102 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 22 April 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

203 IS mechs:
40 lights
60 mediums
52 heavies
51 assaults

Four lights can equip ECM, one behind a paywall.
Two mediums can equip ECM.
Two heavies can equip ECM, one behind paywall.
One assault can equip ECM.

9 / 203 == 4.43% ECM saturation

92 Clan mechs:
21 lights
24 mediums
24 heavies
23 assaults

Three clan lights come with ECM, up to thirteen can equip it.
One clan medium comes with ECM, up to four can equip it.
One clan heavy comes with ECM, up to three can equip it.
No clan assaults can equip ECM.

20 / 92 == 21.74% ECM saturation

Don't care.

Bring on the Kingfisher F-like variant! It will barely increase the ECM saturation, as only one variant can equip it (CT ECM).

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2016 - 01:24 PM, said:

Don't care.

Bring on the Kingfisher F-like variant! It will barely increase the ECM saturation, as only one variant can equip it (CT ECM).

I can agree with that, gives at least one ECM assault to the Clams.

I was just curious to the actual ECM saturation.

Edited by Saint Scarlett Johan, 22 April 2016 - 01:27 PM.

[Snowbluff]

Or an MWO capable Viper-U. Too bad it has a hatchet and storage tanks.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

This is the second time that you have acted like the Hellbringer wasn't one of the best mechs in the game at one point, despite its chassis restrictions.

Can't be worth much, judging by Kingfisher bias. It's basically the same argument: There is a set tonnage amount that you measure the ECM with. The Hellbringer is a mech I dislike. The Geometry isn't much of an improvement over the chicken walker clan heavies at best, and you're eating extra weight for no reason. IF you can get your 4 tons back, it'd probably be pretty good (PGI plz), but the relative lack of pod space bothers me.

The kingfisher is like the same problem, but like x4 the lost tonnage.

Edited by Snowbluff, 22 April 2016 - 01:34 PM.

[Bulletsponge0]

Snowbluff, on 22 April 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

It usually costs you some hardpoints. ONly Skitties, Kitfoxes, and ArcticCheaters really run ECM. Hellbringer trades too much capacity compared to an Ebon Jag, and the Mist Lynx is terminally unpopular.

To answer the OP's question though, there are just many more IS Mechs than Clan ones. I think it's okay as far as ECM goes... but I wish we had more mechs.

no...just no...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Snowbluff, on 22 April 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

The Geometry isn't much of an improvement over the chicken walker clan heavies at best, and you're eating extra weight for no reason. IF you can get your 4 tons back, it'd probably be pretty good (PGI plz), but the relative lack of pod space bothers me.

It was one of the top heavies before the rebalance when all the IS mechs got structure buffs. Hell it is still solid these days, just not as good as the BK (something even the Timby sort of suffers from).

[Gyrok]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 22 April 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

Uh, it was the ******* Pope of the Holy Trinity. And it puts up better numbers than my Timbers by a significant margin for CW. It's my preferred CW clan heavy. I only take a TBR-Prime(I) over another Hellbringer because that (I) means more money.

It was good...make no mistake...I never said it was bad...

It was the best hill peeking heavy for sure...

Now, with ECM being much less relevant, and the weapons nerfed to hell...plus the uber quirked IS mechs on the other side. Is it a good mech? Sure...it certainly is not terrible...but it is pretty far from being a top tier comp mech. It is less durable than any of the quirked heavy mechs you are bound to see from IS, and it does not have an advantage in firepower, or range to really speak of outside something like the ERLL spam build.

If you are talking about CW...well...sure...you used to be able to drop 4 HBRs. Now...you cannot, so that is probably less appealing once again...however...CW is not really a forum for balance for numerous reasons.

[Oberost]

El Bandito, on 22 April 2016 - 12:00 PM, said:

IS also have 2 chassis to every clan one. So there.

This.

[Gas Guzzler]

Snowbluff, on 22 April 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

Or an MWO capable Viper-U. Too bad it has a hatchet and storage tanks.

Can't be worth much, judging by Kingfisher bias. It's basically the same argument: There is a set tonnage amount that you measure the ECM with. The Hellbringer is a mech I dislike. The Geometry isn't much of an improvement over the chicken walker clan heavies at best, and you're eating extra weight for no reason. IF you can get your 4 tons back, it'd probably be pretty good (PGI plz), but the relative lack of pod space bothers me.

The kingfisher is like the same problem, but like x4 the lost tonnage.

It was the go-to heavy mech over the Timber Wolf and Ebon Jaguar prior to Dec. 1st. That's not my opinion, that is a fact. Its almost like podspace isn't the most important thing?

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Alan Davion, on 22 April 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

I take it you're referring to the Commando, Cataphract, possibly the Locust and Spider as well?

I can't remeber the last time I saw either of those mechs, so no.

Gyrok, on 22 April 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

SDR-5D

RVN-3L

CDA-3M

GRF-2N

AS7-D-DC

You could argue the Pirate's Bane as well...but, it is less relevant than those above.

You consider the Spider 5D relevant?

Aresye, on 22 April 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

If we're going to play that game then go ahead and scrap the Mist Lynx and Kit Fox off the Clan list.

IS still has more.

Yes it does. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with OP, though. If the King Fisher and Turkina come down to a vote, I'll be voting for the King Fisher because it has ECM. (Among other reasons why I think its better to have)

[Gyrok]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 22 April 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

203 IS mechs:
40 lights
60 mediums
52 heavies
51 assaults

Four lights can equip ECM, one behind a paywall.
Two mediums can equip ECM.
Two heavies can equip ECM, one behind paywall.
One assault can equip ECM.

9 / 203 == 4.43% ECM saturation

92 Clan mechs:
21 lights
24 mediums
24 heavies
23 assaults

Three clan lights come with ECM, up to thirteen can equip it.
One clan medium comes with ECM, up to four can equip it.
One clan heavy comes with ECM, up to three can equip it.
No clan assaults can equip ECM.

20 / 92 == 21.74% ECM saturation

More relevant is by chassis, not variant...

The omnimech "advantage" inflates that number....and besides...that is a bit pretentious, because it assumes that the 4 variants of ACH would actually have different hardpoint options, etc. The reality is all 4 would run beam spam...

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Gyrok, on 22 April 2016 - 01:34 PM, said:

It was good...make no mistake...I never said it was bad...

It was the best hill peeking heavy for sure...

Now, with ECM being much less relevant, and the weapons nerfed to hell...plus the uber quirked IS mechs on the other side. Is it a good mech? Sure...it certainly is not terrible...but it is pretty far from being a top tier comp mech. It is less durable than any of the quirked heavy mechs you are bound to see from IS, and it does not have an advantage in firepower, or range to really speak of outside something like the ERLL spam build.

If you are talking about CW...well...sure...you used to be able to drop 4 HBRs. Now...you cannot, so that is probably less appealing once again...however...CW is not really a forum for balance for numerous reasons.

The cLPL wasn't nerfed, and the gauss nerf wasn't really necessary IMO. But the IS quirks need to be dialed back.

I still say stand by that one statement that IS weapons need a roughly 10-15% increase in energy range and need the quirks dialed back (roughly 7 in 10 IS mechs have at least 10% energy range). Quirks are a bit out of hand and wouldn't be needed in the capacity they're used if they'd balance the base stats first.

[Snowbluff]

Gyrok, on 22 April 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

The omnimech "advantage" inflates that number....and besides...that is a bit pretentious, because it assumes that the 4 variants of ACH would actually have different hardpoint options, etc. The reality is all 4 would run beam spam...

20% sounds a bit off in practice or when building, but let me think through this...

100% of Hellbringers, but it's relatively unplayed (regardless of how good it may have been, it's not as good now)
100% of Arctic Cheetahs (The ECM pod come with a high laser mount, so no hardpoint loss)
???% on Mist Lynx, since I don't own one, and I've literally only seen 2 ever (maybe their ecm is that good o.o)
50% Shadow cats? Their ecm costs them some good hardpoints, which they don't have many of.
100% Kit Fox. I only know one pilot who uses it and I don't know what other pod options he uses, but he always pack the ECM.

Edited by Snowbluff, 22 April 2016 - 01:43 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Snowbluff, on 22 April 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

100% of Hellbringers, but it's relatively unplayed (regardless of how good it may have been, it's not as good now)

Its not the best mech in the game anymore, but it is far from unplayed.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Gyrok, on 22 April 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

More relevant is by chassis, not variant...

The omnimech "advantage" inflates that number....and besides...that is a bit pretentious, because it assumes that the 4 variants of ACH would actually have different hardpoint options, etc. The reality is all 4 would run beam spam...

So, one Cheeto fit, one Cute Fox fit?

So we're down to
1 relevant Cheeto
1 relevant Cute fox
4 Badders
4 Jenners
5 Myth Lynxes?

So we went from 9 / 21 to 3 / 15?

For mediums, we went from 4 / 24 to 1 / 21, assuming only "One True Fit" for the Sad Cat.

For heavies, we went 1 of 22 from 3 of 24, also assuming only "One True Fit" for the Helby.

so 5 / 83 gives us 3.61% ECM saturation. Or can we drop the pretentiousness?

[Snowbluff]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

Its not the best mech in the game anymore, but it is far from unplayed.

"Relatively." I've seen a few around. I just see like way more Timbies.

It's a good thing I have obnoxious white tiger stripes on my timbie, because it'd be hard to make out my metal carcass among the four other I see per match. We're like rats, you think you got one, but then there's like 2 more. Logo power!

Edited by Snowbluff, 22 April 2016 - 01:50 PM.

[DjPush]

Stop counting omnipods as mechs. The Arctic Cheetah is one mech. Putting the ECM omnipod on all 3 torso variants, does not mean you have 3 ECM mechs now. It's no different than putting an ERPPC on a Spider 5D instead of 3 Med Pulse.

There are 5 clan mechs with ECM... Not 15.

[Gas Guzzler]

DjPush, on 22 April 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

Stop counting omnipods as mechs. The Arctic Cheetah is one mech. Putting the ECM omnipod on all 3 torso variants, does not mean you have 3 ECM mechs now. It's no different than putting an ERPPC on a Spider 5D instead of 3 Med Pulse.

There are 5 clan mechs with ECM... Not 15.

Let's make it 6!

#KingfisherMWO

[ScarecrowES]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 22 April 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Yes it does. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with OP, though. If the King Fisher and Turkina come down to a vote, I'll be voting for the King Fisher because it has ECM. (Among other reasons why I think its better to have)

Well, for the record, the only version of the Kingfisher that has ECM is also a version that uses future tech not in the game. That's problematic. It still suffers from having 16.5 lost tons due to the standard engine, and that accounts for nearly half of the potential free tonnage of the mech.

Yeah, the Hellbringer lost some potential tonnage in not having Endo, but it makes up for that very minor loss in other ways. I don't see the Kingfisher being able to make up a full 16.5 tons of lost weapons, no matter how it's quirked.

DjPush, on 22 April 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

Stop counting omnipods as mechs. The Arctic Cheetah is one mech. Putting the ECM omnipod on all 3 torso variants, does not mean you have 3 ECM mechs now. It's no different than putting an ERPPC on a Spider 5D instead of 3 Med Pulse.

There are 5 clan mechs with ECM... Not 15.

Nope, sorry... you have to count how many variants have ECM, not chassis. Only 1 of 4 Ravens can have ECM... ALL Cheetahs can have ECM. The Raven 3L has a very specific hardpoint setup that other Ravens don't have. You can make every variant of Cheetah with ECM with different hardpoints. You need to count every variant, not just every chassis.

[Snowbluff]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2016 - 01:54 PM, said:

#KingfisherMWO

You should get hastag signatures like the Madcat Mk II guy made for me. "#Kingfisher-F2016"

Then they can release the Madcat Mk II when they release HAGs.

[FallingAce]

It's about quality, not quantity.
I'd trade every IS light for the artic cheeatah.
I'd take the Hell bringer over the Cataract because of its higher mounts and better maneuverability.

That leaves the cicada, griffen and Atlas as viable mechs.

The OP obviously doesn't play much Faction Warfare. It's not unusual to see 3 clan ecm mechs for every IS ecm mechs. Griffens just became viable for the new scouting mode. You won't see them in 12v12 very often. 100 tons for the Atlas is a hard tradeoff to make. The only ecm mech I normally run is the cicada.


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