482 replies to this topic

[Nastyogre]

Khobai, on 02 May 2016 - 12:57 AM, said:

Ghost heat 2.0 will likely make the game unplayable.

IMO the only real way to fix this mess is to completely rebalance the weapons and heat system.

Yes. Take us back to TT values on heat, damage, armor and heat sinks.
Allow heat sinks to drain off heat exactly in the manner TT works. If you have 15 DHS it will clear 30 points of heat... in one minute. We shoot more often, thus you heat up when you exceed that. Bring in the TT heat cap and heat impacts.

Alpha warrior would exist, IF you built enough heatsinks in. IF you were willing to wait to cool. No mech could survive more than 1 high heat alpha in a minute. That or you cool enough not to shut down and shoot again and you are a slow moving inaccurate target.

There would then be a point to having missiles and autocannons. You could fire those after a big energy hit and only slow your cooling a little. This would slow fire tremendously, that's why armor comes down to TT.

TTK lengthens, but is reasonable but alpha warrior dies, as it should.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 02 May 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

Power draw also excessively punishes mechs like the Nova that are SUPPOSED to boat 12 lasers.

Whats the point of having 12 energy hardpoints if theres a system in place that artificially limits how many lasers you can fire?

They need to find a better solution that allows mechs like the Nova to use all their hardpoints.



Because that would be stupid. They would be useless as a ripple fire weapon. Just like clan autocannons are useless as burst fire weapons. And clan lrms get chewed up by AMS even worse because theyre ripple fire.

whats next? ripple fire lasers?

Why dont we just make all clan weapons useless. Thats obviously what you want.

What's the point of the Kodiak even? Sure the KDK-3 can bring 4 UAC10S (known for their long TTK right?) But the rest of them... why even exist?

[Mister Blastman]

Khobai, on 02 May 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

Power draw also excessively punishes mechs like the Nova that are SUPPOSED to boat 12 lasers.

Whats the point of having 12 energy hardpoints if theres a system in place that artificially limits how many lasers you can fire?

They need to find a better solution that allows mechs like the Nova to use all their hardpoints.

There is one, but nobody has the guts to do it.

My Adaptive Armor Grid System™ which rewards players who can make and shoot through tiny holes.

example:

Lights get LT hitboxes doubled to two
Mediums get LT put to four boxes
Heavies get LT put to six boxes
Assaults get LT put to nine boxes

Same armor values as now for EACH BOX.

Want inside bits, poke hole, shoot through tiny hole.

This system will apply to not only torsos, but arms and legs, too! (ib excuses of "Oh well we'll just leg them then!" and not only will legs get more boxes, they'll get backside boxes, too so no more ez-mode leg 'em and luls)

But nobody wants that. It is a waste of developer time because mechpacks are productive and the pinnacle of MWO needs and it is too hard and it'd mean folks have to work for their kill and...

:insert excuses here:

That's pretty much what it boils down to. That's okay--this isn't my IP. I get to do what I want with my own.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 02 May 2016 - 06:38 AM.

[Livewyr]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 06:19 AM, said:

It's not about being able to adapt, it's about killing the variety that we have now, and having a reason to have mechs like the Night Gyr.

Exactly what variety do we have now?

Laser Spam Heavies
or SRM Spam Heavies.

(The leagues have to ban duplicate mechs because everyone would bring the same damned 2-3 mechs.)

Edited by Livewyr, 02 May 2016 - 06:38 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 May 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

12 lasers was honestly never a good build anyway. It sounds good on paper, moar dakka, but really, that kinda build is bad. IDK if id want a mech that spends more time shut down then powered on.

well the interesting part about the 12 ER-M-Laser Nova is: it could do what you couldn't do with say 8 ER-M-Laser.
Because of the different firing arcs.... this feature need some more power in MWO anyhow.

Something were delayed convergence or "manual" modified Convergence point could be helpful. (sticking just the arms out of cover without hiting the cover when shooting at the target that is behind cover from your view point but not from the perspective of the arm. (this was the good about CB delayed convergence)

Darn so much potential

[Khobai]

Quote

12 lasers was honestly never a good build anyway

Completely wrong. Show me another 50 ton build that has an 84 damage alphastrike.

People who think 12 laser builds arnt good simply didnt know how to use them. The way you used them was by having multiple Novas.

A lance of 4 novas all alphastriking for 84 damage could take out an Atlas a turn.

Edited by Khobai, 02 May 2016 - 06:40 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

That idea isn't bad, but they won't do it. Also, the people whining about TTK who like to stand still would still get killed just as quickly. They won't be happy until you can only fire 2 medium lasers at a time, so they can have ample time to react without taking too much damage. LMAO.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 May 2016 - 06:40 AM.

[FupDup]

Nastyogre, on 02 May 2016 - 06:34 AM, said:

Allow heat sinks to drain off heat exactly in the manner TT works. If you have 15 DHS it will clear 30 points of heat... in one minute.

Taking 60 full seconds to dissipate 30 points of heat? That would make the majority of weapons unplayable. And by majority I mean weapons that generate more than 3 or so heat per shot.

In TT, 15 DHS didn't take a full minute to cool off 30 heat, they only took 10 seconds to do so.

[Gas Guzzler]

Livewyr, on 02 May 2016 - 06:37 AM, said:

Exactly what variety do we have now?

Laser Spam Heavies
or SRM Spam Heavies.

(The leagues have to ban duplicate mechs because everyone would bring the same damned 2-3 mechs.)

SRM+AC20 Atlas
5AC5 Mauler (often the duplicate in those mentioned leagues)
Some AC5 heavies are getting a look. We will likely see Black Widows in some situations. Jager-DD has been taken for its DPS role.

Lights are important for scouting, and Oxides and Jenner IICs, are pretty meta.

SRM or laser mediums are also there.

There's plenty of variety... all power draw is going to do is remove those builds that require alpha striking to be effective and strengthen the DPS mechs.

Given drop tonnage/class limits and different maps, drop decks are very different. Would it surprise you to know that some teams have had matches without bringing a Black Knight?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 May 2016 - 06:47 AM.

[Tordin]

The root of all evil mechanics that are ghost heat, mass quirkening, pin point convergence and so on. Are the lack of that certain convergence that makes sense?
As far I understand, PGI made it so, what we have today. Or they would have an helluva time with mass whining from competive meta heads until they go bust, to say atleast.

Seriously I tried to find the post and topic I was referring to, but seeing all posts I have written seems to not be an option. Just hope someone understand what I try to say.

[QuantumButler]

How about we ditch arbitrary balance systems like ghost heat and ghost head 2.0, and we all just get good and deal with it?

[Saltychipmunk]

the real issue is the heat capacity is too high and the he reduction rate of heat sinks is too low which promotes alphaing until you reach your 90+ heat threshold and then hiding behind a mountain or building or bush or something.

Thus the only way to really reign in the alpha game play is too
1 make it so firing high damage alphas more than once in quick succession is naturally unrealistic
2 make is so firing normal amounts of weapons is actually sustainable.

seems simple to me. make heat sinks cool more
and cut the heat capacity sharply.

It wont totally remove the alphas from the game since there is no way to remove alphas entirely without breaking the heat system.

but it would make builds that have lower alphas but more resources spent on heat managemant etc viable

heck it would even make ghost heat unnecessary. if we were to say half current heat capacity it would make it almost impossible to fire over say 40 heat twice without shutting down or taking internal damage

Edited by Saltychipmunk, 02 May 2016 - 07:21 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Saltychipmunk, on 02 May 2016 - 07:18 AM, said:

the real issue is the heat capacity is too high and the he reduction rate of heat sinks is too low which promotes alphaing until you reach your 90+ heat threshold and then hiding behind a mountain or building or bush or something.

Thus the only way to really reign in the alpha game play is too
1 make it so firing high damage alphas more than once in quick succession is naturally unrealistic
2 make is so firing normal amounts of weapons is actually sustainable.

seems simple to me. make heat sinks cool more
and cut the heat capacity sharply.

It wont totally remove the alphas from the game since there is no way to remove alphas entirely without breaking the heat system.

but it would make builds that have lower alphas but more resources spent on heat managemant etc viable

heck it would even make ghost heat unnecessary. if we were to say half current heat capacity it would make it almost impossible to fire over say 40 heat twice without shutting down or taking internal damage

Oh you mean like how it worked in all Mechwarrior titles prior to MWO where they arbitrarily ****** with it for some reason?

[Gas Guzzler]

QuantumButler, on 02 May 2016 - 07:18 AM, said:

How about we ditch arbitrary balance systems like ghost heat and ghost head 2.0, and we all just get good and deal with it?

This is an idea I can get behind!

Seriously folks, if you get killed in a couple seconds you screwed up. It's not complicated, just learn from it and don't put yourself in that situation next time.

[DrxAbstract]

So out of curiosity, what would happen if all of these things happened at once:

1. Cap Lasers to their current Maximum Effective Range with no over-reach.

2. Cap Projectiles(Including PPCs) to their Maximum Effective Range plus 25% extra for 25% reduced damage.

3. Remove Critical Bonus Damage to Internal Structure.

4. Increase Component HP 50% (150% for Gauss).

5. Cap Component Criticals to 1 instead of 3.

6. Lower SRM Damage to 2.0/missile, Increase Component Crit Chance 25% and give them a consistent, static spread throughout the entirety of their range.

7. Raise Machine Guns to 1.35 DPS, Increase Component Crit Chance 5% and reduce their CoF by 50%.

8. Remove Weapon Cooldown and Range Modules (Refund C-Bill purchase and GXP training costs).

9. Add Turning Speed, Twist Speed, Torso Pitch+Yaw, Acceleration+Deceleration, Top Speed, Jump Jet(Thrust+Reserve) and Bonus Ammo Modules.

10. Institute true Double Heat Sinks, remove Heat Capacity from Heat Sinks, and cap Heat Capacity at (X).

11. Increase cooldown for all weapons by 25%.

And of course other things associated with the aforementioned list... but still curious.

[saKhan Steiner Lawl Kerensky]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 May 2016 - 11:05 PM, said:

maybe just make the lasers burn for a longer duration?

Suuuuure, because that worked last time... remember after clan mechs came out, and clan ER Lg Lasers having 2 second burn times thanks to Paul swinging his nerfhammer around? No one used them.

Nothing is more stupid than having to lightsaber your lasers in the air because of 11 other mechs moving around so you don't TK someone.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

saKhan Steiner Lawl Kerensky, on 02 May 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

Suuuuure, because that worked last time... remember after clan mechs came out, and clan ER Lg Lasers having 2 second burn times thanks to Paul swinging his nerfhammer around?

I'm pretty sure he is just referring to the worst offending lasers (mostly the IS wub), cERLL not being one of them.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 May 2016 - 07:43 AM.

[DJ Mitchell]

I´m a Battletech fan myself, but so far I´m quite happy with a lot this game has to offer. Of course I also see a lot of unused potential or room for improvement.

And at least in my book a lot could be achieved with simple steps. First one would be to throw serveral table top "Balance " issues out of the window like it was done in MW4. Keywords are here, IS-XL Engines blow up, locked Clan Equipment, Minimum Weapon Ranges, Gaus Rifle explosions, PPC HeatGen/dmg, low AC ammo/per ton values

Also I must say I don´t see the issue with "Alphawarrior" so far I thought we play with "walking tanks" and not with "walking battleships" -> so the average battle duration is fine.

[Saltychipmunk]

DrxAbstract, on 02 May 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

So out of curiosity, what would happen if all of these things happened at once:

1. Cap Lasers to their current Maximum Effective Range with no over-reach.

2. Cap Projectiles(Including PPCs) to their Maximum Effective Range plus 25% extra for 25% reduced damage.

3. Remove Critical Bonus Damage to Internal Structure.

4. Increase Component HP 50% (150% for Gauss).

5. Cap Component Criticals to 1 instead of 3.

6. Lower SRM Damage to 2.0/missile, Increase Component Crit Chance 25% and give them a consistent, static spread throughout the entirety of their range.

7. Raise Machine Guns to 1.35 DPS, Increase Component Crit Chance 5% and reduce their CoF by 50%.

8. Remove Weapon Cooldown and Range Modules (Refund C-Bill purchase and GXP training costs).

9. Add Turning Speed, Twist Speed, Torso Pitch+Yaw, Acceleration+Deceleration, Top Speed, Jump Jet(Thrust+Reserve) and Bonus Ammo Modules.

10. Institute true Double Heat Sinks, remove Heat Capacity from Heat Sinks, and cap Heat Capacity at (X).

11. Increase cooldown for all weapons by 25%.

And of course other things associated with the aforementioned list... but still curious.

and i would say too complex an answer to what is really a very simple problem, which already has a very simple solution floating around.

again the only issue right now is high alpha game play which is facilitated by the fact that you can fire high alphas multiple times. they just need to make firing high alphas multiple times impossible , no need for ghost heat , no need for nerfing weapons or 9 other little changes.

Edited by Saltychipmunk, 02 May 2016 - 08:12 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

saKhan Steiner Lawl Kerensky, on 02 May 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

Suuuuure, because that worked last time... remember after clan mechs came out, and clan ER Lg Lasers having 2 second burn times thanks to Paul swinging his nerfhammer around? No one used them.

Nothing is more stupid than having to lightsaber your lasers in the air because of 11 other mechs moving around so you don't TK someone.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 May 2016 - 07:42 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure he is just referring to the worst offending lasers (mostly the IS wub), cERLL not being one of them.

I was just throwing a bone to the people who get rekt by laser alphas. So if you have a Black Knight doing 58 damage at once the duration increases from .9 seconds to 1.2 seconds, but if it was only doing 40 damage it retains the .9 second duration. It was just to help people spread damage a little bit.

Frankly, I don't think anything like that is needed, but that would be a lesser of two evils thing for me.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 May 2016 - 08:12 AM.