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Regarding A Common Argument Against Cof Suggestions

Weapons HUD Loadout

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#121 Mystere

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 08:46 PM

View PostFupDup, on 30 April 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

Pulses and ACs wouldn't be good in short range anymore since they would have to stand still to hit, while SRMs could hit multiple body parts regardless of having a cone or not having a cone.


Hold on a second! Unless you're talking about 30/60/90-degree shot deviations, pulse lasers and ACs will still hit on target. Posted Image

Or is this the same exaggerated logic regularly applied to all CoF discussions by those against it?

Edited by Mystere, 01 May 2016 - 09:22 PM.


#122 wanderer

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 08:48 PM

Apparently, most people think any deviation from pixel-on-target will result in shots spraying like a drunken teenager attempting to control a SAW at maximum rate of fire.

#123 Mystere

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 09:02 PM

Please, don't start with this:

View Postoldradagast, on 01 May 2016 - 06:22 AM, said:

Groundless assumptions much?


and then end with:

View Postoldradagast, on 01 May 2016 - 06:22 AM, said:

It makes me laugh how people want more Lore and respect for the original rules in the game, but they also want pixel-perfect long-range damage and endless alphas, which is anathema to tabletop's game mechanics and Lore. You can't have both.



Now back to your regularly-scheduled CoF discussion.

Edited by Mystere, 01 May 2016 - 09:07 PM.


#124 Lostdragon

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 09:37 PM

View PostFupDup, on 01 May 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

Those "rapid fire" BT Autocannons always allocated their damage into a single hit location. For example, a "burst" from an AC/20 always dealt 20 damage to one spot, never spread.


Which is exactly why Clan ACs are burst fire in MWO and IS ACs probably will be one day. Burst fire effectively replaces a CoF for these weapons and prevents instagibbing. Burst fire limits AC effectiveness in the same way a CoF system could limit the effectiveness of large alpha strikes of any weapon type.

#125 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 09:43 PM

View PostTarl Cabot, on 01 May 2016 - 06:34 PM, said:

I would start with Heat Scale, followed by increasing cooldown timer of ERLL/LPL/ERppc (also increase their velocity) to bring them closer to Gauss Rifle. They are pulling lots of power off the engine and require a longer cooling off period for the components themselves.

Heat Scale - 2-3 intermediate intervals where the mech is hit with movement penalty similar to the loss of a side torso w/cXL (that movement penalty would be removed from cXL ST loss). Example 33%/66% intervals w/ 15/30% loss. Another planyer posted about having weapon cooldown penalty where it is increased the hotter the mech is running.

Change in Ghost heat. Instead of a big hit when a set of specific weapons are fired, change it to micro-Ghost heat that kicks in when more than one weapon is fired.

A few mentioned it would mean more poke and shoot, but those penalties would also mean the mech would be slower getting back into hiding. And an increased in the long range energy cooldown would also provide med/close range mechs more time to move from one location to another before those weapons could be fired.

I also agree on the AC velocity increase. They were decreased when ballistic ranges were 3x, but that was changed to 2x and the nerf to jump jets went live, the velocities were never set back to previous velocities.


All a heat system does is increase the delay between huge *** PPFLD alphas, it doesnt fix the issue of being able to reliably place huge alphas in the same spot, melting targets.

A Heat scale change would be nice to add, but heat alone and CD alone does not fix the issue, it just adds a longer delay.

Its pretty much like WoT and the FV183, it melts 1 tank every 20s, rather then like an Arty which melts a tank every 40s.

A CoF mechanic based on targeting system, targeting computers, controlled fire discipline and motion would be best. Make the base CoF like 1m CoF at 1000m. That is a 3.28 foot deviation at 1000m, which is pretty much max range in this game.

From there, if you are stationary, it reduces your CoF bloom by 15%, if you have your target lit up with "R", you lose another 15%, if you have a targeting computer, that is another 10%, if you get the "Pinpoint skill" you lose another 5%. If you fire just 1 weapon at a time, with a 0.5s delay, you will not incur any additional bloom on your shot. You gain 5% bloom per weapon fired, up from w/e the weapon's base COF is.

I would not suggest making it like the BF3 LMGs, where you cant hit anything with them, but enough to kinda discourage huge *** alphas.

Movement would be like 2.5% CoF increase per 10kph, so a light moving at 100kph would incur a 25% penalty to their CoF, in addition to the size of the burst and the weapon they fire.

Ultimately, I envision a system that does not make shots wildly fly all over the screen like a hipfire M60 in BF3, but rather something that you might miss slightly, or spread your shots across the target if you decide to alpha and move alot.

I would include systems where you could reduce the CoF slightly, but also penalties that would increase the bloom. There would be alot more skill involved in managing your systems, between heat, movement, trigger control, and all of the above. it could give more validity to a Targeting computer as well. Starting from the MK1 to the MK7: 5%, 7%, 10%, 13.5%, 16%, 20%, 25%, just as example. They would be a constant boost to all factors that affect bloom, almost might make them a sorta mandatory system on mechs.

You all see the Catapult on the forum background? I dont envision a system that spreads more then the torso section of that Catapult's image at 1000m. At sub 500m ranges, you might get shots that hit LT when you aimed at the CT or the LA when you aimed at the LT, but nothing like WoT, where you aim at the center of the tank from 100m and hit the moon.

#126 wanderer

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 10:02 PM

View PostFupDup, on 01 May 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

Those "rapid fire" BT Autocannons always allocated their damage into a single hit location. For example, a "burst" from an AC/20 always dealt 20 damage to one spot, never spread.


On the other hand, those rapid fire BT AC's also didn't allocate their damage to the -same- hit location each time, which is something they are most certainly far, far more capable of doing in MWO. Honestly, the capacity of a weapon to put 100% of it's damage reliably on a single hit location reduces effective lifespan regardless of weapon system, which is why LB-X's and such are junk compared to a laser or conventional/Ultra AC to begin with.

Weapons that auto-spread damage should, by their nature be given something to compensate for being unable to do the most critical role in the game- put all the damage in one spot. Spread is a big part of what makes an LB-X 20 inferior compared to an AC/20 in most combats, an LB-5X weaker than an Ultra/5, and so on.

#127 ComradeHavoc

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 12:13 PM

http://mwomercs.com/...try-this-again/

#128 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 12:38 PM

High heat causing CoF? Fine. Makes sense, no skill removed, just heat management becomes more important.

CoF with no lock? Hmmm, giga buff to ECM mechs, and if ECM is reworked so that it no longer denies the dorito, then its going to be fairly worthless and i don't trust PGI to compensate mechs like the HBR and SHC with quirks to make up for losing it.. maybe.

CoF when outside optimal range? No... that means CoF all the time, basically. You dont get to choose engagement range down to the meter.. maybe with a 100m +/- window around optimal.

CoF when moving? NO. NO. shooting accurately while moving fast is a skill. When you are worse at shooting on the move, you slow down/stop to shoot first and it makes you an easier target. Removing the ability does remove skill.

#129 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 12:44 PM

View Postwanderer, on 01 May 2016 - 10:02 PM, said:


Weapons that auto-spread damage should, by their nature be given something to compensate for being unable to do the most critical role in the game- put all the damage in one spot. Spread is a big part of what makes an LB-X 20 inferior compared to an AC/20 in most combats, an LB-5X weaker than an Ultra/5, and so on.


LBX are shotguns. The reason people use shotguns in FPS games is they do loads of damage up front, at a cost of being useless at range. Imo they should increase the damage per pellet to 1.4 or 1.5 and tweak from there. Make them hit HARD up close.

#130 Mystere

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 12:56 PM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 03 May 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

LBX are shotguns. The reason people use shotguns in FPS games is they do loads of damage up front, at a cost of being useless at range. Imo they should increase the damage per pellet to 1.4 or 1.5 and tweak from there. Make them hit HARD up close.


Alternatively, make them ignore armor and instead do internal damage. <maniacal Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image>

#131 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 01:03 PM

View PostMystere, on 03 May 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

Alternatively, make them ignore armor and instead do internal damage. <maniacal Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image>


no, like most of your suggestions, that is deliberately absurd.

#132 dwwolf

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 01:07 PM

View PostDavers, on 01 May 2016 - 06:36 AM, said:


I am guessing that people who like Battletech will leave and people who like FPS will stay and then maybe everyone will be happy? :P

I asked you once, and you never responded- how much deviation off target are we talking about? I fire my CERPPC at a target 810m away; how many meters will my shot be off?


Personally I think a 3 sigma variance = 2 meter @ optimal range to be a good starting point. Riding the shutdown limit 2.3 meter...running as well ? 2.53 meter. Active target lock from your self or friendly scouts ? Lower it again. Targetting computer ? Lower again.
Weapon damaged but not destroyed ? Oops, higher variance.

Note that its a normal distribution with the highest frequencies near the center of the aiming point.
68% falling in <1 sigma, 95% < 2 sigma, and 99.7% < 3 sigma





#133 Barantor

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 01:31 PM

View Postwanderer, on 01 May 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

Apparently, most people think any deviation from pixel-on-target will result in shots spraying like a drunken teenager attempting to control a SAW at maximum rate of fire.


Actually a SAW on it's maximum rate of fire is very controllable....

If you support the weapon and/or use the bipod
Use a foregrip or have a good hold with your offhand
Bring the buttstock into your shoulder correctly

Last time I used one I could ace anything I could with my M16A2, but if you tried to fire it from your hip or from your shoulder standing up it was a real crap shoot like most games have it.

The ARMA series of games has the best representation of firing weapons IRL imo.

#134 wanderer

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 01:39 PM

Quote

LBX are shotguns. The reason people use shotguns in FPS games is they do loads of damage up front, at a cost of being useless at range. Imo they should increase the damage per pellet to 1.4 or 1.5 and tweak from there. Make them hit HARD up close.


LB-Xs in BT aren't- cluster ammo is more like a flak gun, with the round detonating into submunitons when in proximity to the target.

An LB-X doesn't have a diminishing damage profile unless you're PGI, in which case you just make it a shotgun.

Quote

Actually a SAW on it's maximum rate of fire is very controllable....


Please, hand one to a fratboy after a dozen or so beers and see how he does without instructions. :)

#135 Mystere

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 01:58 PM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 03 May 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

no, like most of your suggestions, that is deliberately absurd.


And yet we have 3PV, UAVs, 4x4 scouting mode, and devastating Long Toms. Posted Image

One of the things next on my list is "convergence on target lock". Posted Image

Edited by Mystere, 03 May 2016 - 02:00 PM.


#136 Felicitatem Parco

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 02:21 PM

Guys... Let's not try to link Lore and TT rules together.

There is no way in hell that a Burst Fire AC/20 that fires many shots over the course of 10 seconds will land every single round in the burst on a single enemy component every time you use it, especially when the enemy is running around in combat maneuvers. Remember, the range of Autocannons is dependent on the recoil they generate and the inherent inaccuracy said recoil generates. Busts of AC rounds would spread in reality; only a single slug system would deliver all damage to a single component.

So, either Lore is bunk, or single-component damage AC is bunk. Take your pick.

#137 Targetloc

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 03:17 PM

View PostFupDup, on 30 April 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

The reason I listed "long optimal range" was specifically to have accuracy out to long enough of a distance for most fights. Weapons with 600+ meters optimal would be ideal for this.

In order for the brawler mechs to get in close, they have to move. If they move, their shots won't hit anymore, so that means they have a big pocket of time where they just get hammered by pinpoint accurate fire.

Alternatively, if/when they do get close, then SRMs will be the king of all short-range weapons because their natural spread counteracts the effects of the cone. Pulses and ACs wouldn't be good in short range anymore since they would have to stand still to hit, while SRMs could hit multiple body parts regardless of having a cone or not having a cone. SRMs are already good and meta, and this would get rid of some of the competition for short-ranged weapons.


Keep in mind, the entire hook of pulse lasers in the original game was that they are more accurate than regular lasers. They have a shorter max range, but at mid range that's the reason you consider paying the extra tonnage. For the first time ever in a MW game the medium pulse laser might be worth considering over the standard medium.

That's also the entire draw behind ER Large Lasers. They have always been terrible compared to regular larges because you don't get the accuracy bonus so you pay a ton of extra heat for a negligible increase in max range.

SRMs currently do higher damage than specified in the TRO... if they introduced different accuracy to different weapons they would probably tone SRMs down again. It would be a massive rebalancing effort but there would be another dial to tune that would also help differentiate weapons systems. (UAC's also become less accurate when double-tapped, which would help balance higher damage delt vs less concentrated on a single section)

#138 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 03:18 PM

Quote

... Let's not try to link Lore and TT rules together.

There is no way in hell that a Burst Fire AC/20 that fires many shots over the course of 10 seconds will land every single round in the burst on a single enemy component every time you use it, especially when the enemy is running around in combat maneuvers.....


Agree, it is funny when people do pipe up that a weapon is being fired over 10secs just cause the base boardgame was 10sec rounds to do EVERYTHING. For ease of play weapon fires occurred after movement.

The same company later also came out with a more detailed boardgame based on 2.5sec rounds. Weapons do not fire over 10secs (5 rounds) but they did add cooldown/weapon delays that help better simulate what actions could be performed. A pilot could only fire 1 weapon or 1 TIC (weapon grouping). To change/alter TICs, so remove a ERPPC off of TIC 1 and place it on TIC 3. TIC 1 now has just 2 ERPPC on it. No weapons fire during turn where TICS being modified.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 03 May 2016 - 03:34 PM.


#139 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 03:33 PM

Quote

All a heat system does is increase the delay between huge *** PPFLD alphas, it doesnt fix the issue of being able to reliably place huge alphas in the same spot, melting targets.

A Heat scale change would be nice to add, but heat alone and CD alone does not fix the issue, it just adds a longer delay.


It is a starting point though, an actual and effective heat scale has the ability to change a player's behavior/load out. Having a big heat/cooldown alpha has to negative effect of what happens when the enemy gets close, similar to LRM boats? Or do I mix things up to give myself backup weapons that are cooler and recycle faster or stick to the big guns?

As for bloom/COF, MWO should have a small one, where at long range it would be more difficult to hit a specific body part, med range, such as torso area, chance for firing multiple weapons to have them hit adjacent areas if close to that line, at close range no difference unless ya at the outer edge.

I would even go as far as having torso mounted weapons have very little bloom/COF where as arm mounted would be affected more. But PGI would also need to allow, esp for humanoid mechs, the ability to actually RAISE their arms from the crotch position temporarily.

MWO is a work in progress, and there is lots that PGI can do to make mechs play/fight better in the type of terrain that the game does have, to give it a better feel.

#140 wanderer

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 07:09 PM

View PostProsperity Park, on 03 May 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

Guys... Let's not try to link Lore and TT rules together.

There is no way in hell that a Burst Fire AC/20 that fires many shots over the course of 10 seconds will land every single round in the burst on a single enemy component every time you use it, especially when the enemy is running around in combat maneuvers. Remember, the range of Autocannons is dependent on the recoil they generate and the inherent inaccuracy said recoil generates. Busts of AC rounds would spread in reality; only a single slug system would deliver all damage to a single component.

So, either Lore is bunk, or single-component damage AC is bunk. Take your pick.


Some stuff does make sense, however.

In TT, damage is kept from being focused by damage spread, courtesy of random hit locations.

In MWO, damage is kept from being focused by damage spread (burn time, burst fire, "shotgun spread" and even random damage ala Streaks)- and becomes broken when it's not spread enough.

MWO uses a different mechanic to achieve similar results.





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