102 replies to this topic

[Alan Davion]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2016 - 11:57 AM, said:

The Kingfisher has what you need.

Has more right to ECM than the Cyclops or the Tempest does, and it can bring 61 damage worth of pin point firepower with some high hardpoints.

The Archer Tempest has ECM because of the in lore 'ghost mech' ability displayed by Morgan Kell during his battle with Yorinaga Kurita. MWO ECM is the closest thing there was to that. So there you go.

And the Cyclops... Well that thing has always been as much a command vehicle as an Atlas or something, so it needed at least one variant with ECM.

Point is the Clans still have more capability for ECM than the IS does with the chassis/omnipod interchangeability.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:

This thread is about adding more ECM clan mechs, not about which side is OP.

See above.

[Gas Guzzler]

Alan Davion, on 22 April 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

The Archer Tempest has ECM because of the in lore 'ghost mech' ability displayed by Morgan Kell during his battle with Yorinaga Kurita. MWO ECM is the closest thing there was to that. So there you go.

And the Cyclops... Well that thing has always been as much a command vehicle as an Atlas or something, so it needed at least one variant with ECM.

Point is the Clans still have more capability for ECM than the IS does with the chassis/omnipod interchangeability.



See above.

Tempest: So something that came up a few times in lore equals ECM? Sounds arbitrary to me.

Cyclops: what does being considered a command mech have to do with ECM? Again, an arbitrary add in to make a product look more attractive. The Atlas DDC getting ECM was also an arbitrary add in btw, it just shows that PGI is willing to arbitrarily add ECM to some mechs.

And actually I don't know, 12 mechs in game or announced, where the Clans have what, 5? I don't really care that there are more one side or the other, but I would like a Clan assault with ECM.

[Ted Wayz]

Percentage wise my guess is they are pretty even.

But in CW has clan ever complained about not having enough ECM?

[Deathlike]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

No argument here.

The only ECM mech that finds its way into our drop decks for comp play is the Cheetah though, occasionally some one will think they are smart and sub in a GRF-2N instead of a 3M... Some one needs to CONcede to REGulate things like that on our end.

I see what you did there.

Reported.

[Alan Davion]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

Tempest: So something that came up a few times in lore equals ECM? Sounds arbitrary to me.

Cyclops: what does being considered a command mech have to do with ECM? Again, an arbitrary add in to make a product look more attractive. The Atlas DDC getting ECM was also an arbitrary add in btw, it just shows that PGI is willing to arbitrarily add ECM to some mechs.

And actually I don't know, 12 mechs in game or announced, where the Clans have what, 5? I don't really care that there are more one side or the other, but I would like a Clan assault with ECM.

No offense, but literally every single balance decision that's ever been made in MWO has been arbitrary in some fashion or another.

IS complaining about Clans leads to arbitrary balancing. Clans complaining about IS leads to arbitrary balancing.

Pugs complaining about being stomped by Units leads to arbitrary balancing.

So on and so forth, etc etc, ad infinitum

It's pretty much Standard Operating Procedure at this point.

And until PGI stops listening to all the whiners or the Ultra-Comp-Tier try-hards, and starts actually properly balancing the damned game, it's going to continue being SOP.

[Gas Guzzler]

Alan Davion, on 22 April 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

No offense, but literally every single balance decision that's ever been made in MWO has been arbitrary in some fashion or another.

IS complaining about Clans leads to arbitrary balancing. Clans complaining about IS leads to arbitrary balancing.

Pugs complaining about being stomped by Units leads to arbitrary balancing.

So on and so forth, etc etc, ad infinitum

It's pretty much Standard Operating Procedure at this point.

And until PGI stops listening to all the whiners or the Ultra-Comp-Tier try-hards, and starts actually properly balancing the damned game, it's going to continue being SOP.

Actually the ultra comp tier players understand how the game is balanced better than most of the player base, but that is neither here nor there.

All my point was, is the following.

PGI is willing to create variants of mechs with ECM.
There is no Clan Assault mech with ECM currently. (This is where this thread comes in)
ECM mechs tend to sell.
PGI wants to sell mechs.
The Kingfisher has an ECM variant that has an out of timeline weapons that could easily be swapped for a Gauss Rifle.

Therefore, it is considerably more likely than not that PGI will include an ECM variant if they sell the Kingfisher.

[sycocys]

The list of Clan mechs with ECM can be multiplied by 4 right out of the gate because you can change one pod and fit it on every variant. Then you could consider all the alternate variants you can create through lego-time.

[JigglyMoobs]

Why is ecm even relevant? Why do you need it when everyone has radar derp? Is it actually useful in group play, competition, fw, anything?

[Gas Guzzler]

sycocys, on 22 April 2016 - 06:13 PM, said:

The list of Clan mechs with ECM can be multiplied by 4 right out of the gate because you can change one pod and fit it on every variant. Then you could consider all the alternate variants you can create through lego-time.

Um, to be honest I think this is kind of fishy.. Its like, if you want to show that Clans have more ECM mechs, you say "yeah all the variants have ECM because there is an omni-pod with it". It makes more sense to me to just go by chassis, because most chassis with ECM run the same hardpoint setup on all variants, so its not like they are different mechs with different capabilities.

[Gas Guzzler]

JigglyMoobs, on 22 April 2016 - 06:21 PM, said:

Why is ecm even relevant? Why do you need it when everyone has radar derp? Is it actually useful in group play, competition, fw, anything?

I just want an ECM Kingfisher.

And yeah its somewhat useful, less likely to be lurmed, dont make a dorito every time you poke... its just usually passed up in competitive play for more important things.

[Quintus Verus]

ECM is now much less effective. It wasn't fun in old CW before nerf b/c you knew you were up against at least 12 Hellbringers.

[Gyrok]

Prosperity Park, on 22 April 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

Yes, because Omnis are interchangeable we can say that 5/21 of all the Clan Mechs have ECM, and only 9/203 IS Mechs have ECM.

So ~24% of Clan Mechs are ECM capable, and ~4.5% of IS Mechs are ECM capable.

Going by chassis that have an ECM variant...

Clans are 5/23 counting VPR and KDK ~22%

IS is 12/46 counting PXH and CP ~26%

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

DjPush, on 22 April 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

IS gets about 2 ECM mechs to every clan ECM. The Cyclops is bringing another to the table. So why is that? Is there something in the lore that keeps clans from having ECM?


Clan ECM:

Myst linx
Kit fox
Arctic Cheetah
Shadow Cat
Hellbringer

IS ECM

Locust
Raven
Spider
Commando
Griffon
Cicada
Cataphract
Archer
Atlas
Cyclops

I feel like I'm missing some...

Anyway, when do the clans get an ECM Assault mech. Preferably one that doesn't suck balls and move like a freight train.



Also... NEED MORE CLAN ASSAULT MECHS!... NEED MORE CLAN MECHS PERIOD!

arguably it should just BE an equipment. For any mech to use. It would cut down significantly on the streakcrow issue in FW as well

[Alan Davion]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 22 April 2016 - 06:48 PM, said:

arguably it should just BE an equipment. For any mech to use. It would cut down significantly on the streakcrow issue in FW as well

Not to mention break pretty much all the rules concerning mech construction.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Alan Davion, on 22 April 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

Not to mention break pretty much all the rules concerning mech construction.

That isnt the case now? Where you can stuff a Gauss into a machine gun hole even on standard IS battlemechs? Which as I recall are supposed to be LESS versatile than Omnimechs and here its the opposite.

OTHER than the clan Omnimech mech alteration rules, whjat rules are you referring to exactly? I dont remember a rule from BT saying you cant use certain equipment on certain mechs... But then again I was playing the old box games, so if Catalyst has changed those rules, please, enlighten me.

Not that those rules really MATTER here as this isnt a battletech game, its mechwarrior

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 22 April 2016 - 06:59 PM.

[p4r4g0n]

DjPush, on 22 April 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

IS gets about 2 ECM mechs to every clan ECM. The Cyclops is bringing another to the table. So why is that? Is there something in the lore that keeps clans from having ECM?


Clan ECM:

Myst linx
Kit fox
Arctic Cheetah
Shadow Cat
Hellbringer

IS ECM

Locust
Raven
Spider
Commando
Griffon
Cicada
Cataphract
Archer
Atlas
Cyclops

-snip-

5/1220 vs 10/44

Percentage wise, Clan (41.6625.00%) has more ECM mechs than IS (22.73%) chassis-wise. On top of that, all you need to convert a non-ECM variant to ECM is to just buy a 300+K C-Bill omnipod vs and entirely new mech.

Not seeing how Clans are disadvantaged ECM-wise.

Edit: Calculation

Edited by p4r4g0n, 22 April 2016 - 07:46 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

p4r4g0n, on 22 April 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

5/12 vs 10/44

Percentage wise, Clan (41.66%) has more ECM mechs than IS (22.73%) chassis-wise. On top of that, all you need to convert a non-ECM variant to ECM is to just buy a 300+K C-Bill omnipod vs and entirely new mech.

Not seeing how Clans are disadvantaged ECM-wise.

Also not seeing why this is so construction breaking when you can already do this as clan

[Alan Davion]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 22 April 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

That isnt the case now? Where you can stuff a Gauss into a machine gun hole even on standard IS battlemechs? Which as I recall are supposed to be LESS versatile than Omnimechs and here its the opposite.

OTHER than the clan Omnimech mech alteration rules, whjat rules are you referring to exactly? I dont remember a rule from BT saying you cant use certain equipment on certain mechs... But then again I was playing the old box games, so if Catalyst has changed those rules, please, enlighten me.

Not that those rules really MATTER here as this isnt a battletech game, its mechwarrior

The big problem is trying to translate Table Top rules into a real-time, first person shooter game. I'm sure there were rules to prevent this sort of thing in TT however I've never played either, although I do have the rulebooks off of drivethrurpg, I'd have to actually try and find them.

The reason IS mechs are more versatile here as compared to TT probably go into rules slated more for the MechWarrior RPG than Battletech tabletop wargaming. Here we can just slap whatever the hell we want in a mech, buy it, save it and go fight with it within minutes. In TT though, your mech could be out of action for days to weeks, of real time depending on how you did things, and that made bog standard battlemechs less versatile compared to Omnimechs.

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 22 April 2016 - 07:10 PM, said:

Also not seeing why this is so construction breaking when you can already do this as clan

It's not construction breaking for Clans because they're supposed to be able do that, IS aren't supposed to do that until they start making their own Omnimechs, and as we all know, those early IS Omnis tended to be only slightly better than the bog standard battlemechs they'd been using.

Easier to fix them up and get them back out in the field, yes, but an order of magnitude harder to build in the first place.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Alan Davion, on 22 April 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

It's not construction breaking for Clans because they're supposed to be able do that, IS aren't supposed to do that until they start making their own Omnimechs

Its not construction breaking for IS either as they already HAVE Omnimechs in game right now, they just arent hampered with the use of omnipods. Theres no reason FOR IS to get Omnimechs because the mechs they already have are arguably more flexible than the Omnimechs that the clan already has with one extremely small difference and thats ECM. IS mechs can change anything they want about the mech (minus hardpoints).

You can change the skeleton, the engine, etc. That shouldnt be allowed AT ALL other than by changing the variant you are using. THAT is FAR more construction breaking than giving all mechs access to ECM.

So I dont see the issue.

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 22 April 2016 - 07:39 PM.

[Alan Davion]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 22 April 2016 - 07:36 PM, said:

Its not construction breaking for IS either as they already HAVE Omnimechs in game right now, they just arent hampered with the use of omnipods. Theres no reason FOR IS to get Omnimechs because the mechs they already have are arguably more flexible than the Omnimechs that the clan already has with one extremely small difference and thats ECM. IS mechs can change anything they want about the mech (minus hardpoints).

You can change the skeleton, the engine, etc. That shouldnt be allowed AT ALL other than by changing the variant you are using. THAT is FAR more construction breaking than giving all mechs access to ECM.

So I dont see the issue.

It might just be the fact that I'm tired as hell and about to go crawl into bed, but it sounds to me like you're trying to give the Clans an absurd advantage that may or may not utterly destroy this game.

The only way to do what you are asking, which I'd highlighted in bold, would be to remove the whole construction mechanic from the game and enforce a complete "Stock Only" mode.

Which admittedly that would probably fix quite a few balance problems for the game, but you would open up a literal crap-ton more problems because probably 75% of IS mechs would be rendered completely useless, especially when it comes to fighting the Clans.

As I said, I'm tired as hell at the time of writing this, which is 11:57 PM Eastern US, so take what I say with a grain of salt.