asking why people don't run inferior builds?

[MischiefSC]

Addendum - I love uac20 + 4xsrm6 on my TBR . It's a huge mountain of face ****.

It's not a consist match for srms + spls or 6mpl though.

It's weapon synergy. You can't give every weapon synergy with everything else, it eliminates weapons variety.

[MauttyKoray]

-raises hand-

Its actually pretty rare you will ever see me use anything but mixed builds, unless its on mechs with limited hard point variety. Other times there are specific mechs I builds for roles when playing in a group. Otherwise a mixed build tends to always net damage.

Things like running an LRM or two on an assault, yes you take away from your short range punch but when running a low speed Assault and friendlies have run into the enemies, you can then lob LRMs their way while you approach the fight.

[Malachy Karrde]

Akulla1980, on 07 April 2016 - 01:03 AM, said:

All I almost exclusively see is all energy builds. Or some Dakka ones as well Yeah I know they are so easy to run. But damn cant some guys do something, anything else. Or is it to hard???

All I use are mixed builds. I usually try to mix long, medium, and short range weapons. My dire wolf uses 4 UAC 5, 2 lrm10, and 6 small lasers. It gives me plenty of flexibility. Lrms to use for their suppression fire abilities and when I need to shoot over something like idiot team mates, UAC for DPS, and er small lasers for 30 damage that I can pinpoint as needed and great for legging light .echs. best build I've found for a 100 tonner.

[Naduk]

All mixed all the time
I only own one Mech with single hard point types
And it's the Warhammer 7S
Even that is mixed build
2x ERppc , 2x flamers , 5x small lasers (might be a little off, at work can't check)
It's a blast, doesn't feel like a energy boat at all

[Kali Rinpoche]

I run a lot of mixed builds. That is unless a mech is so unless with anything other than boating a weapon type. Spamming 5-6 LL isn't much fun. I generally try to run 3 different weapon systems, with one filling the gap in range that I am vulnerable to b/c of the 1st two.

[Nyte Kitsune]

Most of my mech's are mixed builds, even my LRM boats (Usually carry a few lasers at least), as I find with a Mix of weapons you're ready for "Almost" anything. Problem with Laservomit mechs (and I do have a few) is that they run HOT, get unlucky and stuck on Terra Therma, Caustic Valley, Tourmaline Desert.. and sure, you may still do well, but you also risk overheating and becoming an easy kill.

The advantage to a mixed build is being prepared for a variety of situations, of course, individual mixed builds should be based on your prefered playstyle. I for example favor Lasers, Missiles and Ballistics, but I avoid using PPC's, unless a mech is quirked for them and even then I tend to use other weapons as the PPC's travel so slowly that they are easy to dodge, or Gauss which I hate that charge mechanic that was added to them making them practically useless unless you're standing still.

[Cementi]

I run alot of mixed builds especially when running in solo que. Backing up your direct fire weapons with some LRM's works very well when pugs do random things and frankly I find it more fun than ridge hump sniping or hiding untill you can bring your short range weapons to bear.

[Sjorpha]

FYI capping alphas won't make "mixed" builds any better, it will just push the meta from alpha-oriented boating to more dps-oriented boating.

[DovisKhan]

Akulla1980, on 07 April 2016 - 01:16 AM, said:

Always getting burned down by high alpha laser try-hards. Its making it impossible to skill up mixed hard point builds.

Did I hear they are trying to fix this issue?

That's not true at all, reached T3 in ~1-2 months, with a mixed build IS Orion, ML + LRM + AC

Now hitting T2 today after a few more months and I played Locust with 3 ML, Commando with 2 SRM4 and 2 ML, Marauder with 2 UAC5 and 4ML, MDD with LRMS and tag, PPC Catapult


No you don't need lasers to level up, my first laser mech I bought yesterday, BlackJack with 8 energy hardpoints, sure compared to the above it felt easy mode, but you surely can rank up no problem, even i some crappy Locust if you know what you're doing

[Moldur]

There are plenty of mixed builds. It seems that many people have selective memory and biases. I don't know what kind of lasers only game everyone else is playing. The reality is that most of the people dropping into pug are not trying to increase their absolute capability ceiling by metamech-ing every single thing they own.

But hey, that 1 in 5, or 1 in 10 game where everyone is running meta laser vomit happens 90% of the time right? No no no, forget all those other matches.

[Gattsus]

I play mixed builds... but I also enjoy playing with commandos, locusts and spiders.....