87 replies to this topic

[Kei Nogareru]

Why can't we have cross tech (clan equip on IS and IS equip on clan mechs)? Seems like it would be much easier to balance and there would be less "IS/Clan is too OP/useless" bullcrap going around. We've pretty well thrown canon out the window and there were instances of clan tech being mounted on IS mechs (Grinner anyone?). Obviously you'd still have your craptastic mechs and your god-tier mechs, but that changes nothing. Am I missing something? Why can't we have this?

[FupDup]

It lets you combine the strengths of both factions and eliminate the weaknesses of both.

[LordKnightFandragon]

FupDup, on 10 April 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

It lets you combine the strengths of both factions and eliminate the weaknesses of both.

Except you cant get rid of the locked Clan equipment issue. I think cross tech would make the IS completely superior to the Clans in every way.

IS get full on customization just as we have in every other MW game, but now gets Clan tech. Cross tech would basically be everything PGI tried to stop by not letting Clans unmount equipment.

[Kei Nogareru]

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 April 2016 - 03:47 PM, said:

Except you cant get rid of the locked Clan equipment issue. I think cross tech would make the IS completely superior to the Clans in every way.

IS get full on customization just as we have in every other MW game, but now gets Clan tech. Cross tech would basically be everything PGI tried to stop by not letting Clans unmount equipment.

So give the clans full customization.

[FupDup]

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 April 2016 - 03:47 PM, said:

Except you cant get rid of the locked Clan equipment issue. I think cross tech would make the IS completely superior to the Clans in every way.

IS get full on customization just as we have in every other MW game, but now gets Clan tech. Cross tech would basically be everything PGI tried to stop by not letting Clans unmount equipment.

The way you get around that is by using the Clan gundams that don't have bad locked equipment. Locked equipment is only a weakness when the locked items are bad items. Locked items that are good items are not a weakness, as seen by mechs like the infamous TBR, SCR, etc.

[LordKnightFandragon]

FupDup, on 10 April 2016 - 03:49 PM, said:

The way you get around that is by using the Clan gundams that don't have bad locked equipment. Locked equipment is only a weakness when the locked items are bad items. Locked items that are good items are not a weakness, as seen by mechs like the infamous TBR, SCR, etc.

Except the idea to "balance" is to make every item in the game viable in one way or another. Sounds like it would just shift the meta, instead of fix balance. Shifting meta seems to be all that happens in this game.

[thehiddenedge]

because Inner Sphere uses a type B Socket,


and Clans use a Type C


They just don't work together it seems.

Edited by thehiddenedge, 10 April 2016 - 03:53 PM.

[FupDup]

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 April 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

Except the idea to "balance" is to make every item in the game viable in one way or another.

...Which is not the case in-game right now.

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 April 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

Sounds like it would just shift the meta, instead of fix balance. Shifting meta seems to be all that happens in this game.

That is exactly the effect that Mixed Tech would have.

[Alan Davion]

Kei Nogareru, on 10 April 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

We've pretty well thrown canon out the window and there were instances of clan tech being mounted on IS mechs. Grinner anyone?.

You lost absolutely all credibility with this statement right here.

The Wolfhound which Phelan Kell/Wolf received was a complete, from the ground up, brand-spanking-new Clan-Tech-Only mech. Clan Endo-Steel chassis, Clan Ferro-Fibrous armor, Clan XL engine, Clan ER and Pulse weapons.

His original Wolfhound was completely destroyed by Vlad Wolf and his Timber Wolf.

Khan Ulric Kerensky had the mech built from the information still stored in the computer of the original Wolfhounds head ejection pod, obviously after the Clan scientists and technicians got their hands on it and modified the design to accommodate their technology.

For all intents and purposes, it was the Wolfhound IIC.

You are probably thinking of something like this... From the BattleTech wiki. SHD-2H (C) A Clan-tech retrofit of the classic Shadow Hawk and intended for second-line and solahma troops, the Shadow Hawk C replaces all Inner Sphere-tech weaponry with Clan equivalents but leaves the structural components of the SHD-2H unaltered. The Shadow Hawk C mounts an LB 5-X AC, an LRM-5 equipped with Swarm LRM munitions, a Streak SRM-2, and an ER Medium Laser. ^[14] BV (2.0) = 1,260^[15] These were mechs that were captured by the Clans, either complete and undamaged or damaged enough to be salvagable. Modified only where absolutely necessary, and generally only the weapons. Which was still a fairly laborious process.

[Wintersdark]

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 April 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

Except the idea to "balance" is to make every item in the game viable in one way or another. Sounds like it would just shift the meta, instead of fix balance. Shifting meta seems to be all that happens in this game.

Shifting the meta is all that will ever happen. It's all that EVER happens, in any game, with balance changes. You just try to get things as close as you can, but always, ALWAYS, there will be a "best" setup and that will become "the next meta".

That doesn't mean you shouldn't try for better balance, but do it cognizant that you're always ultimately just shifting the meta.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

CrossTech reminds me of Wesley Snipes character from the Blade movies. All the strengths of a vampire / human hybrid with none of their weaknesses. Then I wondered if there might be fundamental technological incompatibilities. Crossing Linux with Windows to create a hybrid operating system that contained the strenghs of both OS, with none of their weaknesses might seem simple on paper. But in the real world proprietary constraints a lack of source code and hurdles involved with reverse engineering millions of lines of code would conspire to make such a feat impossibru.

While clan tech and inner sphere analogues seem plug and play to a point where it would be child's play to plug clan components into existing inner sphere technology, there would have to be a plot shield preventing such an occurrence as it would render clan tech and IS tech obsolete.

[Wintersdark]

I Zeratul I, on 10 April 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

Then I wondered if there might be fundamental technological incompatibilities. Crossing Linux with Windows to create a hybrid operating system that contained the strenghs of both OS, with none of their weaknesses might seem simple on paper. But in the real world proprietary constraints a lack of source code and hurdles involved with reverse engineering millions of lines of code would conspire to make such a feat impossibru.

https://insights.ubu...ows-developers/

[Carl Vickers]

Ooooo, my Jeager DD with 3 clan uac 5 and that -30% jam chance, id go to town.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Wintersdark, on 10 April 2016 - 05:05 PM, said:

https://insights.ubu...ows-developers/

That's an ubuntu shell on top of windows OS. Its like windows98 (? I don't remember too well if win2k was NT kernel or DOS) and lower iterations where windows operated as a shell on top of the DOS operating system. It doesn't function as a true hybrid OS which combines the best of both OS. It introduces additional inefficiencies, bugs and security vulnerabilities due to the introduction of unnecessary abstraction layers and stacked inter operability. Due to hardware advances cancelling out portions of the lack of optimization inefficiencies could be unnoticeable but nah brah that wouldn't represent the massive leap forward hybrid OS one might expect. People like cygwin have been operating BASH shells on windows for more than a decade.

[Wintersdark]

I Zeratul I, on 10 April 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

That's an ubuntu shell on top of windows OS. Its like windows98 (? I don't remember too well if win2k was NT kernel or DOS) and lower iterations where windows operated as a shell on top of the DOS operating system. It doesn't function as a true hybrid OS which combines the best of both OS. It introduces additional inefficiencies, bugs and security vulnerabilities due to the introduction of unnecessary abstraction layers and stacked inter operability. Due to hardware advances cancelling out portions of the lack of optimization inefficiencies could be unnoticeable but nah brah that wouldn't represent the massive leap forward hybrid OS one might expect. People like cygwin have been operating BASH shells on windows for more than a decade.

I know what it is =) That was mostly a joke more than anything.

Well, I will point out, it's NOT like cygwin. It gives access to the entire ubuntu userspace in windows 10. All ubuntu binaries, including apt etc. It's a huge step forward by MS (though IMHO it would be more useful the other way around, being able to run windows binaries natively in Linux, but I'll take what I can get. Progress is progress!)

But yeah, it was a joke =)

Edited by Wintersdark, 10 April 2016 - 05:23 PM.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Wintersdark, on 10 April 2016 - 05:22 PM, said:

I know what it is =) That was mostly a joke more than anything.

Well, I will point out, it's NOT like cygwin. It gives access to the entire ubuntu userspace in windows 10. All ubuntu binaries, including apt etc. It's a huge step forward by MS (though IMHO it would be more useful the other way around, being able to run windows binaries natively in Linux, but I'll take what I can get. Progress is progress!)

But yeah, it was a joke =)

Its more like VMware or Xen then. Virtualization. Yeh. I know nothing about computers, brah.

[Chados]

3C Rifleman with dual uAC/10 and ERMLs.

Yeah, I'd go there.

[Khobai]

MW3 had cross tech. It worked fine. Cross tech solves virtually all balance problems with the game.

The only downside of crosstech is that you lose the potential for IS and Clans to play different and be asymmetrically balanced. But PGI already screwed the pooch on that one. Cross tech is the only realistic option for fixing the game and digging themselves out of the hole theyre in now.

I personally would not be against the idea of moving the timeline ahead to 3058 and allowing cross tech between IS and clans. Because its obvious the system we have now isnt working. I have completely lost faith in PGIs ability to asymmetrically balance IS vs clans so making everything the same is the only logical course of action.

Edited by Khobai, 10 April 2016 - 06:06 PM.

[cazidin]

We need to balance IS and Clan weapons first before introducing mix tech, right?

[Wintersdark]

I Zeratul I, on 10 April 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

Its more like VMware or Xen then. Virtualization. Yeh. I know nothing about computers, brah.

Sorry, I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not =) I certainly didn't mean to imply you knew nothing (if the above is sarcastic), but if you don't know about the subject material, then my apologies and ignore my excessively nerdy and not-very-funny joke above.

But for clarity:

It's not like VM (or whatever other virtual machine) - it's not a Linux Kernel running under windows in a VM.

It's not like cygwin, which is just some linux utilities and such ported to windows.


It's actually binaries, compiled for Ubuntu, running natively under the Windows NT kernel. It's a new thing, and while your post was right, in that its not a great unification and holy grail of combined OS's, it IS a wholly new thing and very, very cool. Mostly in what it represents: Microsoft finally moving to work with Linux, instead of against. There's an argument that they're switching tactics to "absorb" rather than "destroy" but i tend to slot a lot of that in with typical linux neck-beard style "M$ IS THE DEVIL" ranting.



(Full disclosure, I run *many* Linux based machines at home, as well as my Windows gaming rig - I love both, and have no particular ideology to pursue, pro- or con- either OS. I'm just excited to see my favoured Linux utilities Just Working in Windows. That's awesome.)