87 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Again, that's because the main balance factor for IS and Clans, 12v10, is impossible for this game to handle, so they had to come up with a workaround.

Like I said I used to be all for 12v10. I was a staunch supporter of it. And having IS and clan be asymmetrically balanced sounded like an awesome idea at one time...

But that was a pipe dream. PGI is incapable of delivering that. And were not going to get a properly asymmetrical game where both IS and Clans have different but equal advantages.

What I KNOW will work is just making all mechs the same by letting everyone use the same tech. Just give everything the same common denominator. Yes it dumbs down the game but a dumbed down game thats balanced is better than the awful mess we have now.

Edited by Khobai, 11 April 2016 - 10:36 AM.

[Gyrok]

Alan Davion, on 11 April 2016 - 10:31 AM, said:

Again, that's because the main balance factor for IS and Clans, 12v10, is impossible for this game to handle, so they had to come up with a workaround.

It is not impossible...but it is time intensive, and labor intensive to make said changes.

[Alan Davion]

Gyrok, on 11 April 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

It is not impossible...but it is time intensive, and labor intensive to make said changes.

And therefore might as well just call it impossible, because to do so they'd probably have to put a stop to everything else they were doing, mechs, maps, modes... This engine upgrade we've heard rumored... And focus all of their coding resources on re-writing the entire matchmaking system.

Fact of the matter is, yes it would make the game much more balanced, but it would be so labor intensive that it'd probably be suicidal to attempt it as nothing else would be added or changed until it was done.

So, for all intents and purposes, 12v10 is impossible.

[Kei Nogareru]

Alan Davion, on 11 April 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

Because IS and Clans are still unbalanced against each other. Not as severely as they used to be, but there are overperformers and underperformers on both sides, allowing IS to equip Clan tech would skew the balance even further, this time in favor of the IS by what would likely be a huge margin.

The armor/structure buffs of the IS, combined with free-reign build customization, plus Clan Tech would make the already overperforming IS mechs practically invincible, being able to attack the clans at the same or even greater ranges...

Allowing Clan mechs to take IS tech would help in many cases as well though. Lower heat lasers/PPC's, single projectile ballistics, tighter LRM groupings. If mixed tech is allowed, most IS quirks could be removed and Clans could be allowed more customization. Mixed tech would obsolete some items on both sides, but that's just because those things are s*** to begin with. Either PGI would then fix them, or at least we wouldn't be forced to use crap equipment just because we chose the wrong side.

[Kei Nogareru]

Cathy, on 11 April 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

Makes the game not be Mechwarrior/Battletech, there's already a game for generic Robot fans it's called Hawken

I started playing with MW4, and there was mixed tech. So it would still qualify as a Mechwarrior game IMHO *shrug*

I've also read some of the books, and what we have here is nothing like that. We have a Battletech themed gundam sim/shooter. I'm really not keen on a FPS with a robot skin, otherwise I would play Hawken.

I don't see how mixed tech would make this any less Mechwarrior than the mess we have right now. I like this game, but it's definitely not true to Battletech, even in feel.

gauss musket, on 11 April 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

How about enable mixing of weaponry only. IS can only use IS engines and equipment, and same for clans. Clan omnis would still have fixed equipment. Both could use either types of weapons.

That would make TBR/DWF even better while doing nothing for s***ty Clan mechs. And it would make IS mechs way OP. Clans have to be able to customize in order for mixed tech to work.

[Alan Davion]

Kei Nogareru, on 11 April 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Allowing Clan mechs to take IS tech would help in many cases as well though. Lower heat lasers/PPC's, single projectile ballistics, tighter LRM groupings. If mixed tech is allowed, most IS quirks could be removed and Clans could be allowed more customization. Mixed tech would obsolete some items on both sides, but that's just because those things are s*** to begin with. Either PGI would then fix them, or at least we wouldn't be forced to use crap equipment just because we chose the wrong side.

*Insert gameshow "wrong" buzzer sound here*

Wrong.

No one would take IS side weapons that, A. Weigh More than their Clan counter parts, and B. Take up more Crit Slots than their Clan counterparts.

Literally the ENTIRE IS weapons list would become obsolete, with the possible, POSSIBLE exception of the standard IS autocannons, but even that is still a crap shoot.

Do you see the problem with mix-tech yet? Because I don't think we could explain it any more clearly than we have already.

[Khobai]

Quote

Literally the ENTIRE IS weapons list would become obsolete

hence why I suggested having different "timelines" as an option

So if you played in say 3025 then all those weapons would not be obsolete

They would only be obsolete further in the timeline... like 3058

Quote

Do you see the problem with mix-tech yet?

nope i dont.

adding timeline as a gamemode option allows all the tech to be relevant within a specific timeline.

but it also makes sure EVERYONE in the same timeline is using the same tech so the game is better balanced as a result

Edited by Khobai, 11 April 2016 - 11:53 AM.

[Alan Davion]

Khobai, on 11 April 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

hence why I suggested having different "timelines" as an option

So if you played in say 3025 then all those weapons would not be obsolete

They would only be obsolete further in the timeline... like 3058

nope i dont.

adding timeline as a gamemode option allows all the tech to be relevant within a specific timeline.

but it also makes sure EVERYONE in the same timeline is using the same tech so the game is better balanced as a result

In order to do what you say here PGI would probably have to go back to the old "Check box X to play Y game" of matchmaking, because I'm pretty sure that would not work with the current "Map/Mode" voting system.

Also, how would that work with CW? You'd have to further split the queues there, and people already do nothing but complain about how long it takes to find a match and then actually play it.

Just face facts, what you're asking for here is just as impossible as PGI implementing the 12v10 IS/Clan system.

It's just not going to happen.

EDIT: Seriously? We can't even use the B-word anymore? Cripes what the heck is next?

Edited by Alan Davion, 11 April 2016 - 12:06 PM.

[Lostdragon]

Alan Davion, on 11 April 2016 - 11:49 AM, said:

*Insert gameshow "wrong" buzzer sound here*

Wrong.

No one would take IS side weapons that, A. Weigh More than their Clan counter parts, and B. Take up more Crit Slots than their Clan counterparts.

Literally the ENTIRE IS weapons list would become obsolete, with the possible, POSSIBLE exception of the standard IS autocannons, but even that is still a crap shoot.

Do you see the problem with mix-tech yet? Because I don't think we could explain it any more clearly than we have already.

I would love to put IS autocannons on my Clan mechs, especially the DWF. 2x IS AC20 w/ 3x CLPL... I can hear the cries of anguish and screams of OP now.

[Kei Nogareru]

Alan Davion, on 11 April 2016 - 11:49 AM, said:

*Insert gameshow "wrong" buzzer sound here*

Wrong.

No one would take IS side weapons that, A. Weigh More than their Clan counter parts, and B. Take up more Crit Slots than their Clan counterparts.

Literally the ENTIRE IS weapons list would become obsolete, with the possible, POSSIBLE exception of the standard IS autocannons, but even that is still a crap shoot.

Do you see the problem with mix-tech yet? Because I don't think we could explain it any more clearly than we have already.

Lower heat/shorter laser duration/more PPFLD options/tighter missile groupings. <--- All things Clanners claim make the IS superior. If the weapons need adjusted further, we do have the technology to do so. It wouldn't be any more work to make the weapons viable against each other directly, rather than trying to put bandaids on mechs to make up for s*** weapons. I do understand what your saying, but a workaround for this is much simpler than the cluster**** of quirks that we have now.

[DefyingReality]

So you want to fragment an already small player base even further? Can't see anything possibly going wrong with that...

[Alan Davion]

Kei Nogareru, on 11 April 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

Lower heat/shorter laser duration/more PPFLD options/tighter missile groupings. <--- All things Clanners claim make the IS superior. If the weapons need adjusted further, we do have the technology to do so. It wouldn't be any more work to make the weapons viable against each other directly, rather than trying to put bandaids on mechs to make up for s*** weapons. I do understand what your saying, but a workaround for this is much simpler than the cluster**** of quirks that we have now.

If it's as simple as you claim, why has no one, either from the community, or PGI come up with one yet?

In order to fix this BS bandaid upon bandaid system we have now, PGI would be better served to just scrap it all and start from scratch.

That's how bloody bad things have gotten with the IS/Clan balance.

[gauss musket]

Kei Nogareru, on 11 April 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

<snip>

That would make TBR/DWF even better while doing nothing for s***ty Clan mechs. And it would make IS mechs way OP. Clans have to be able to customize in order for mixed tech to work.

What clan weapons/equipment are you thinking is going to make IS way OP? The only clan weapons I'd really like to try out on my IS mechs are C-ERPPCs, SSRM6s, and ERMLs. Clan ACs and lasers aren't (much) of an upgrade over the IS counterparts as already discussed.

Equipmentwise, IS using clan heatsinks might be a problem, and even then they have a tradeoff in lower dissipation rates and heat capacities compared to IS heatsinks. So who knows. If IS got access to clan XLs (which I did not propose) then maybe there would be a problem.... though that problem is only temporarily avoided if IS eventually gets light fusion engines (LFE).

Edited by gauss musket, 11 April 2016 - 12:32 PM.

[Kei Nogareru]

Alan Davion, on 11 April 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

If it's as simple as you claim, why has no one, either from the community, or PGI come up with one yet?

In order to fix this BS bandaid upon bandaid system we have now, PGI would be better served to just scrap it all and start from scratch.

That's how bloody bad things have gotten with the IS/Clan balance.

Why hasn't the community come up with this? Well, I think people probably have, but get shot down by the BT purists. Honestly though, you can't sell me this as a BT game. It's nothing like the lore.

Why hasn't PGI come up with this yet? Because PGI lol.

It's more work than bandaids so it won't happen. I know full well that mixed tech isn't getting put in any time soon, if ever, but I'd like to know why not (besides PGI's avoidance of work).

I'd love to see them rework the whole system and give it a real BT lore feel, but that will never happen.

[wanderer]

Mixtech at this point would narrow things down to a incredibly small pool of chassis with the best weapon types of whatever you happened to care about.

Some stuff would be outright never used, like IS NARC (Clan NARC is better in all respects).

And for the record, mixtech took over a century from now, timeline-wise, to become steady production-level machines. It really doesn't happen till the late 3100s, though rigged-up machines like the (C) variants for IS 'Mechs were indeed done by elite techs who could kludge together a tough-to-fix-but-works interface between the two tech trees.

[Alan Davion]

Kei Nogareru, on 11 April 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

Why hasn't the community come up with this? Well, I think people probably have, but get shot down by the BT purists. Honestly though, you can't sell me this as a BT game. It's nothing like the lore.

Why hasn't PGI come up with this yet? Because PGI lol.

It's more work than bandaids so it won't happen. I know full well that mixed tech isn't getting put in any time soon, if ever, but I'd like to know why not (besides PGI's avoidance of work).

I'd love to see them rework the whole system and give it a real BT lore feel, but that will never happen.

You want to know why it wouldn't be added... Look right down here... \/

wanderer, on 11 April 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

Mixtech at this point would narrow things down to a incredibly small pool of chassis with the best weapon types of whatever you happened to care about.

Some stuff would be outright never used, like IS NARC (Clan NARC is better in all respects).

And for the record, mixtech took over a century from now, timeline-wise, to become steady production-level machines. It really doesn't happen till the late 3100s, though rigged-up machines like the (C) variants for IS 'Mechs were indeed done by elite techs who could kludge together a tough-to-fix-but-works interface between the two tech trees.

That's why.

If Mix-Tech were added PGI might as well just remove 90% of the mechs in the game because nothing else would be worth using aside from the few strongest mechs with the strongest weapons and equipment.

And that would be F***ING BORING AS ALL HELL!

I know it, you know it, the ultra-comp-tier-meta-humpers know it.

At that point people would abandon this game faster than you could blink an eye.

If you still can't see what's wrong with mix tech, then there's no point in trying to further explain it.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Alan Davion, on 11 April 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

In lore that worked fine, but in MWO we still have the same problems I just outlined a few posts back.

The armor/structure buffs of the IS mechs, combined with the lower weight, fewer crit Clan weapons and other tech would make such mechs even bigger powerhouses than they already are, and in this case, they would only be usable by Clans which would create even more issues than allowing IS to use Clan tech.

Again, Clan's already have an advantage over IS mechs, slight though it maybe when it comes to weapons, to introduce 'captured IS mechs with Clan tech' would invalidate any number of mechs in the whole game because no one would take the underperforming Clan mechs when they can take the monstrous Clan retrofit mechs.

I don't disagree in general. However, lore cross tech retrofit mechs (and possibly IS omni mechs in a CW type thing) with the cross tech bits being fixed would be the only way I'd possibly accept cross tech.

Also... in the particular case of the Atlas C... I don't think it'd be hard to balance the Atlas C. It would have 4 fixed IS ML, 1-2 B and 2-3M hard points and possibly be restricted to STD or IS XL engines.

[Alan Davion]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 11 April 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

I don't disagree in general. However, lore cross tech retrofit mechs (and possibly IS omni mechs in a CW type thing) with the cross tech bits being fixed would be the only way I'd possibly accept cross tech.

Also... in the particular case of the Atlas C... I don't think it'd be hard to balance the Atlas C. It would have 4 fixed IS ML, 1-2 B and 2-3M hard points and possibly be restricted to STD or IS XL engines.

Except IS Omni mechs will still be limited to IS technology.

As it had already been pointed out, the two technology bases did not reach a point of complete interchangeability until well after the Word of Blake Jihad in the 3070s. And I'd be willing to bet no one wants those POS "Dark Age" mechs in this game... Not that many of them would work anyway, as most DA mechs had melee weapons.

In the case of the Atlas (C), again, it works fine in Lore, but here, in this game, if you opened up the IS mechs to be used by the Clan factions, but said "You can only change this or this, everything else is locked", you'd end up with the same complaints about locked equipment we already have with the under performing Clan mechs like the Lynx and the Summoner.

You're screwed no matter which way the pendulum swings people. Seriously... Why can't anyone see that?

[Gyrok]

Alan Davion, on 11 April 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

You're screwed no matter which way the pendulum swings people. Seriously... Why can't anyone see that?

Rose colored glasses with blinders on...

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 11 April 2016 - 10:34 AM, said:

Like I said I used to be all for 12v10. I was a staunch supporter of it. And having IS and clan be asymmetrically balanced sounded like an awesome idea at one time...

But that was a pipe dream. PGI is incapable of delivering that. And were not going to get a properly asymmetrical game where both IS and Clans have different but equal advantages.

What I KNOW will work is just making all mechs the same by letting everyone use the same tech. Just give everything the same common denominator. Yes it dumbs down the game but a dumbed down game thats balanced is better than the awful mess we have now.

I'd rather MWO die a totally inglorious death than see it dumbed down in that direction.