482 replies to this topic

[Lugh]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 May 2016 - 04:33 AM, said:

Yet you propose a CoF and suddenly every 1337 tier amazing uber god mode mech pilot around the world shits themselves and suddenly cant play the game. Any system is fine, so long as it doesnt prevent the massing of pinpoint accurate firepower.

This is a myth. Convergence did not (even when it was in the game) do anything to prevent the pinpoint accuracy of firepower.

It merely delayed that process when you did stupid things like look at the ground, run in to the wall, run in to another mech, etc.

As such it was a good mechanic. The "CHURCH OF SKILL" could not comprehend true marksmanship is often about waiting for the right shot and wanted to click click click win.

[Karl Streiger]

I Zeratul I, on 02 May 2016 - 05:05 AM, said:

Step #1 to fixing any system is being able to define in specific, non vague, terms what is broken.

I'm doubtful anyone can do that.

The underlying issue is still convergence. Currently with Ghost Heat smaller weapons are better because you have more.
Without Ghost Heat more range = bigger weapons are more important.
The goal is to deal as much damage as possible as fast as possible into a single location.
The Heatsystem and the bad translated armor distribution only support this play style.

Thx to the community i also have a name now: Massed Convergence or why 12 ER-Small Laser are better than a single ER-PPC. Without Ghost Heat its just again sniper Convergence.

But in the end its just the amount of time that is needed to put a specific threshold of damage into a single location.

Spread, GhostHeat, Power Draw, enforced Chain, lower damage more Shots....whatever just have the goal to increase the time.

arivio, on 02 May 2016 - 05:18 AM, said:

So baddies will punish players with good aim?

CT is oneshot, baddie hit LT, dice say CT. gg

this would happen with a simple CoF - right.
But a proper CoF <> Random... a proper CoF will result in a reasonable pattern, something i could deal with. For example i know that my shots hit wide left i can aim for wide right to hit dead center




Oh before the rose-colored glasses come back: In CB with convergence delay i lined up a shot with 2 ERPPC and a Gauss.... (yes this Atlas was hot) and all my shots crossed before the target and didn't hit. Even when you think and say you want such a system - i don't believe you. Everything that is random is bad

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 May 2016 - 05:33 AM.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Karl Streiger, on 02 May 2016 - 05:28 AM, said:

The underlying issue is still convergence. Currently with Ghost Heat smaller weapons are better because you have more.
Without Ghost Heat more range = bigger weapons are more important.
The goal is to deal as much damage as possible as fast as possible into a single location.
The Heatsystem and the bad translated armor distribution only support this play style.

Thx to the community i also have a name now: Massed Convergence or why 12 ER-Small Laser are better than a single ER-PPC. Without Ghost Heat its just again sniper Convergence.

But in the end its just the amount of time that is needed to put a specific threshold of damage into a single location.

Spread, GhostHeat, Power Draw, enforced Chain, lower damage more Shots....whatever just have the goal to increase the time.

How about.... ghost convergence?

I'm split on the topic, but a part of me likes what MW4 did to elevate TTK.

Its non canon and it doesn't directly parallel TT rules but maybe sometimes its good to remember that TT rules weren't designed for a FPS shooter, they were designed for a dice game and what works for one won't necessarily work for the other?

[Karl Streiger]

I Zeratul I, on 02 May 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

How about.... ghost convergence?

I'm split on the topic, but a part of me likes what MW4 did to elevate TTK.

Its non canon and it doesn't directly parallel TT rules but maybe sometimes its good to remember that TT rules weren't designed for a FPS shooter, they were designed for a dice game and what works for one won't necessarily work for the other?

Exactly TT values shouldn't even exist in a FPS. But its possible to translate - otherwise there wouldn't be games like Flames of War or similar where shooter uses a RL weapon to hit the target.
The question is how to translate them propper.
I would think the 2d6 to hit probability for pilots is exactly the same accuracy we have as gamers (elite 2d6 pilots hit more often, better trained gamers hit more often).
So the only issue is the distribution of this damage and how it is dealt.

I think the best way would be to make it more difficult to deal full Alpha Damage - but still possible.

Hm fresh idea: although it was for a different design.
Consider the IS SRM6 vs 2 Clan SRM6... : (3ton 2crit)
Is it a good design to have for both launcher the same values?

So why is the C-SRM6 not ripple fire?
They have done it with C-ACs and longer duration with Lasers. Those weapon can deal more damage in a constant time frame but its more difficult to deal full damage right?

What if an Alpha Strike is just a Macro Chain Style? For example no bitching with Ghost Heat when going Alpha with 4 Clan ERPPCs on a Warhawk- but a break of 0.2-0.3sec between each shot.
You can deal more damage but you have to keep the crosshair on target. You can't press a key and deflect.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 May 2016 - 05:45 AM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

All I want from power draw is to give us a comprehensive, simple to understand (new players mind you) system that will work more or less as GH works now, just without loopholes like mixing MLs and LPLs to workaround ghost heat penalties...

hm... basically, mixing LPLs and MLs is the only thing bad about current GH in terms of gameplay. In terms of (new) player comfort, there is also the issue that's not intuitive at all.

All they have to do to slightly improve gameplay and don't turn everything on its head is:
1. First, set power draw limit and weapons' power draw at the place it mimics ghost heat, but prevents mixing weapons (i.e. if the limit is 30, LLs will have 10 ** (still 3 max), MLs will have 5 (still 6 max), AC20 will have 30 (still 1 max), PPCs will have 15 (still 2 max).
2. Then decrease power draw of weapons that don't synergise with other weapons too much (to allow not OP mixed builds, like ACs+srms etc.), and bad primary weapons to allow using them as secondary.

in example:
-AC20 powerdraw may be lowered to 16 to still not allow 2xAC20 alpha, but to allow AC20+stuff builds.
-lrms may have low powerdraw to encourage using them as support weapons with lazors and whatnot
- AC5s may have very low powerdraw to allow mixing them with lasers to raise alpha/lower heat at cost of convergence
etc. etc.
This will not turn everything on its head, but just make laser alpha builds a 2-punch mechs, what will make any other builds a bit less inferior to lasers.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 02 May 2016 - 05:59 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 May 2016 - 11:05 PM, said:

The other thing you have to realize is, the reason people alpha strike is for their own survival. Firing weapons in groups means you are staring, making you an easy target for the other team, meaning you die faster than if you were to come out and get your damage out then roll away to spread damage.

I guess you forget how awesome closed beta was and how long fights took.

Autocannons could have their own sort of power draw. Fire one by itself and the cannon is fine, fire two and both create their own recoil distorting their flight path as they leave the barrel, fire three simultaneously and the recoil is even worse, etc.

Of course, that'd lead to macros...

But their ammo belts need power! The other solution--and this is a neat one... is to slow down all autocannon firing rates to compensate for the power draw limits on on other weapons!

There's no reason to have high dps autocannons if lazors can't dump ridiculous damage in seconds.



Don't worry, the game won't devolve into folks facewalling and hulking around like Ultraman versus Hydra. Everyone will still want to minimize damage. It'll just take longer to finish the enemy off, thus, promoting more brawling which is good.

[Gas Guzzler]

The is a serious amount of misinformation in this thread.

1) Limiting alpha strikes is not going to increase TTK. I can kill you with a 20 point alpha strikes faster than I can with a 58 point alpha strike.

2) Laser vomit is not the only meta. How many times do people need to say this before it sinks in? The only weapon systems that aren't meta are LRMs, AC10s, and AC2s. Please stop making uninformed false comments.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 02 May 2016 - 06:04 AM, said:

I guess you forget how awesome closed beta was and how long fights took.

Autocannons could have their own sort of power draw. Fire one by itself and the cannon is fine, fire two and both create their own recoil distorting their flight path as they leave the barrel, fire three simultaneously and the recoil is even worse, etc.

Of course, that'd lead to macros...

But their ammo belts need power! The other solution--and this is a neat one... is to slow down all autocannon firing rates to compensate for the power draw limits on on other weapons!

There's no reason to have high dps autocannons if lazors can't dump ridiculous damage in seconds.



Don't worry, the game won't devolve into folks facewalling and hulking around like Ultraman versus Hydra. Everyone will still want to minimize damage. It'll just take longer to finish the enemy off, thus, promoting more brawling which is good.

Wasn't here for CB.

And yeah, good luck with brawling, can't wait for people to realize how low TTK is with the brawling meta in place right now that no one seems to no about.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Karl Streiger, on 02 May 2016 - 05:44 AM, said:

Exactly TT values shouldn't even exist in a FPS. But its possible to translate - otherwise there wouldn't be games like Flames of War or similar where shooter uses a RL weapon to hit the target.
The question is how to translate them propper.
I would think the 2d6 to hit probability for pilots is exactly the same accuracy we have as gamers (elite 2d6 pilots hit more often, better trained gamers hit more often).
So the only issue is the distribution of this damage and how it is dealt.

I think the best way would be to make it more difficult to deal full Alpha Damage - but still possible.

Hm fresh idea: although it was for a different design.
Consider the IS SRM6 vs 2 Clan SRM6... : (3ton 2crit)
Is it a good design to have for both launcher the same values?

So why is the C-SRM6 not ripple fire?
They have done it with C-ACs and longer duration with Lasers. Those weapon can deal more damage in a constant time frame but its more difficult to deal full damage right?

What if an Alpha Strike is just a Macro Chain Style? For example no bitching with Ghost Heat when going Alpha with 4 Clan ERPPCs on a Warhawk- but a break of 0.2-0.3sec between each shot.
You can deal more damage but you have to keep the crosshair on target. You can't press a key and deflect.

I haven't given it as much thought as you have. That's a good point about CSRM-6's not being stream fired.

As far as I know, the atlas in the tabletop game was designed by Kerensky to kill a mech in a single salvo. The original TT rules are built around that kind of insta kill / low TTK gameplay. It makes sense that a video game built around those same principles would also have something like low TTK and insta kills, especially with the 12 vs 12 component.

I know some people think that raising ghost heat to a crippling degree to a point where it prevents mechs from using its weapons consistently as some variation of "time out" will fix things.

But I have to wonder if the best fix isn't deviating from TT rules that were designed to include low TTK and insta kills. PGI is reluctant to take those steps and I don't blame them considering the amount of hullabaloo that could ensue.

For myself I don't think TTK is too bad. I have lots of long and drawn out battles on a consistent basis with the occasional blowout. But never consistent or repeated games where I get insta killed or where TTK seems low.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 02 May 2016 - 06:17 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jack Booted Thug, on 02 May 2016 - 03:29 AM, said:

Won't matter what changes instituted. Good players and groups will adapt and keep winning.

Terribads will still be terribad.

Of course they will be, and they will still die just as quickly.

It's not about being able to adapt, it's about killing the variety that we have now, and having a reason to have mechs like the Night Gyr.

Noesis, on 02 May 2016 - 03:40 AM, said:

This might be true, but might help to remove limited gaming choices like &quot;bring fire support alpha build or go home&quot; and make other playstyle choices more relevant to MWO?

Other playstyles are relevant now though..

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 May 2016 - 06:19 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 06:15 AM, said:

Wasn't here for CB.

And yeah, good luck with brawling, can't wait for people to realize how low TTK is with the brawling meta in place right now that no one seems to no about.

Brawling is okay now but 55 - 60 pt pinpoint concentrated fire wub alphas with high mounts promote stagnant hiding.

Power draw won't lower TTK. Alpha strike... cockpit brownouts, 'mech slowdown, actuator failures, etc., the possibilities are endless on what they could do with it.

If done properly, power draw should encourage mixed weapon type usage but should also take into consideration chassis with limited type choices as to not render those 'mechs useless.

p.s. I only PUG solo queue whenever I feel motivated or have time to play (which isn't often). I have zero idea how CW or group play is these days because I lack the desire to deal with all the BS that comes with it.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 02 May 2016 - 06:23 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Captain Luffy, on 02 May 2016 - 12:34 AM, said:

I disagree with everything the original poster has stated. I believe a power drawl system will help get rid of alpha warrior which in my opinion is not battletech or mechwarrior. I also believe by using a power drawl system you will force a longer time to kill and by doing this will increase match length and ultimately better matches.

Alpha warrior is for noobs. (Anyone can get in a direstar and one shot someone.)

It will lot lengthen TTK. How long can you stand in front of a Mauler or a Black Widow?

Every mechwarrior game to date has allowed alpha strikes. They happen in the books all the time as well.

I personally have never been one shot. If you are getting 1 shot you are doing something wrong.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 May 2016 - 06:26 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lugh, on 02 May 2016 - 05:21 AM, said:

This is a myth. Convergence did not (even when it was in the game) do anything to prevent the pinpoint accuracy of firepower.

It merely delayed that process when you did stupid things like look at the ground, run in to the wall, run in to another mech, etc.

As such it was a good mechanic. The "CHURCH OF SKILL" could not comprehend true marksmanship is often about waiting for the right shot and wanted to click click click win.

Thats because a delay of PPFLD is all convergence was. A CoF is a system that actually prevents the focusing of masses of firepower.

[Khobai]

Power draw also excessively punishes mechs like the Nova that are SUPPOSED to boat 12 lasers.

Whats the point of having 12 energy hardpoints if theres a system in place that artificially limits how many lasers you can fire?

They need to find a better solution that allows mechs like the Nova to use all their hardpoints.

Quote

So why is the C-SRM6 not ripple fire?

Because that would be stupid. They would be useless as a ripple fire weapon. Just like clan autocannons are useless as burst fire weapons. And clan lrms get chewed up by AMS even worse because theyre ripple fire.

whats next? ripple fire lasers?

Why dont we just make all clan weapons useless. Thats obviously what you want.

Edited by Khobai, 02 May 2016 - 06:34 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Karl Streiger, on 02 May 2016 - 05:28 AM, said:

Oh before the rose-colored glasses come back: In CB with convergence delay i lined up a shot with 2 ERPPC and a Gauss.... (yes this Atlas was hot) and all my shots crossed before the target and didn't hit. Even when you think and say you want such a system - i don't believe you. Everything that is random is bad

Yes, I can tell you exactly why it did that to. Convergence. You simply did not wait long enough for all your guns to converge onto the same spot, therefore, your guns fired and met at the range they were converged to. Ever played a flight sim like IL-2? You set your guns to 250.0m, you will only get the max focused fire when you are at 250.0m from the plane. Beyond that and before that, you will get a deviation of your fire, spreading it wide and all over the enemy plane.

What needs to be is a mild CoF system, mixed with convergence, plus it only doing so when you press R. Otherwise your guns blankly stare off into space with nothing to lock onto.

[Karl Streiger]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 May 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

Thats because a delay of PPFLD is all convergence was. A CoF is a system that actually prevents the focusing of masses of firepower.

a CoF that is not predictable is as bad as game mechanic as Ghost Heat or Power Draw or Bonus Quirks vs Zombie Mechs.

And I'm not a fan of AlphaWarrior but not a fan of grotesque game mechanics either.

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 May 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

Yes, I can tell you exactly why it did that to. Convergence. You simply did not wait long enough for all your guns to converge onto the same spot, therefore, your guns fired and met at the range they were converged to. Ever played a flight sim like IL-2? You set your guns to 250.0m, you will only get the max focused fire when you are at 250.0m from the plane. Beyond that and before that, you will get a deviation of your fire, spreading it wide and all over the enemy plane.

What needs to be is a mild CoF system, mixed with convergence, plus it only doing so when you press R. Otherwise your guns blankly stare off into space with nothing to lock onto.

thx - IL2- was predictable - for example Hurrican - to close i had to aim for the engine to hit the Cockpit (on a double engine bomber)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 May 2016 - 06:32 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Khobai, on 02 May 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

Power draw also excessively punishes mechs like the Nova that are SUPPOSED to boat 12 lasers.

Whats the point of having 12 energy hardpoints if theres a system in place that artificially limits how many lasers you can fire?

They need to find a better solution that allows mechs like the Nova to use all their hardpoints.

12 lasers was honestly never a good build anyway. It sounds good on paper, moar dakka, but really, that kinda build is bad. IDK if id want a mech that spends more time shut down then powered on.

[Noesis]

I Zeratul I, on 02 May 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

But I have to wonder if the best fix isn't deviating from TT rules that were designed to include low TTK and insta kills.

TTK as per TT would also be influenced by the representation on the field, assaults would be considered as rare pivotal mechs and not considered with equality with their representation.

If drops limited Assault and Heavy representation this would also improve TTK.

E.g. Instead of 3/3/3/3 or even perhaps having even more assault/heavy representation on a drop then apply:

Slight limits: 2A, 3H, 4M, 3L

TT More realistic Limits: 1 A, 2H, 5M, 4L

This would improve on TTK, might then allow more roles to be valid as they arent facing as much firepower potential and shift validty to the use of more mobile tactics.

I know it wont happen however as freedom of player choice and the ability of PGI to sell expensive mechs will be something they want to encourage.

But you still have to remember that even though MWO isnt TT it does still use the same precidents in its design and model. So you could argue that the over representation of Assault and Heavies does skew the firepower concerns. This perhaps more relevant in a pinpoint game where oversized mediums struggle, that would be more the normal in TT?

[LordKnightFandragon]

Karl Streiger, on 02 May 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

a CoF that is not predictable is as bad as game mechanic as Ghost Heat or Power Draw or Bonus Quirks vs Zombie Mechs.

And I'm not a fan of AlphaWarrior but not a fan of grotesque game mechanics either.

Not predictable? If the COF is done properly, the shot will always land within the circle.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 02 May 2016 - 06:21 AM, said:

Brawling is okay now but 55 - 60 pt pinpoint concentrated fire wub alphas with high mounts promote stagnant hiding.

Power draw won't lower TTK. Alpha strike... cockpit brownouts, 'mech slowdown, actuator failures, etc., the possibilities are endless on what they could do with it.

If done properly, power draw should encourage mixed weapon type usage but should also take into consideration chassis with limited type choices as to not render those 'mechs useless.

p.s. I only PUG solo queue whenever I feel motivated or have time to play (which isn't often). I have zero idea how CW or group play is these days because I lack the desire to deal with all the BS that comes with it.

Brawling is meta. If you only solo drop you probably don't see it, but it is everywhere in competitive play, and in the group queue if you get your whole team on board it's incredibly powerful, will outright destroy alpha poke builds on many maps.

CW is still laser heavy because of the lack of ammo dependency. Pushing in with SRMS would work great but then you run out of ammo.