87 replies to this topic

[Kei Nogareru]

Alan Davion, on 10 April 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

The Wolfhound which Phelan Kell/Wolf received was a complete, from the ground up, brand-spanking-new Clan-Tech-Only mech. Clan Endo-Steel chassis, Clan Ferro-Fibrous armor, Clan XL engine, Clan ER and Pulse weapons.

His original Wolfhound was completely destroyed by Vlad Wolf and his Timber Wolf.

Khan Ulric Kerensky had the mech built from the information still stored in the computer of the original Wolfhounds head ejection pod, obviously after the Clan scientists and technicians got their hands on it and modified the design to accommodate their technology.

Damn, you're right. I had to go back and reread that part.

[Kei Nogareru]

cazidin, on 10 April 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

We need to balance IS and Clan weapons first before introducing mix tech, right?

Mix tech "should" make it easier to balance tech. It removes the chassis/faction from the equation and allows testing directly against similar weapons on the same mech. For example, c-erll vs erll effectiveness can be skewed by chassis hardpoints, hitboxes, heatsink type, etc. If you can run both on say a timberwolf it allows you to directly compare combat effectiveness.

[Kei Nogareru]

Metus regem, on 10 April 2016 - 06:34 PM, said:

IS mechs are not any where near as modular as MWO would have you believe. Switching from standard internals to Endo Steel could take weeks to years to complete, depending on how good your tech team is, and how well the factory was equipped that you went too. Swapping engines like we do in MWO would be just as labour intensive...

Exactly ^^^ The system is already NOT Battletech kosher, so why not go whole hog and allow us to mix tech?

[Lugh]

Carl Vickers, on 10 April 2016 - 05:07 PM, said:

Ooooo, my Jeager DD with 3 clan uac 5 and that -30% jam chance, id go to town.

I guarantee you'll be back to the 3 IS UAC5s before even 10 matches are done.

[Alan Davion]

Metus regem, on 10 April 2016 - 06:34 PM, said:

Cross Tech in universe happened after many, many years of conflict between the Clans and IS. Clan weapon pods are self contained weapons, software, software drivers and power connectors.

IS mechs are not any where near as modular as MWO would have you believe. Switching from standard internals to Endo Steel could take weeks to years to complete, depending on how good your tech team is, and how well the factory was equipped that you went too. Swapping engines like we do in MWO would be just as labour intensive... Think about it this way, look at the motor in your car, now let's take that out and drop in a 426 cubic inch (7 liter) engine, do you think it will fit? Will the pre-existing motor mounts still work? Will there be frame members in the way?

Years is stretching the truth a bit there.

You are correct in that it is, in lore, a very, very laborious process and would really only be capable of being done in a timely manner by the Great Houses and their specific House Units.

A merc unit would likely, let me say that again, likely, be better off just buying a completely new mech with all the bells and whistles rather than buying the parts and trying to retrofit them onto an existing chassis... With some notable exceptions such as the Gray Death, Wolf's Dragoons, Kell Hounds... I think that's pretty much it.

Kei Nogareru, on 11 April 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

Exactly ^^^ The system is already NOT Battletech kosher, so why not go whole hog and allow us to mix tech?

Because IS and Clans are still unbalanced against each other. Not as severely as they used to be, but there are overperformers and underperformers on both sides, allowing IS to equip Clan tech would skew the balance even further, this time in favor of the IS by what would likely be a huge margin.

The armor/structure buffs of the IS, combined with free-reign build customization, plus Clan Tech would make the already overperforming IS mechs practically invincible, being able to attack the clans at the same or even greater ranges...

No, just just no, so much no, all of the no.

The main problem we have with IS and Clan balance is that the main balancing factor from the TT rules, 12 IS vs 10 Clan is incapable of being coded into the game, and would likely require the entire matchmaking algorithm to be re-written from scratch, which would slow down production on other stuff like mechs, maps, game modes, so on and so forth.

IS and Clan balance is about as close as PGI can get it right now due to the quirk system, but the fact of the matter is, the quirk system is a bandaid on a sucking chest wound. IS and Clans will never have a 1:1 balance, especially in this game, but they are getting closer.

Once IS Omnis are introduced, depending on which Omnis are chosen, we'll see how things play out, but until more of the IS equivalent weapons are introduced, such as the remaining Ultra/LBX, Streaks, ERs and Pulses, Clans will have a weapons advantage, albeit a slight one, but an advantage none-the-less, over the IS, while the IS will have an armor/structure advantage over the Clans.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Lugh, on 11 April 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

I guarantee you'll be back to the 3 IS UAC5s before even 10 matches are done.

I still have 3 UACs on my Illya, and despite all the changes it's still a fun (and superior) mech to a 3 cUAC5 combo. Sounds better too.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Cross tech should be permisible on clan tech retrofitted mechs like the Atlas C.

However, all the IS tech available stock should be locked and no more should be added.

[Metus regem]

Alan Davion, on 11 April 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

Years is stretching the truth a bit there.

You are correct in that it is, in lore, a very, very laborious process and would really only be capable of being done in a timely manner by the Great Houses and their specific House Units.

A merc unit would likely, let me say that again, likely, be better off just buying a completely new mech with all the bells and whistles rather than buying the parts and trying to retrofit them onto an existing chassis... With some notable exceptions such as the Gray Death, Wolf's Dragoons, Kell Hounds... I think that's pretty much it.

Yes and no on the streaching of the truth, factoring in travel time to find a factory that could do it took time...

I mean in the last TT campagin I was in, I had a WHM-6R (stock) in the beginning of the game (3049) after many, many engagements my character slowly amassed a sizeable amount of c-bills, and a very strong attachment to his Warhammer, they he eventually did the conversion on it, along with a few others, that when we figured out the time to required to do it, that mech was out of action for close to two years before all the work on it was done, the custom fabricated Endo Steel chassis alone was 6 or 7 months, and we had gone to a Ronin Inc. facility that was making new Warhammers.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Metus regem, on 11 April 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

Yes and no on the streaching of the truth, factoring in travel time to find a factory that could do it took time...

I mean in the last TT campagin I was in, I had a WHM-6R (stock) in the beginning of the game (3049) after many, many engagements my character slowly amassed a sizeable amount of c-bills, and a very strong attachment to his Warhammer, they he eventually did the conversion on it, along with a few others, that when we figured out the time to required to do it, that mech was out of action for close to two years before all the work on it was done, the custom fabricated Endo Steel chassis alone was 6 or 7 months, and we had gone to a Ronin Inc. facility that was making new Warhammers.

This is something pretty much every computer based MW game has completely ignored. That's why it's kind of a double standard with Clan locked tonnage, but not the case for the IS. That's the whole point of different mech versions. They're not just variants, they're completely retooled by a manufacturing facility in most cases. This is why the Succession Wars are fighting over mech factories. Something else that's completely ignored in computer MW games.

PGI should have been smart and kept IS mechs as locked tonnage. They could have circumvented a lot of the balance issues they have now, as well as cranked out a ton more variants that people would buy for the same reason they buy every over quirked mech out there now. Variety and filling specific roles.

PGI logic, what can I say. They've shot themselves in the foot so many times, they don't have any toes left.

[C E Dwyer]

Kei Nogareru, on 10 April 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

Why can't we have cross tech (clan equip on IS and IS equip on clan mechs)? Seems like it would be much easier to balance and there would be less "IS/Clan is too OP/useless" bullcrap going around. We've pretty well thrown canon out the window and there were instances of clan tech being mounted on IS mechs (Grinner anyone?). Obviously you'd still have your craptastic mechs and your god-tier mechs, but that changes nothing. Am I missing something? Why can't we have this?

Makes the game not be Mechwarrior/Battletech, there's already a game for generic Robot fans it's called Hawken

[Metus regem]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 11 April 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

This is something pretty much every computer based MW game has completely ignored. That's why it's kind of a double standard with Clan locked tonnage, but not the case for the IS. That's the whole point of different mech versions. They're not just variants, they're completely retooled by a manufacturing facility in most cases. This is why the Succession Wars are fighting over mech factories. Something else that's completely ignored in computer MW games.

PGI should have been smart and kept IS mechs as locked tonnage. They could have circumvented a lot of the balance issues they have now, as well as cranked out a ton more variants that people would buy for the same reason they buy every over quirked mech out there now. Variety and filling specific roles.

PGI logic, what can I say. They've shot themselves in the foot so many times, they don't have any toes left.

I've been saying it for a long, lone time:


Battlemechs:

Locked interal types
Locked Engine types
Locked Engine sizes
Locked weapon mount types
Locked weapon mount positions
Sized Hard points
Locked equipment


Omni-mechs:

Locked internal type
Locked armour type
Locked engine size
Locked Engine type
some locked equipment
Pre-determined open crit spaces



That's how I would've done it, so Omni's give you freedom of weapon type, placement and sizes, Battlemechs give you choice of armour type as well as freedom for internal space. But that method would make min-maxers pull out their hair, but it would be more lore friendly... and yes I think it is stupid that I cram a AC/20 where a MG was in MWO.

[gauss musket]

How about enable mixing of weaponry only. IS can only use IS engines and equipment, and same for clans. Clan omnis would still have fixed equipment. Both could use either types of weapons.

[Mechteric]

Everything is wrong with cross tech.


Next question!!!






ok, ok, so if you need actual reason it is because otherwise there would be no point in balancing clan versus inner sphere. instead everyone would pretty much always take clan weapons, and that invalidates half the weapons in the game from even being used. No sane person would make a game where that could happen (hence why you traditionally couldn't do it in BattleTech either, unless you had house rules that allowed it).

[Alan Davion]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 11 April 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

Cross tech should be permisible on clan tech retrofitted mechs like the Atlas C.

However, all the IS tech available stock should be locked and no more should be added.

In lore that worked fine, but in MWO we still have the same problems I just outlined a few posts back.

The armor/structure buffs of the IS mechs, combined with the lower weight, fewer crit Clan weapons and other tech would make such mechs even bigger powerhouses than they already are, and in this case, they would only be usable by Clans which would create even more issues than allowing IS to use Clan tech.

Again, Clan's already have an advantage over IS mechs, slight though it maybe when it comes to weapons, to introduce 'captured IS mechs with Clan tech' would invalidate any number of mechs in the whole game because no one would take the underperforming Clan mechs when they can take the monstrous Clan retrofit mechs.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

CapperDeluxe, on 11 April 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Everything is wrong with cross tech.


Next question!!!






ok, ok, so if you need actual reason it is because otherwise there would be no point in balancing clan versus inner sphere. instead everyone would pretty much always take clan weapons, and that invalidates half the weapons in the game from even being used. No sane person would make a game where that could happen (hence why you traditionally couldn't do it in BattleTech either, unless you had house rules that allowed it).

In order to actually do cross tech, I don't think these people realize what that entails. For every IS chassis, they'd need new Endo and new DHS. They'd also need to buy a whole slew of shiny new XL engines. You think IS XLs are expanesive? Heh.

The Clans would have it easy since IS tech is relatively cheap for the few things they'd actually want/need to buy.

It's also mean pretty much the removal of all weapon quirks and any semblance of IS vs Clan. They'd free PGI from having to come up with a solid mech choice for release and let them pick whatever they wanted at will.

On the upside, it'd be a great way to change the game's current format and turn it into a Solaris arena and lock tonnage to tiers.

Basically people don't realize exactly what it is they're asking for. They just want the shiny without thinking it through.

[Lostdragon]

I doubt anyone would think cross tech was a good idea after they ran into my DWF with IS ACs.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Lostdragon, on 11 April 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

I doubt anyone would think cross tech was a good idea after they ran into my DWF with IS ACs.

Especially when they're getting insta gibbed via headshots for standing still too long.

[Khobai]

Quote

cable splicing is apparently lostech.

You cant cable splice a Type B and Type C plug. Theyre completely different voltages. Europe uses higher voltage outlets than the US because Europes power grid was built much later than the US' after they fully understood that transmitting power at a higher voltage means less losses due to resistance.

The entire reason why the plug types are different is so you dont fry Type B devices by plugging them in a Type C outlet. Also Type C plugs had to be safer because you can kill yourself more easily with the higher voltage lol.

You need an adapter that steps down the voltage. So I guess voltage regulators are lostech

Quote

In order to actually do cross tech, I don't think these people realize what that entails. For every IS chassis, they'd need new Endo and new DHS. They'd also need to buy a whole slew of shiny new XL engines. You think IS XLs are expanesive? Heh.

No you just let IS mechs use Clan XL, clan endo and clan ferro, and clan double heatsinks. IS mechs should be able to use Clan weapons too. Worked fine in mechwarrior 3.

I used to be against cross tech but now im for it because I dont believe PGI is capable of asymmetrical balancing their game ever. Clans have been out for over a year and they still arnt balanced. The game is a huge mess.

PGIs inability to achieve some type of asymmetrical balance makes it clear that crosstech is the only way to go. In order to keep the older tech relevant you can have an option for different "timelines" so people can play 3025, 3050, 3058, etc...

Edited by Khobai, 11 April 2016 - 10:32 AM.

[Alan Davion]

Khobai, on 11 April 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

No you just let IS mechs us Clan XL, clan endo and clan ferro, and clan double heatsinks like mechwarrior 3 did. IS mechs should be able to use Clan weapons too. Worked fine in mechwarrior 3.

I used to be against cross tech but now im for it because I dont believe PGI is capable of asymmetrical balancing their game ever. Clans have been out for over a year and they still arnt balanced. The game is a huge mess.

Again, that's because the main balance factor for IS and Clans, 12v10, is impossible for this game to handle, so they had to come up with a workaround.

[Gyrok]

FupDup, on 10 April 2016 - 06:52 PM, said:

Yeah, the TT stats on XPL are pretty bad for the most part. I think the MXPL has some uses, but the rest are just trash.

For argument's sake, most large class lasers in TT were **** stats, and are radically different in MWO.