482 replies to this topic

[Jack Booted Thug]

Won't matter what changes instituted. Good players and groups will adapt and keep winning.

Terribads will still be terribad.

[Noesis]

Jack Booted Thug, on 02 May 2016 - 03:29 AM, said:

Won't matter what changes instituted. Good players and groups will adapt and keep winning.

Terribads will still be terribad.

This might be true, but might help to remove limited gaming choices like "bring fire support alpha build or go home" and make other playstyle choices more relevant to MWO?

[VorpalAnvil]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 03:22 AM, said:

Until PGI is willing to do something useful about the long-range, pinpoint meta, we can expect nothing but endless, slow waves of band-aid "solutions" that really fix nothing.

Anyone who thinks that long range pinpoint (ie lasers and gauss ) is still the primary "meta" in this game either:
A: Is mindlessly parroting cryhards from this forum
B: Doesn't really understand the game and needs to watch some MRBC
C: Is a below average player who is envious of their betters and wants the game dumbed down to their level.

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 03:22 AM, said:

Or is your post yet another groundless attempt to pick a fight by assuming that anybody who understands the problems created by the current pinpoint, long-range meta is "a dumb noob who can't aim or twist" - I think we know the answer to that..

Being bad at this game does not make you morally superior to others.

Edited by VorpalAnvil, 02 May 2016 - 04:16 AM.

[VorpalAnvil]

Noesis, on 02 May 2016 - 03:40 AM, said:

This might be true, but might help to remove limited gaming choices like "bring fire support alpha build or go home" and make other playstyle choices more relevant to MWO?

It will do no such thing. Smart players will end around any system designed by the T5's at PGI and find another way to bring the most damage to bear in the least amount of time. Failure to do so will mean you lose, the same way bads lose now.

[Noesis]

Laser vomit fire support Mechs are the Meta.

I agree it isnt long range gauss or er large laser/PPC anymore, but the large laser and large pulse laser is still the meta weapon of choice for both IS and Clan.

This has helped to bring the applied weapon ranges down, but it has also allowed to increase the alpha applied to compensate and still allows an almost near effective brawl option with good weapon management also.

Still "fire support" is the dominant role in the game. This then not meaning that fire suppression isnt relevant to MWO and undesirable, only that other playstyle choices are not considered "the meta" and needs some slight tweaking to level the playing field more.

Otherwise as has been explained above these style of mechs wouldnt be considered the "prefered" choice to play MWO.

[Lugh]

Lily from animove, on 02 May 2016 - 01:10 AM, said:

Don't worry, If its going to be a real bad system PGI will revert it.

Ghost heat is a really bad system and it's been in place 2+ years.

Hoverjets is a really bad system and it's been in place 2+ years.

Collisions being MIA is a really bad system and it's been in place 3+ years.

Convergence mechanics not working properly is a really bad system and it's been in place 3+years.

Your statement is demonstrably false.

[VorpalAnvil]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 03:24 AM, said:

Yes. Yes, because it takes soooo much skill to pile up 3 Large Pulse Lasers on your mech and get hit-scan damage on a single pixel. Right... because it takes soooo much more skill to have 3 lasers fired at once to hit the same spot vs. 1 laser fired...

Convergence is not skill.

But understanding the mechlab and how to properly build a mech IS. It's hardly the fault of the players that your "good at any range" lore build form 1987 doesn't work in this game. And no matter how much you wail and gnash against it, that isn't changing. But the simple fact is, people like you will never change because the second you try a "meta" build and still lose you will promptly be out of excuses as to why you continue to do so, and we can't have that can we?

Lugh, on 02 May 2016 - 04:29 AM, said:

Ghost heat is a really bad system and it's been in place 2+ years.

Hoverjets is a really bad system and it's been in place 2+ years.

Collisions being MIA is a really bad system and it's been in place 3+ years.

Convergence mechanics not working properly is a really bad system and it's been in place 3+years.

Your statement is demonstrably false.

Please sir! This is a reality free zone!

[LordKnightFandragon]

VorpalAnvil, on 02 May 2016 - 04:21 AM, said:

It will do no such thing. Smart players will end around any system designed by the T5's at PGI and find another way to bring the most damage to bear in the least amount of time. Failure to do so will mean you lose, the same way bads lose now.

Yet you propose a CoF and suddenly every 1337 tier amazing uber god mode mech pilot around the world shits themselves and suddenly cant play the game. Any system is fine, so long as it doesnt prevent the massing of pinpoint accurate firepower.

[Livewyr]

I'm not thrilled by Russ's proposed mechanic either- it's a band-aid.
But what makes it a band-aid is the already broken system they have now.

In the OP you say that people alpha strike for self defense. Alpha Strike + Twist -> Repeat.
I'm not sure about you, but that seems pretty one-dimensional, and it's a result of the binary mechanics they have.

Your mech is either on and fully functioning- or it's off.
Heat doesn't matter until your mech is off.
Movement doesn't matter unless you are using jumpjets or MASC- and they are both the same reaction.
Even missing an entire side of your mech doesn't matter- except to turn those systems off.

Your mech's crosshairs will always be where your mouse is looking, if your mech is turned on. That's binary.

Coupling the binary on/off mechanics with perfect accuracy in all situations is how you get to the point where engagements in the open are

Alpha
Twist
Alpha
Twist
Alpha
Twist.

And engagements from cover are

Alpha
Hide
Alpha
Hide
Alpha
Hide

(Just make sure your Alpha is giving better than you get. "Better Trades")

(You can't even use LRMs to begin with because they are not compatible with the Alpha-Twist/Alpha-Hide gameplay requirement.)

If that isn't a boring style of combat- I don't know what is.

Edited by Livewyr, 02 May 2016 - 04:39 AM.

[Lugh]

Livewyr, on 02 May 2016 - 04:38 AM, said:

I'm not thrilled by Russ's proposed mechanic either- it's a band-aid.
But what makes it a band-aid is the already broken system they have now.

In the OP you say that people alpha strike for self defense. Alpha Strike + Twist -> Repeat.
I'm not sure about you, but that seems pretty one-dimensional, and it's a result of the binary mechanics they have.

Your mech is either on and fully functioning- or it's off.
Heat doesn't matter until your mech is off.
Movement doesn't matter unless you are using jumpjets or MASC- and they are both the same reaction.
Even missing an entire side of your mech doesn't matter- except to turn those systems off.

Your mech's crosshairs will always be where your mouse is looking, if your mech is turned on. That's binary.

Coupling the binary on/off mechanics with perfect accuracy in all situations is how you get to the point where engagements in the open are

Alpha
Twist
Alpha
Twist
Alpha
Twist.

And engagements from cover are

Alpha
Hide
Alpha
Hide
Alpha
Hide

(Just make sure your Alpha is giving better than you get. "Better Trades")

(You can't even use LRMs to begin with because they are not compatible with the Alpha-Twist/Alpha-Hide gameplay requirement.)

If that isn't a boring style of combat- I don't know what is.

If you can't LRM and twist you might just be doing it wrong....

[Karl Streiger]

Livewyr, on 02 May 2016 - 04:38 AM, said:

If that isn't a boring style of combat- I don't know what is.

Its not half as boring as you think it is. Because battles not won by who twists better or not - its won by the right positioning.
And Alpha Hide Alpha is a great option to get killed.


Anyhow MWO is about efficency. Running a inefficient Mech is the choice of the player, but if you do so don't and got killed its not because of bad evil one klick meta - its because this is how the game is played.

VorpalAnvil, on 02 May 2016 - 04:31 AM, said:

But understanding the mechlab and how to properly build a mech IS. It's hardly the fault of the players that your "good at any range" lore build form 1987 doesn't work in this game.

Not that it is impossible - afaik MWLL had a ton of mixed range mechs -

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 May 2016 - 04:47 AM.

[VorpalAnvil]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 May 2016 - 04:33 AM, said:

Yet you propose a CoF and suddenly every 1337 tier amazing uber god mode mech pilot around the world shits themselves and suddenly cant play the game. Any system is fine, so long as it doesnt prevent the massing of pinpoint accurate firepower.

Competent players reject CoF because it reduces gameplay to "who wins this random dice roll". The sooner you reject tabletop nonsense, the sooner you will understand the game.

[Karl Streiger]

VorpalAnvil, on 02 May 2016 - 04:46 AM, said:

Competent players reject CoF because it reduces gameplay to "who wins this random dice roll". The sooner you reject tabletop nonsense, the sooner you will understand the game.

Well of course you could rather use some explanation why a simple CoF wouldn't do the game any good. Instead of this 4 1/2 year old discussion

I will try:
Currently you hit what you are aiminig at - if you are good your shot will hit, if you are bad you miss most of the time.

Now with CoF. A good player will still hit most of the time - while a bad player will still miss most of the time but for both there is the chance that the good will miss because of CoF while the bad may hit because of CoF.

Rather than CoF - what about decreasing damage and increasing RoF?

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 May 2016 - 04:51 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Lugh, on 02 May 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

If you can't LRM and twist you might just be doing it wrong....

well, you can, if you don't want your lurms to hit. Anything beyond brawling ranges, you twist, you lose lock, your missiles revert to dumbfire.

Poor lurms, they're so bad

[Wintersdark]

VorpalAnvil, on 02 May 2016 - 04:46 AM, said:

Competent players reject CoF because it reduces gameplay to "who wins this random dice roll". The sooner you reject tabletop nonsense, the sooner you will understand the game.

except when theres a scaling CoF.

0 degrees normally - perfect convergence.

+up to X degrees CoF scaling linearly from 70-100% heat
+up to X degrees CoF scaling linearly from 70-100% max speed

So, if a player wants, he can have 100% perfect convergence. Or not. It's in the firing player's hands, his complete control.

It serves to encourage people to keep heat lower, finally adds scalar penalties to running hot or balls-to-the-wall fast.

And it's all in the firing player's hands. Lose a duel to "bad RNG roll on your CoF!"? You chose to fire under those circumstances, so it's you're fault.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Step #1 to fixing any system is being able to define in specific, non vague, terms what is broken.

I'm doubtful anyone can do that.

People dislike ghost heat but there isn't anyone who can define exactly what is wrong with it.

This implies a paradox -- trying to fix things that might be broken, that no one can explain how or why its broke.

The power draw system is just a variant of sized hardpoints. It means that certain components will be exempt from fitting in certain hardpoints to place limits on what type of weapons can be mounted. You could go back to MW4's hardpoint system and replace every large energy hardpoint with some number and replace every small energy hardpoint with a smaller value and it would have the same effect.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 02 May 2016 - 05:08 AM.

[Livewyr]

Karl Streiger, on 02 May 2016 - 04:42 AM, said:

Its not half as boring as you think it is. Because battles not won by who twists better or not - its won by the right positioning.
And Alpha Hide Alpha is a great option to get killed.

Positioning determines victory condition. It does not determine combat mechanics, which is what I'm talking about. (And, what Russ is talking about with his power draw system of w/e.)

Combat mechanics are the same. They are binary and boring, and positioning doesn't change that, it just changes where you are Alpha-Twisting from.

Does that better explain what I mean?

Karl Streiger, on 02 May 2016 - 04:42 AM, said:

Anyhow MWO is about efficency. Running a inefficient Mech is the choice of the player, but if you do so don't and got killed its not because of bad evil one klick meta - its because this is how the game is played.

"bad evil one klick meta" is how the game is played. And that's bad.
(And Russ knows it's bad, it's why he keeps floundering around trying to put GhostHeat, Guassrifle charge/limiter/this new POS band-aids on it.)

Just because the game is played in a bad binary combat mechanic doesn't mean that it's a good thing. It just means that is how the game is played. "That's how the game is played" is a flawed logic for determining something as acceptable.

(For example, would you be okay if, hypothetically, the game started with a pure WoT RNG style cone of fire? In that instance, that will have been "how the game is played.")

Lugh, on 02 May 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

If you can't LRM and twist you might just be doing it wrong....

Wintersdark, on 02 May 2016 - 04:53 AM, said:

well, you can, if you don't want your lurms to hit. Anything beyond brawling ranges, you twist, you lose lock, your missiles revert to dumbfire.

Poor lurms, they're so bad

This^

[Lugh]

Wintersdark, on 02 May 2016 - 04:53 AM, said:

well, you can, if you don't want your lurms to hit. Anything beyond brawling ranges, you twist, you lose lock, your missiles revert to dumbfire.

Poor lurms, they're so bad

Again you must be doing it wrong, you can twist quite far and still have a lock, you can twist all the way and lost the lock yes, but it is similar to subtle yet important difference between deflecting a strike in martial arts ALA Bruce Lee and Blocking a Strike a la Chuck Norris.

If your goal is to keep the lock you have less room to roll, but you can still roll damage across the entirety of your torsos and at least one arm.

And no I am not saying LRMs are good. They are 'bad' as a primary weapon, but they are perfect as a finisher.

Edited by Lugh, 02 May 2016 - 05:11 AM.

[Livewyr]

I wouldn't even go Cone of Fire, that leaves way too much "BULL****"

I would go for reticle sway and jostling, affected by actions and status of the mech.
Weapons would still go to their respective reticles (Arm lock would be gone)

But the reticles would sway or jostle in varying degrees and rates depending on several factors:
Speed
Throttle
MASC
Jumpjets.

And the transitions between high reticle instability to low/no reticle instability would be affected by Heat percentages. (And Heat would affect other combat systems as well.)


If we wanted to get fancy, we could have reticle sway/jostling heightened from missing half of your mech...

[H I A S]

Karl Streiger, on 02 May 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

Well of course you could rather use some explanation why a simple CoF wouldn't do the game any good. Instead of this 4 1/2 year old discussion

I will try:
Currently you hit what you are aiminig at - if you are good your shot will hit, if you are bad you miss most of the time.

Now with CoF. A good player will still hit most of the time - while a bad player will still miss most of the time but for both there is the chance that the good will miss because of CoF while the bad may hit because of CoF.

Rather than CoF - what about decreasing damage and increasing RoF?

So baddies will punish players with good aim?

CT is oneshot, baddie hit LT, dice say CT. gg