482 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Xhaleon, on 02 May 2016 - 12:08 AM, said:

Alright, I see what you meant. Still the BK is at the top of the heavy heap for good reasons even though its hardpoints are mounted so low. The efficiency of its typical laser loadouts would speak for themselves even if it didn't have those quirks. It can also keep up that kind of attack combo at full speed up until the third round where it starts to overheat. Could be a few seconds of difference that can shift the balance the other way, it's just a thought experiment for now.

Without its heat gen quirk I'm not sure if it could alpha twice even without shutting down. Black Knight is a top heavy for sure, but there are situations where it's at a significant disadvantage (a potent SRM brawling heavy would have its number in a brawl).

[Xhaleon]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 12:15 AM, said:

Without its heat gen quirk I'm not sure if it could alpha twice even without shutting down. Black Knight is a top heavy for sure, but there are situations where it's at a significant disadvantage (a potent SRM brawling heavy would have its number in a brawl).

With certain mechs that are super specialized for brawling the BK has a good chance to lose, but I think the question when it comes to game balance is whether a certain loadout or playstyle is consistently more effective in more situations than others.

[Musashi Alexander]

They need to worry less about balancing and more about new content and freshening up game play. Balance is fine. Some new content and gameplay has been added and that's a good start

[Clownwarlord]

I disagree with everything the original poster has stated. I believe a power drawl system will help get rid of alpha warrior which in my opinion is not battletech or mechwarrior. I also believe by using a power drawl system you will force a longer time to kill and by doing this will increase match length and ultimately better matches.

Alpha warrior is for noobs. (Anyone can get in a direstar and one shot someone.)

[LordKnightFandragon]

Xhaleon, on 01 May 2016 - 11:11 PM, said:

We don't know exactly how spooky mechanics 2.0 is going to work, so there is no use complaining about it yet.

So as long as it curbs the effectiveness (-over-time) of alpha vomit builds without actually preventing them from being used, I would have no problem with it. A cooldown penalty would be pretty universal, as opposed to laser duration.

So this new system is just going to delay the alpha strike, rather then kinda curb their use?

SO instead of every 4s, 60 dmg, its going to simply be every 8s 60 dmg?

[Karl Streiger]

Captain Luffy, on 02 May 2016 - 12:34 AM, said:

I disagree with everything the original poster has stated. I believe a power drawl system will help get rid of alpha warrior which in my opinion is not battletech or mechwarrior. I also believe by using a power drawl system you will force a longer time to kill and by doing this will increase match length and ultimately better matches.

Alpha warrior is for noobs. (Anyone can get in a direstar and one shot someone.)

I don't buy it. It won't create a longer TTK not really. The only difference would be that 5sec will be the new 4sec.

Even now the "average" Laser Vomit Build hit the dirt when he is forced to face a decent brawler. Like Ghost Heat another system can work but as Ghost Heat it will be again something that you can work around - or is still wanting (you know the IS Medium Pulse Laser haven't had any Ghost Heat for almost 2 years)

[Khobai]

Ghost heat 2.0 will likely make the game unplayable.

IMO the only real way to fix this mess is to completely rebalance the weapons and heat system.

[Karl Streiger]

Khobai, on 02 May 2016 - 12:57 AM, said:

Ghost heat 2.0 will likely make the game unplayable.

IMO the only real way to fix this mess is to completely rebalance the weapons and heat system.

Alternativ is to take the path that was choosen and move on.
The path will lead us to Holly SRMs that work better vs undead Mechs or some aura around our Mechs that could heal others.

[Lily from animove]

Don't worry, If its going to be a real bad system PGI will revert it.

[TheArisen]

I'm not overly fond of the power draw system. While its true some mechs are bit overly powerful but I'd rather buff the weaker mechs except in certain cases.

[Lily from animove]

TheArisen, on 02 May 2016 - 01:18 AM, said:

I'm not overly fond of the power draw system. While its true some mechs are bit overly powerful but I'd rather buff the weaker mechs except in certain cases.

the issue is, the heat system kinda is a power draw system, theres no need for a second system on top doing basically the same.

[Khobai]

Quote

the issue is, the heat system kinda is a power draw system, theres no need for a second system on top doing basically the same.

exactly. the heat system is already a power draw system. we dont need another power draw system on top of that.

the reason the current heat system doesnt work is because weapons do way too much damage proportional to how much heat they generate.

Thats what needs to be fixed. They either need to lower the damage or increase the heat.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Some people here are way too in love with mixing large and medium type lasers (what is in fact borderline ghost heat gap exploit, just so popular that PGI started to balance the game around it). Like if you'll have to shoot TWICE instead on ONCE will completely invalidate torso twisting and make this game 1-dimensional. Really?

Does 12 small laser nova that is a 2-shot alpha mech not need to torso twist? Mine has to. Does 5lpl banshee that is a 2-shot alpha mech does not need to torso twist? Mine has to. IMHO twisting them requires a bit more skill, because there is no simple shoot-and-twist universal solution. I have to judge myself if I should twist first to soak the first alpha->return fire, or land the first shot -> twist to soak->shoot rest of the lasers, or risk shooting twice, or shoot once and then fall back into cover. That's 4 options to choose vs 2 that alpha builds have.

And mind you, 2-shot builds are viable now. Yes, they loose a noticable bit to 1-shot vomits, but not that much.

Those competitive ballistic builds can work on competitive level because they got strong quirks. If power draw will make them too good, we'll just whine PGI into toning those quirks down. It's a non issue.

---
Yes, I know that it is possible for PGI to implement a bad system that will make the game worse, not better. I just don't take their failure for granted. For example, I don't believe they'll put the power draw ON TOP of ghost heat, but instead of ghost heat.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 02 May 2016 - 01:44 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Eh, I know nothing about the system, so I'm not complaining yet.

I DO wish they'd just trial a 30 heat cap for mm

[Karl Streiger]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 02 May 2016 - 01:41 AM, said:

For example, I don't believe they'll put the power draw ON TOP of ghost heat, but instead of ghost heat.

Well this could be an option - anyhow I don't see that any additional system is needed.

You have heat dissipation, heat capacity (aka Mechs Heat) and heat generated per usage....everything you ever need is already there

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 May 2016 - 02:10 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 02 May 2016 - 01:41 AM, said:

Some people here are way too in love with mixing large and medium type lasers (what is in fact borderline ghost heat gap exploit, just so popular that PGI started to balance the game around it). Like if you'll have to shoot TWICE instead on ONCE will completely invalidate torso twisting and make this game 1-dimensional. Really?

Does 12 small laser nova that is a 2-shot alpha mech not need to torso twist? Mine has to. Does 5lpl banshee that is a 2-shot alpha mech does not need to torso twist? Mine has to. IMHO twisting them requires a bit more skill, because there is no simple shoot-and-twist universal solution. I have to judge myself if I should twist first to soak the first alpha->return fire, or land the first shot -> twist to soak->shoot rest of the lasers, or risk shooting twice, or shoot once and then fall back into cover. That's 4 options to choose vs 2 that alpha builds have.

And mind you, 2-shot builds are viable now. Yes, they loose a noticable bit to 1-shot vomits, but not that much.

Those competitive ballistic builds can work on competitive level because they got strong quirks. If power draw will make them too good, we'll just whine PGI into toning those quirks down. It's a non issue.

---
Yes, I know that it is possible for PGI to implement a bad system that will make the game worse, not better. I just don't take their failure for granted. For example, I don't believe they'll put the power draw ON TOP of ghost heat, but instead of ghost heat.

Yes, because the extent of the game should be, "do I twist or do I shoot"....failure to judge that right results in your being 2 shot....

I fail to see how people find that fun at all...

[Prof RJ Gumby]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 May 2016 - 02:13 AM, said:

Yes, because the extent of the game should be, "do I twist or do I shoot"....failure to judge that right results in your being 2 shot....

I fail to see how people find that fun at all...

Twisting part is just one of a number of tactical aspects already there - range, positioning, focus fire, flanking, deathballing, ambushes, firing lines. Twisting won't help you if you get jumped 3vs1, or if you'll walk stupidly straight into a firing line... it can just delay your destruction for a few seconds. However, in 1 on 1, all-out brawls and such, it can win you the fight. Curbing alphas will make the twisting a bit less important in comparison to other tactical aspects, but it won't make it not important.

[oldradagast]

If Ghost Heat 2.0 has an absolute trigger point for "bad stuff" to happen to the user, the meta will simply be a small reshuffle of what we currently have: find the most amount of pinpoint, long range damage you can deal that keeps you under the "bad stuff" limit, and then win games as you mow down "stupid noobs" and play peek-a-boo from behind rocks with other, nearly identical meta-builds.

PGI doesn't get it; worse, I fear that with "power draw" we'll see a nasty nerf to all the high-alpha but low effectiveness builds, like mixed AC+ SRM brawlers. They are nowhere near meta, but they have high alpha numbers (and short range and huge damage scatter) and are often the only viable builds for some chassis (Atlas, I'm looking at you.)

Until PGI is willing to do something useful about the long-range, pinpoint meta, we can expect nothing but endless, slow waves of band-aid "solutions" that really fix nothing.

Aresye, on 01 May 2016 - 11:26 PM, said:

Now you know why the idea is popular amongst those who never bothered to learn those skills.

Power Draw is not popular among ANYONE at this point, especially since nobody knows the details of the system. Thus, going only by PGI's track record, people are rightly concerned.

Or is your post yet another groundless attempt to pick a fight by assuming that anybody who understands the problems created by the current pinpoint, long-range meta is "a dumb noob who can't aim or twist" - I think we know the answer to that..

Edited by oldradagast, 02 May 2016 - 03:20 AM.

[Noesis]

Warning potential dead horse flogging as far as PGI are concerned:

"Lower heat capacity whilst improving heat dissipation."

This will reduce the potential to alpha with energy and other high heat use weaponry and encourage the use of more heat neutral builds that are configured to apply weapons in a more "managed" way. The changes may not even need to be so siginificant to make the relevancy of making an effective ceiling for energy/heat based alpha.

Dakka builds are perhaps already limited by the number of slots and tonnage to at least maintain a reasonable maximum to the amount of alpha you can apply. Clan Dakka perhaps moreso with the use of burst fire.

Ghost heat can still remain with this system and perhaps heat penalties could be applied also as more subtle way to discourage the build up of heat.

There may well be a rebalancing exercise needed with the weapons to enable this change, but it is a simple way to reduce alpha without having to introduce a completely new system. Time that could perhaps be spent on introducing other gaming features that actually make the game and purspose of playing more enjoyable.

This suggestion has been made time and time again however, but with the opposed view from PGI that they dont want to see heat neutral builds since they consider heat management should be a concern for pilots in MWO and as part of their skill set. But at least heat neutral builds would be reducing the use of weaponry used as it suggests that these would be applied in a reduced or more "managed" way anyhow.

---

My hope however is that any new "power system" is not an active system that debilitates performance of weapons in game but is perhaps more a way of placing limits on mechs in the mechlab with builds prior to dropping. If this is linked to engine ratings it may make the value of XL engines more useful, which might be relevant and work if the overall effect is to reduce the amount of alpha striking potential and overall weapons capability you can bring onto a drop ship.

Lights and mediums, or low weaponry potential mechs then perhaps unaffected by such limits, but the more heavier mechs then penalised with a choice of managing engine use for power set against weapon use. The tonnage applications with engines then also being a natural offset to how much weaponry you can bring.

The expectation here is however that the more heavier a mech the more power it will naturally have due to the capability of being able to apply larger engines anyhow. I just hope it doesn't force IS heavies into trying to use XL engines just to be able to perform in a game that are then significantly debilitated due to more sustained fire that still uses pinpoint accuracey on torsos.

Of course they could change the way IS XL engines behave so that it is less of a risk in being taken out by shooting at one torso and applying penalties when this occurs akin to how Clan XL engines work. And of course with fixed engine ratings on Clan Mechs it will perhaps also mean that builds on clan mechs may become more constrained, though Clan builds do have more flexibility with their weaponry with tonnages and slots of course and the abilty to use omni selections.

[oldradagast]

arivio, on 01 May 2016 - 11:47 PM, said:

I leave cover in front of 5+ Mechs, dont twist and im dead in seconds!!!11
Its not me, it's the game, so pls lower TTK!!!11

PGI will bring again a new hard Skillcap because all the bitching in the Forum.

Yes. Yes, because it takes soooo much skill to pile up 3 Large Pulse Lasers on your mech and get hit-scan damage on a single pixel. Right... because it takes soooo much more skill to have 3 lasers fired at once to hit the same spot vs. 1 laser fired...

Convergence is not skill.

Anyone who honestly thinks that it is has zero understanding of what skill is. Hint: It's not "skillfully" getting all your weapons to hit the same pixel because the game DOES THAT FOR YOU.

Edited by oldradagast, 02 May 2016 - 03:25 AM.