141 replies to this topic

[bLeeat]

Dino Might, on 27 April 2016 - 06:44 PM, said:

The main reason peek and poke builds dominate PUG games is because you can't rely on your team to push with you. A coordinated push will completely destroy the peek and poke team every time, but that coordinated push never happens with 12 random people who don't know or trust each other to have anybody's back. So, how to get the best results when you have no faith in the other 11 guys? Play a build best suited to solo operations - peek and poke, high alpha build. That has the minimum reliance on team play.

It's an issue with the players, not the game.

not the games fault? if a new player wants to level up mechs and stock up his mech bays how does he do this? by making c-bills and gxp? how to make cbills and xp? by doing the only thing this game rewards you for... cheese build and damage....i'v actually went down in psr with only a few narcs and hardly any damage, even tho i didnt die and my team won.

[Isolani]

I don't find tier 2 to be much different than other tiers to be honest. People can aim better, and people tend to use better mechs/builds than in lower tiers, but I still see mechs that aren't considered top tier and you can still do fine with those mechs if you are competent at playing them. There is still nascar and all the other things people complain about in lower tiers.

Most matches are not even close, something like 12-4 or so is probably around average. Maybe 12-6. I should start keeping track just to get an idea what the average is.

When games are won/lost by that much, it doesn't make much difference what I do in most matches. Either the matchmaker gives me a team that is so good, I could do nothing and they would still win. Or the matchmaker puts all the derps, myself included, on the same team and we have no chance of winning. Close games are uncommon.

On good teams, my game play is irrelevant. On bad teams, I would have to get 6+ kills to even make the game close, and I'm not that good most games. Tier 3 was pretty much the same way though.

[LordNothing]

it started out really good but then the last couple days have been my least favorite kind of play: sit around do nothing. its not that im loosing, im getting an even spread of wins and losses, its just the play is terrible and its not even the weekend.

[bLeeat]

LordNothing, on 28 April 2016 - 02:10 AM, said:

it started out really good but then the last couple days have been my least favorite kind of play: sit around do nothing. its not that im loosing, im getting an even spread of wins and losses, its just the play is terrible and its not even the weekend.

i'v noticed you in my last few games, and iif you actually played the game instead of sitting around behind ur team mates, you would prolly score higher.

[LordNothing]

bLeeat, on 28 April 2016 - 02:18 AM, said:

i'v noticed you in my last few games, and iif you actually played the game instead of sitting around behind ur team mates, you would prolly score higher.

that was probibly that one game where i was getting the 2x bonus on the one lrm medium im working on leveling. and frankly when the team lacks aggression, running point usually gets me killed. ive had a lot of those games tonight.

[Carl Vickers]

LordNothing, on 28 April 2016 - 02:10 AM, said:

it started out really good but then the last couple days have been my least favorite kind of play: sit around do nothing. its not that im loosing, im getting an even spread of wins and losses, its just the play is terrible and its not even the weekend.

It does seem to be that way. I notice a lot of players just playing the poke game instead of anything else. Then the other team balls up and rolls us. Slightly frustrating.

[Jun Watarase]

I find it dissapointing that in tier 2, I still see a lot of players doing weird things like going in 1 by 1 into a massive choke point and getting focused fired down.

I mean...by the time you have played enough games to get into tier 2, you should know thats not something you do...

[QuantumButler]

For me I haven't really noticed any difference between tier 2 and tier 3, or indeed tier 4 if I'm honest.

But I mostly play in group queue so that's probably a factor.

Still get idiots who like to take their slow assault lance to the farthest conquest point in conquest to cap instead of letting our fast movers grab points while they fight, or chuckleheads running lrm 5x4 2 erll 1 machinegun Atlas S' tier builds.

[Lehmund]

The way PSR is calculated, you'll progress towards where your skill level is compared to other pilots, and once there, you'll inch your way forward higher.

Unlike an ELO rating system, as what is used in chess, it doesn't keep you where you should be, it pushes you up slightly on average even though you should stay where you are.

In some cases, that math will mean some players will end up playing against players of a higher tier where their skill level is less than the average in a match (depending on population, availability of tier people at that time for MM etc...) in particular for people that have been playing for a long time (# matches).

Essentially, if that is the case, you'll be playing against people that are in the same boat as you and against players that are ACTUALLY at that skill level at that exact point in time.

It would be better if PGI would implement a balanced PSR rating that would place you in the exact skill level spot in the population where you belong, i.e. if you're a rank 3 pilot, you are rank 3, if you are a rank 1 skill pilot, you are in rank 1.

In any case, my 28+ years gaming has taught me that the higher the tier, the most likely you'll be playing against skill, "meta builds" and competitive players who will min/max for advantages.

Since MWO is structured so that pilot skill as well as mech building are valid skills to do well, in higher tiers, you'll see both better pilots and min/maxed mechs.

Solution for PGI: Implement a PSR system that does the same job as ELO ratings to put pilots in the right skill strata.

Solution for players: Pilot and build mechs that will be both enjoyable and perform well, then work with your team to take advantage of the mix of mechs you have in matches.

That is all.

[Lugh]

Prosperity Park, on 27 April 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

Yeah, many of us can do fine in "non-meta builds" but this thread is based on a request to curtail long-range weapon effectiveness in order to force people into brawling loadouts since they are not good enough to hold their own against people who mount what they want to mount.

Which is an incorrect supposition based upon bad map knowledge and or poor maneuvering in the early game. It is VERY possible to brawl on absolutely ALL the maps in this game, regardless of what Mech you are in. Yes it takes coordination to get the team to protect you on some maps as a fatty but it can be done.

[Lugh]

All they need to do keep people playing is give them a LOT of something Little.

For instance, War Thunder crew skills. They have skills that impact all aspects of game play from repair times in game and out of game (you can let your units sit and be repaired based on the crews repair skills over time so you never have to pay rearm costs), to range finding and weapon accuracy(each chassis has it's own built in control troubles based on yaw, mobility etc that make the reticule stray from normal while on the move these skills make it easier to fire on the move), Driving skills help determine how quickly your tank can turn, change direction etc. The skills here would be devoted to removing hiccups that happen when you slam in to a wall at 80kph. Give the mech a pause of 1 second each time that happens, make piloting reduce that time down to as low as .25 seconds and suddenly you have mechs that DO care about whether or not they are running in to things.

Tanks in WT also collide with one another, sometimes they do damage sometimes they do not, they have calculations in place that compare tonnages and angles of impact and speeds (I've killed people by slamming in to them at high speed accidentally friend and foe). It also makes your aiming reticule bounce.
--- Collide with another mech and arms go akimbo, torso too as the gyros adjust to avoid the fall. The fall never has to happen but giving you a 1.5 second window where convergence is hard m'kay reduceable to .5 seconds or so and suddenly you have a Gunnery skill that means something.

Reintroduce repair and rearm. Give your pilot and 'ground crew' a "repair skill". This skill will mitigate in game damage to some small extent. Each mech could have 'upgrades' associated with repair and getting to optimal performance in a tree of their own. One of those 'upgrades' in WT is "parts" This lets your crew do things like repair (in 30 seconds or less for FUN) things like blown out tracks, or blown out gun barrels(you get two goes without being a on capture point). Here, you introduce GYRO damage. Arm gyros freeze the arm, leg gyros the leg (half speed movement), center gyros lock the torso to where they were looking when the damage occurred. With parts you pull back and are able to repair the damaged gyros.
--weapons could then behave more according to TT as well. Your Gauss got blown out early? Retreat and repair. Your UAC jammed and it's now locked for the rest of the match(2.9% rate) stop and REPAIR to restore it to operation.
---if you are a capture point and holding it you can also repair disabled weapons and replenish ammo supplies (ticking up at one count of more whatever per second or something)
---You cannot ever repair damaged ARMOR in game. Only in mechlab.

You now have damaged mechs that need repair. You can repair INSTANTLY (because fun) at a nominal but not cost prohibitive cost or you can set the mech aside and let the crew repair in over time. Mechlab would need a countdown time to TTR.

This same mechanism will also allow you to properly address 'unfun' refit times. Instead of the weeks and months that TT rules called for on a refit. You boil those figures down to minutes. So complete refits of mechs cane be done, but some of them (like and endosteel upgrade for a mech that didn't have it ) might take 30 minutes and with a high repair and rearm skill associated to your account might get as low as 10minutes?

Just some thoughts. And yes Russ needs to hire me as one of his idea guys.

[wanderer]

Quote

The way PSR is calculated, you'll progress towards where your skill level is compared to other pilots, and once there, you'll inch your way forward higher.

And the eventual result of this is vastly incompetent players placed in ever-increasing numbers in T1 (having already clogged T3 and are on their way to doing the same in T2.).

[Felicitatem Parco]

wanderer, on 28 April 2016 - 12:39 PM, said:

And the eventual result of this is vastly incompetent players placed in ever-increasing numbers in T1 (having already clogged T3 and are on their way to doing the same in T2.).

If your W/L ratio remains around 50/50 as you progress, then you should be going up in Tier. Remaining at 50/50 means you are gaining skill (remember, you are fighting more and more experienced players as you progress) because you are holding your own as the competition gets more stringent.

[wanderer]

The facepalming results in both builds and activity I see at T3 screams otherwise. Also, since the PSR system carries bad and good upwards equally, there's more than enough scrubs to continue the entire trend, as the same mediocre players will rise in tier as you do, presenting an ever-more-muddled mass of the carriers and the carried crawling to T1.

Given the system inevitably pushes players up tiers, the only possible end result given regular play is the people you beat will end up playing in your tier again- sooner or later, without actually improving.

[SHIN BRODAMA]

wanderer, on 28 April 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

The facepalming results in both builds and activity I see at T3 screams otherwise. Also, since the PSR system carries bad and good upwards equally, there's more than enough scrubs to continue the entire trend, as the same mediocre players will rise in tier as you do, presenting an ever-more-muddled mass of the carriers and the carried crawling to T1.

I'm not sure how accurate your statement is because i'm new, but my experience has been different. I started playing in January '16 and have moved up to tier 2, slowly grinding my way to tier 1. I play mainly in group queue with two IRL friends, but they take a different approach to the game (not interested in the meta mechs or meta builds, they play to have fun the way they want to). As a result we are 2 tiers apart despite playing in the same matches, for the same length of time.

I can see why this is b/c in most losses i'm still contributing enough to get an '=' at the end for PSR, and often contributing enough for PSR to still go up in a loss. In any given match that ends in a loss I think there are maybe 3-4 players on the losing side that don't see their PSR drop. In super lopsided matches (of which I admit there have been a lot in solo q group 2 lately) it's likely only 1 or 2 people that aren't taking a PSR hit.

[jaxjace]

If you think you are going to have more fun when you get up here you are wrong, all you tier 2s ******* enjoy yourselves while you can.

[Gaussfather]

Hi Jazzbandit,

I can totally relate to your post. I don't play meta... as the name suggests I like guns... guns require more skill than lasers... but not as much as SRMs Hat's off to those good SRM players who leg me.... the game has unfortunately devolved to laser vomit builds... especially since Clan mechs arrived. And why not, PGI nerfed their ballistics and they have so many laser hardpoints who can blame them for using them?

But as for game play I don't find it as fun as when I could run around in Victors and Highlanders using 2 UAC5s and get several kills in a match (that was like 2 years ago). The MWO business model encourages a kind of "cold war" arms race... but quirks decreased diversity in the builds and the competitive players just went immediately to builds that maximized alphas and frankly required less ability to aim at a distance.

Its no wonder that in CW you rarely see PPC builds (except for that time that Thunderbolt PPC builds ruled)... they are too hot and you have to actually lead your target.

So all I can say is stay in Tier 3 like me I run AC20 "Hero" decks in CW and just have fun firing big guns. I used to have Gauss decks but since they have been nerfed so much you need to run 2 in a mech to have a fighting chance. But I really love UAC5s... probably my favorite weapon. I'd be the UAC5father but it sounds silly as nickname. LOL

Edited by Gaussfather, 29 April 2016 - 12:27 AM.

[Tarogato]

@OP


Reasons we need a proper city map that encourages people to bring brawling loadouts.

[Shazarad]

Jazzbandit1313, on 26 April 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

The tier system was implemented quite some time ago if I remember correctly. I haven't moved up by a decent amount at all, maybe a few pixels or so. However, my statistics have only been improving, things like K/D, W/L.

Something else to note, and I think anyone in low-mid tier two will agree, is that the builds being run and the play-style being used is utter meta crap and it pisses the living hell out of me.

In 13/15 of my matches tonight, I had at least 30-40% or more of my armor stripped off from 600M out or further. Yes, you could use the argument that I'm a dumb player who doesn't know how to use cover. But no, not valid. Anyone that's played a game with me or watch me play knows that I know better than to peek a stalker with 6ERLL at 800M or something like that.

Three things that are problematic in my eyes:

The more competitive the games get due to the tier system, the more meta people will be loading their mechs with (I.E. gauss, erll, erppc, lpl, lrm) and the more saturated the tier will become with meta vomit builds that rely on perks that amplify damage at extreme ranges, while I'm sitting behind a rock with my SRM's and AC/20's, bored as the rock I'm standing behind.

Map design nowadays, such as Plexus, encourage peek and alpha gameplay that ruins the game for a lot of people. How do you think a new player feels, peeking out from a corner to fire at the enemy and getting 25% of his armor bursted off before he can even begin backing his mech up?

The obvious part here is the standard "Super low TTK and Convergence make this game crap", to which I would agree to some extent, sadly. low TTK, as a result of various balancing 'fixes' and the absolutely broken convergence mechanic only encourage people to run these bursty, peekaboo builds that are killing brawling as a style of play. This wouldn't be so bad if PGI gave some buffs to the brawlers and the ways in which they cover from the rain or vomit, but we haven't seen a significant boost to brawler's power since Ilya Muromets, in my opinion.

Do I think the game sucks? No. I love MWO and I've been playing for over three years now, and I won't stop anytime soon. I do however feel as though some changes need to be made to the long range/peekaboo/alpha-only style of gameplay that is, at least in tier two, ruining the game for me and many others from what I've witnessed.

Hell, even if you don't re-balance anything PGI, at least give me the god damn option to lower my tier.

I would gladly manually lower myself to tier 3 or 4 to experience more brawls and balanced, mixed-loadout gameplay, because that's what made me fall in love with this game.



Thoughts?



******************************* Adding this to make my point more clear:


And let's be clear, I really don't care about tier or rank in any video game for that matter. I am a Nova 4 in CSGO, which isn't a particularly high rank, but I don't pay attention to it because I have fun in the matches I'm placed in.

My point isn't "Wah Wah I wanna be tier 1 PGI change the game for me", it's "I'm having a kinda crappy experience and I think it has mostly to do with the tier system and the ways in which it brings out the most meta/frustrating parts of the game"

This is quite possibly the most unscientific and heavily biased complaint about Tier 2 I've ever seen. I'm going to play devil's advocate here because its entirely too easy for you to just make assumptions and then agree with your own perceptions of reality. Here's an example of how silly you could sound.

My experience in Tier 2 has had nothing of what you speak of and is mostly brawl focused. I have good matches 90% of the time and long range snipers are hardly an issue.I think TTK is just right and convergence is good. Therefore, I am going to conclude, without any bias at all, that Tier 2 is just fine and an enjoyable experience.

Now, let me tell you my actual experience:

Tiers are unimportant and don't matter in the grand scheme. I'm able to get matches quickly, and there's a huge variety of how games unfold. No two matches are the same and I like that. I can take whatever build I want and do well in them. Matches are all about testing yourself. Tier 1-5, doesn't matter what you're matched up against, you should only care about improving yourself and your skills whether on a win or a loss. If you use what you consider a non-meta build, solace yourself with the fact with how well you can do in a non-meta build while everyone else has to use meta builds to do well. That should be your ultimate challenge. Test yourself, better yourself.

[Widowmaker1981]

Shazarad, on 29 April 2016 - 01:09 AM, said:

Tiers are unimportant and don't matter in the grand scheme. I'm able to get matches quickly, and there's a huge variety of how games unfold. No two matches are the same and I like that. I can take whatever build I want and do well in them. Matches are all about testing yourself. Tier 1-5, doesn't matter what you're matched up against, you should only care about improving yourself and your skills whether on a win or a loss. If you use what you consider a non-meta build, solace yourself with the fact with how well you can do in a non-meta build while everyone else has to use meta builds to do well. That should be your ultimate challenge. Test yourself, better yourself.

Accurate, but if OP was being honest he would have said this:

"I want to short range brawl with SRMs and AC20s. Its the way real men play, and all other playstyles should be inferior. Being hurt by longer range weapons than i have is completely unacceptable, despite the fact that if i get into range unhurt i will always win against those builds.

This used to be fine when i was in T4 and no one could hit the broad side of an Atlas from 400m away, but now people seem to have gained the ability to aim, and i keep dying when i walk across open fields to brawl with the enemy. UNACCEPTABLE! I have to .. like.. use cover and stuff now, thats not how real men play this game! PGIPLS!"

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 29 April 2016 - 01:47 AM.