68 replies to this topic

[Monodominant]

So, I have been fiddling with my Marauder 3R and finding it lacking... funnily enough the 'meta' build (2 PPC and 2 UAC5) really isnt cutting it for me.

I tried the 4LPL version and that too is interesting but also not my cup of tea (I have too many mechs running with LPLs and wanted something different).

It dawned on me that while I couldnt have 2 x AC10 or 2 x AC20 or 2 x Gauss given the mounts for the ballistics are on the ST there was something that actually appeared to fit. Weapons I have not used before... the LBX10!

Now, when I actually hovered over it, I was surprised... optimal close to 600m. I said... 'eh what?' This was a shotgun with equal damage to AC10 but spread out (a negative thing) theoretically good for critting but not really and using less slots... (its main benefit for me). But why the heck does a SHOTGUN have such a long effective range?

Would it not be better to buff the crit and damage of the weapon but reduce its range a bit (maybe 400 meters?) and also make it so that when going beyond effective you do MUCH less damage than usual (given its a shotgun... if it hits you from far away maybe you get some bruises). Perhaps a mechanic where when fired in less than half the effective it has a benefit to damage? Like if you shoot with it within 200 meters then you do extra damage or extra crits...

[Steve Pryde]

Because Battletech table top. Even at max range u could hit with most of the bullets there. But yeah, it's a nice idea to buff dmg and reduce range.

[Pariah Devalis]

According to the rules, when put into cluster ammunition mode, LBX act more like proximity detonated airburst rounds that cover a target in a shotgunlike blast. That is to say, being 1 foot from the enemy isn't supposed to make the weapon spread any less than being 600 meters from the enemy. It isn't a shotgun in that it isn't supposed to be a fixed cone emanating from the barrel and getting wider the further out.

Unfortunately, PGI wants to go with a spread, shotgun approach to the mechanic, so we will never be able to actually use the maximum optimal range of the LBX effectively. If they just used the C-ERPPC splash code instead, however, you could simulate a fixed damage spread across all ranges. Obviously with the proportion of core damage to spread damage being altered. Would be great if the damage to internal structure was increased by 1.5x or so, too, so you give up the ability to easily break armor but gain increased lethality to internals.

[Rushin Roulette]

Seeing as you can only use 1 of the side torsos on the Marauder, you can only choose between 2*LBX10 or either one of AC20 or Gauss. The AC20 and the Gauss both need more than half of the available slots, so a second one will not fit.

As for your question regarding the range of the LBX. Yes it does have a long range, but the spread of the individual shells is so far apart at that range, that many of them will miss an Awsome or Direwolf even if you aimed right at it. Shotguns in real life are not that short ranged either. They shoot further than many realise.. but they also have the same problem of ending up peppering the horizon if the pellets can travel far enough.

Pariah Devalis, on 13 April 2016 - 03:47 AM, said:

According to the rules, when put into cluster ammunition mode, LBX act more like proximity detonated airburst rounds that cover a target in a shotgunlike blast. That is to say, being 1 foot from the enemy isn't supposed to make the weapon spread any less than being 600 meters from the enemy. It isn't a shotgun in that it isn't supposed to be a fixed cone emanating from the barrel and getting wider the further out.

Well, seeing as many of the TT rules are just compeltely unrealistic and can not be explained (Gauss dealing reduced damage under minimal range for example) it makes much, much more sense the way the LBX has been implemented in MWO.
The way it should happen per TT rules is the bullets fly out of the straight barrel... make a curve as soon as they exit the muzzle to spread out a bit... then turn back to the original trajectory and fly towards the opposing mech in a spread. Care to explain how that is physically possible without "its space magic, dont ask!" ?
Also before you say that this is a fictional universe and technology is unknown to us; ACs are basically newer versions of currently existing weapons (Tank cannons) and shoot out shaped balls of metal which cause impact damage on the targets. These unguided lumps of metal still need to obey the same Newtonian laws with their trajectories.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 13 April 2016 - 03:56 AM.

[WhineyThePoo]

Was going to write something long and complex about proximity detonated cluster rounds, and that the CERPPC mechanic probably would be better suited. But someone beat me to it...

[El Bandito]

PGI could simply increase the LBX pellet damage to make it more shotgun-like (deadlier than AC10 up close but sucks at long range), or give it a chance to crit internals even when the section hit still has armor (tiny pellets finding their way inside through small openings).

Alas, such prospect is dim.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 April 2016 - 03:55 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Rushin Roulette, on 13 April 2016 - 03:48 AM, said:

Well, seeing as many of the TT rules are just compeltely unrealistic and can not be explained (Gauss dealing reduced damage under minimal range for example) it makes much, much more sense the way the LBX has been implemented in MWO.
The way it should happen per TT rules is the bullets fly out of the straight barrel... make a curve as soon as they exit the muzzle to spread out a bit... then turn back to the original trajectory and fly towards the opposing mech in a spread. Care to explain how that is physically possible without "its space magic, dont ask!" ?
Also before you say that this is a fictional universe and technology is unknown to us; ACs are basically newer versions of currently existing weapons (Tank cannons) and shoot out shaped balls of metal which cause impact damage on the targets. These unguided lumps of metal still need to obey the same Newtonian laws with their trajectories.

I answered it right there. Research "air burst." It is modern technology that is used in some hand held firearms, actually. I'm not doing your homework for you, not with that attitude of yours.

Alternatively, ye olde flak cannons.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 13 April 2016 - 03:59 AM.

[Metus regem]

Rushin Roulette, on 13 April 2016 - 03:48 AM, said:

Seeing as you can only use 1 of the side torsos on the Marauder, you can only choose between 2*LBX10 or either one of AC20 or Gauss. The AC20 and the Gauss both need more than half of the available slots, so a second one will not fit.

As for your question regarding the range of the LBX. Yes it does have a long range, but the spread of the individual shells is so far apart at that range, that many of them will miss an Awsome or Direwolf even if you aimed right at it. Shotguns in real life are not that short ranged either. They shoot further than many realise.. but they also have the same problem of ending up peppering the horizon if the pellets can travel far enough.



Well, seeing as many of the TT rules are just compeltely unrealistic and can not be explained (Gauss dealing reduced damage under minimal range for example) it makes much, much more sense the way the LBX has been implemented in MWO.
The way it should happen per TT rules is the bullets fly out of the straight barrel... make a curve as soon as they exit the muzzle to spread out a bit... then turn back to the original trajectory and fly towards the opposing mech in a spread. Care to explain how that is physically possible without "its space magic, dont ask!" ?
Also before you say that this is a fictional universe and technology is unknown to us; ACs are basically newer versions of currently existing weapons (Tank cannons) and shoot out shaped balls of metal which cause impact damage on the targets. These unguided lumps of metal still need to obey the same Newtonian laws with their trajectories.

Um no?

I've seen smart munitions for 120mm cannons that can adjust their trajectory in flight. Air burst rouds are a real thing, they are also called 'canister rounds', they fly a set distance then depoly a payload of submunitions, again a real thing, they've been in use for almost 100 years now in the form of flak cannons.


Anyways in BT AC's have more in common with the M230E1 30mm Cain gun on the Apache, than they do with the cannon on the Abrams tank. Tank cannons in BT are more like Mech rifles, not as good as AC's.

[Pariah Devalis]

Metus regem, on 13 April 2016 - 04:13 AM, said:

Um no?

I've seen smart munitions for 120mm cannons that can adjust their trajectory in flight. Air burst rouds are a real thing, they are also called 'canister rounds', they fly a set distance then depoly a payload of submunitions, again a real thing, they've been in use for almost 100 years now in the form of flak cannons.


Anyways in BT AC's have more in common with the M230E1 30mm Cain gun on the Apache, than they do with the cannon on the Abrams tank. Tank cannons in BT are more like Mech rifles, not as good as AC's.

I still wanna see HAGs, if only because Metal Storm.



Vvvvvrrppp!

(Yes, I know HAGs are gauss derivatives, but I just picture a metal storm like effect out of those!)

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 13 April 2016 - 04:18 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

I totally think LBX should be double dmg with a high fall off.

[Rushin Roulette]

Pariah Devalis, on 13 April 2016 - 03:57 AM, said:

I answered it right there. Research "air burst." It is modern technology that is used in some hand held firearms, actually. I'm not doing your homework for you, not with that attitude of yours.

Alternatively, ye olde flak cannons.

What attitude? I was saying that objectively and in no way aimed at insulting you. The Space magic reference was more directed at Sci-Fi science in general terms such as just about anything Star Trek/Star Wars or in this case, things like the MW Tabletop rules having no explanation why a solid lump of metal fired out of a Gauss rifle should deal less damage up close than at optimal range.

Air burst weapons are an explanation, but during the 80s (when the TT rules were made), the only ability of having an air burst weapon (such as AA cannons) where the shell exploded at a set distance was for either manually adjusting the muzzle speed to be or the fuse timing for the explosive in the shell (Air burst shells are more like shooting hand grenades than regular shells in simple terms) so that the burst happened at a specific distance from the cannon.
Modern air burst weapons are computer controlled and use laser rangefinders to automatically adjust this... but that is not part of the MW Tabletop rules and was not even dreamed possible at the time with the knowledge of computers from back then.

[Pariah Devalis]

Rushin Roulette, on 13 April 2016 - 04:24 AM, said:

What attitude? I was saying that objectively and in no way aimed at insulting you. The Space magic reference was more directed at Sci-Fi science in general terms such as just about anything Star Trek/Star Wars or in this case, things like the MW Tabletop rules having no explanation why a solid lump of metal fired out of a Gauss rifle should deal less damage up close than at optimal range.

Air burst weapons are an explanation, but during the 80s (when the TT rules were made), the only ability of having an air burst weapon (such as AA cannons) where the shell exploded at a set distance was for either manually adjusting the muzzle speed to be or the fuse timing for the explosive in the shell (Air burst shells are more like shooting hand grenades than regular shells in simple terms) so that the burst happened at a specific distance from the cannon.
Modern air burst weapons are computer controlled and use laser rangefinders to automatically adjust this... but that is not part of the MW Tabletop rules and was not even dreamed possible at the time with the knowledge of computers from back then.

At the time in the 80's, gauss rifles were impossible too. Let alone Particle Cannons. This is a case where reality came and supplied a perfect answer to an act of imagination from the past. If it works, use it. Its behaviour mirrors LB-X cluster munition behaviour almost perfectly. You just need a rangefinder (which we have), a targeting computer (which we have), and munitions capable of interfacing with the prior two to be preset to detonate at the range of a target. Alternatively, an integrated proximity sensor on the round itself that says "detonate at X meters from surface," which simplifies the process but increases the cost and complexity of the ammunition itself.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 13 April 2016 - 04:30 AM.

[WhineyThePoo]

Proximity fuses were first developed during the 30s and became a working technology in the 40s.

Just saying...

[GoldenPixelF2P]

My problem with this idea is that the LB2/5/10/20-X AC does 2/5/10/20 respectively. It isn't meant to do more damage then that. Maybe a higher crit ratio, but if they were to do as you want it, it would make the name pretty redundant, unless you're trying to make it about the number of shots. As for spread, it isn't as bad as the shotguns we know today. For a few hundred feet, it's not that bad. In fact, I've hit people past the maximum damage range with enough pellets to disorient them.

[Karl Streiger]

Doppler effect fuse - most with a simple on contact fuse as backup. No very much high teck simple and a very nice addition to turn your HE round from bad into badass.
Space magic and weapons can be found within GWs 40k... serious the fuse is complete nonsense.

As said the LBX is more a kind of a FLAK round not a shotgun. There is another advantage for the LBX as splash damage weapon like the PPC. not so much bullets = better hit regestration.
(btw i would turn missiles in the registration code instead of 5 LRMs or 2 SRMs into a single projectile and let the splash do the rest. same for clan acs.... always 2 shots....with lots of firework in between

[Metus regem]

Pariah Devalis, on 13 April 2016 - 04:28 AM, said:

At the time in the 80's, gauss rifles were impossible too. Let alone Particle Cannons. This is a case where reality came and supplied a perfect answer to an act of imagination from the past. If it works, use it. Its behaviour mirrors LB-X cluster munition behaviour almost perfectly. You just need a rangefinder (which we have), a targeting computer (which we have), and munitions capable of interfacing with the prior two to be preset to detonate at the range of a target. Alternatively, an integrated proximity sensor on the round itself that says "detonate at X meters from surface," which simplifies the process but increases the cost and complexity of the ammunition itself.

In his defense though, LB cluster rounds are both described as what amounts to canister rounds or shotgun rounds, depending on the source material you read. Given their range and effect in TT I'm inclined to go with canister rounds.

[Monodominant]

Yes, shotguns with pellets can have those pellets travel far and do NO damage. In my mind thats what shooting beyond optimal means.

Shotguns with pellets are used for hunting birds for example because its like shooting a cloud of metal as the bird flies and some of them hit it. Shoot too far and maybe the bird is wounded or just doesnt care.

In my eyes a 600 optimal should mean you do ALL your damage. Now given that this could mean 1 damage at LT , 1 damage RT, 1 damage CT, 1 damage Right Hand etc. etc. it makes the weapon terrible! I think the idea of the shotgun spreading would be more effective if somehow the range was reduced but within that reduced range the weapon would pack the intended punch. Now you have spread damage at 600 meters and even worse damage after that making it a subpar weapon.

I love playing brawly and the LBX sounds like an ultimate brawly weapon! As it stands though its only benefit is the reduced slots while suffering from many negatives (outlined above). I dont honestly care about the physics or the lore or the technology of the thing. Games, unlike real life, should go for gameplay and how to enhance it. And currently the gameplay of the LBX is a pretty terrible weapon that in theory should be good.

[El Bandito]

GoldenPixelF2P, on 13 April 2016 - 04:52 AM, said:

My problem with this idea is that the LB2/5/10/20-X AC does 2/5/10/20 respectively. It isn't meant to do more damage then that. Maybe a higher crit ratio, but if they were to do as you want it, it would make the name pretty redundant, unless you're trying to make it about the number of shots. As for spread, it isn't as bad as the shotguns we know today. For a few hundred feet, it's not that bad. In fact, I've hit people past the maximum damage range with enough pellets to disorient them.

2/5/10/20 can simply be the number of pellets fired, the pellet damage itself can be changed. PGI already changed a lot of weapons' damage value, so there is no reason not to touch LBX numbers.

I think the pellets should deal around 1.5 damage, for starters, and the LBX range reduced.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 April 2016 - 08:10 AM.

[Metus regem]

El Bandito, on 13 April 2016 - 05:04 AM, said:

2/5/10/20 can simply be the number of pellets fired, the pellet damage itself can be changed. PGI already changed a lot of weapons' damage value, so there is no reason not to touch LBX numbers.

I think the pellets should deal around 1.5 damage, for starters, and the LBX range reduced.

I'd rather see a proper canister round approach, have the round open into submunitions at around 25-50m from the target.

[El Bandito]

Metus regem, on 13 April 2016 - 05:11 AM, said:

I'd rather see a proper canister round approach, have the round open into submunitions at around 25-50m from the target.

My suggestion is very easy to implement with very little chance of PGI mucking it up. Just keeping it simple.