482 replies to this topic

[H I A S]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

Nice.

It is just so obvious that so many people on this forum have no idea what competitive play looks like, but think they know how the game is balanced because they see people in Black Knights in the solo queue.

Send them records from MRBC. Simple as that.

https://mrbcleague.c...ndex.php?cid=84

https://mrbcleague.c...ndex.php?cid=85

They should watch it.

[Revis Volek]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 May 2016 - 04:33 AM, said:

Yet you propose a CoF and suddenly every 1337 tier amazing uber god mode mech pilot around the world shits themselves and suddenly cant play the game. Any system is fine, so long as it doesnt prevent the massing of pinpoint accurate firepower.

We ALREADY have a system for that....been here since i started playing MW.


Its called TORSO TWISTING!

[Gas Guzzler]

arivio, on 02 May 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

Send them records from MRBC. Simple as that.

https://mrbcleague.c...ndex.php?cid=84

https://mrbcleague.c...ndex.php?cid=85

They should watch it.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

[Davers]

I have a terrible idea for dealing with those one dimensional dakka assault builds! I call it "Ghost Draw"!

Every time you fire a ballistic weapon within 6 seconds it increases the 'power draw' of the weapon. So the first shot of, say an AC5 would cost the normal amount (say 1). The second shot would cost 2, and the third 4, etc.

PGI please feel free to steal this.

There, now I have ruined DPS builds for everyone too.

[Gas Guzzler]

Davers, on 02 May 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

I have a terrible idea for dealing with those one dimensional dakka assault builds! I call it "Ghost Draw"!

Every time you fire a ballistic weapon within 6 seconds it increases the 'power draw' of the weapon. So the first shot of, say an AC5 would cost the normal amount (say 1). The second shot would cost 2, and the third 4, etc.

PGI please feel free to steal this.

There, now I have ruined DPS builds for everyone too.

Yes there is always a band-aid mechanic, but how about we address the real problem and get better at the game, understanding positioning and cover, when to leave cover, when to re-position, when to torso-twist, etc.

Its like.. if the escalator breaks, do you stand there and wait for someone to fix it, or do you just walk up the steps?

[jaxjace]

I too am worried PGI will **** this up.

[Davers]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

Yes there is always a band-aid mechanic, but how about we address the real problem and get better at the game, understanding positioning and cover, when to leave cover, when to re-position, when to torso-twist, etc.

Its like.. if the escalator breaks, do you stand there and wait for someone to fix it, or do you just walk up the steps?

No, I go to the company's website and spend all day on the forums making posts about escalator repair, the benefits of elevators over escalators, how I am leaving the store (but may come back to check on the escalator's progress in a few months), and finally demanding that the company president fix it right now because I have spent money at his store.

Duh.

[Revis Volek]

Davers, on 02 May 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

No, I go to the company's website and spend all day on the forums making posts about escalator repair, the benefits of elevators over escalators, how I am leaving the store (but may come back to check on the escalator's progress in a few months), and finally demanding that the company president fix it right now because I have spent money at his store.

Duh.

That's because the escalator company has a proper R&D team and does that research on their own before releasing shoty, junky, easily broken escalators to the public.

They have no need to outsource things of this nature because they already handled it internally. PGI could take a note from a company like that i would imagine.

[Ultimax]

I Zeratul I, on 02 May 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

Do comp players do practice matches where they try LRM's and different weapon types?

Comp players will use whatever works best, even if that's LRMs.

What other comp teams are testing is usually done in private, so I have no idea but we have seen teams bring LRMs to varying effect - but the cases where they were "good" were very specific and niche.

Most cases they are waste of tonnage.

[VorpalAnvil]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Yeah, but with this crowd they'll probably find the water, drown in it and then come on here and whine about how OP liquids are.

[Alex Morgaine]

Thought on heat: would you accept gh over the current system of it applied to the weapon in use being refired in less then 10 seconds, say +1 heat (adjust to taste) per Refire of Any weapon?
I.e. fire all the lasers but it gets hotter per fire the more you fire them until you give it 10 seconds.
Ac2 and 5 would have issues the most, gauss would technically have a penalty with some weight ( If you keep using it you reset the 10 second cooldown after all) and lasers would self regulate without funky rules on how many of each weapon system you can handle before it starts making extra heat to balance. Obviously there would be gaming and abuses of this system (tbh is there any gamefree system? Even in tt all but the most insane Dhs equipped Mechs are heat neutral in all conditions unless lore says otherwise) but it's be something simple at least.

Edited by Frosty Brand, 02 May 2016 - 01:36 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

VorpalAnvil, on 02 May 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

Yeah, but with this crowd they'll probably find the water, drown in it and then come on here and whine about how OP liquids are so PGI will patch in floaties, spend the next several months inflating and deflating them and people will end up wearing them around their ankles anyway.

Fixed.

[Clownwarlord]

I wonder why everyone is calling this ghost heat 2.0 when Russ said when the power drawl system was first mentioned, "we are getting rid of ghost heat." So why is a power drawl system being refereed to as ghost heat? Two very different concepts.

As for balance in a game makes it easier for new players to enjoy the game. So for those who said balance can go on the back burner obviously never think of the survive-ability of a game when games like MWO and Wot and so on depend on continued new players.

A big issue since day one PGI has combated was high damage pin point alphas. ERPPC Gauss combo poptarts, 6 PPC or ERPPC Stalkers, and so on to our current laser vomit meta. To think for one moment that this is going to be game breaking is insanity because PGI has continually strive for balance against high damage pin point alphas. So why do you think this would break the game when past results shown that their changes to address this issue have not? By definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Laser Vomit and Torso Twist vs. Pop Tart.
Ever look at them and think they are similar? Let me explain, in pop tart you build it to jump, fire, and fall back into cover. This was done to take insignificant damage while still doing significant pin point damage. Now lets look at laser vomit vs torso twist. You walk out, fire, and then turn to shield your weapons and CT. While I agree you are taking the entire damage from the enemy you also are; doing significant pin point damage and then turning to disperse the damage you receive.

What do both of them have in common, significant pin point damage. Which as I eluded to has been an issue PGI has been trying to address for years (read above paragraph 3). But this time I figure I would try and point out your argument against this new system, because it prevents your significant pin point damage, was not listened to back then what makes you think PGI will listen to you now?

As for those who have already said for comp and meta they will just use the new best thing, well I agree with you 100%. Its not the first time meta was changed and doubt it will be the last. I also rather enjoy continual power swings because it forces people to keep up with the most relevant information and the ever changing meta. Sadly though the meta has been the same for a very long time now and made this game boring. This new power drawl system will change that to finding new better ways to kill your foes. So good luck everyone, and I can't wait to see what the new system will be like. (Just so long as it isn't like Paul-economics.)

Edited by Captain Luffy, 02 May 2016 - 02:20 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

Man, I remember when people were telling PGI in closed beta that pinpoint accuracy would just result in the same problem previous MW games had (boat massive alphas at the longest ranges possible). And now several years later, PGI has implemented ghost heat to try and fix the problem they created and is now working on power draw to further fix the problem they created...

And we are still stuck in laser vomit hell.

[AEgg]

Anything that makes it less effective to hide behind cover, poke, and hide again is good in my book. Waiting behind cover is boring, and it being so critically important is a big part of why the PUG queue can be miserable.

[oldradagast]

Jun Watarase, on 02 May 2016 - 02:24 PM, said:

Man, I remember when people were telling PGI in closed beta that pinpoint accuracy would just result in the same problem previous MW games had (boat massive alphas at the longest ranges possible). And now several years later, PGI has implemented ghost heat to try and fix the problem they created and is now working on power draw to further fix the problem they created...

And we are still stuck in laser vomit hell.

That's because too many people think instant convergence is skill and if you don't like the current system you're "a bad and bad at the game." This usually stems from a lack of any coherent argument against the facts, so they simply lash out.

Convergence is not skill. The most skilled and least skilled players in this game will, if they fire 3 pinpoint weapons of the same type at the same time have all their shots hit the exact same point. Therefore, by definition, convergence is not skill.

Those opposed to the ideas suggested simply don't get it: Nearly every balance problem caused in this game can be traced back to pinpoint, long-range damage:
- The peek-a-boo meta
- Laser vomit
- Ghost heat
- Ghost heat 2.0 (power draw)
- Hover jets (to stop the application of pinpoint long-range damage from mid-air)
- Gauss charge up
- PPC's sucking
- Mech viability depending to an absurd degree on hitboxes and hardpoint placement.

It should be obvious to anyone at this point that the idiotic ease with which one can apply insane amounts of damage at long-ranges to a single pixel is the noose around this game's neck. It defines everything - viable mechs, loadouts, the maps people want to play on, and all the nutty band-aid mechanics we're enduring. This has nothing to do with "git gud" because instance convergence has nothing to do with skill. It is simply a crutch that leads to low TTK and stale game play.

Edited by oldradagast, 02 May 2016 - 03:18 PM.

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 06:40 AM, said:

That idea isn't bad, but they won't do it. Also, the people whining about TTK who like to stand still would still get killed just as quickly. They won't be happy until you can only fire 2 medium lasers at a time, so they can have ample time to react without taking too much damage. LMAO.

Do you have any actual FACTS to back up the half-arsed attacks against anyone who's opposed to the current shallow meta and the band-aid "solutions." I doubt it. Just more of the same, "if you don't like the current meta, you must be a bad because I can't address the facts you posted so, uh, you suck."

The current meta is stupidly stale, and anyone should be able to figure out what by now. Anyone who honestly thinks a cone of fire or some other method of forcing a bit of damage scatter at long ranges will "remove skill from the game" or "make all my shots miss" is either being deliberately obtuse and ignoring the details of the suggested ideas or simply has no clue what actual skill is. Hint: It's not moving out from behind a rock and landing 40+ points of damage on target thanks to the magic of pixel perfect instance convergence, which any player can do on his first game.

Edited by oldradagast, 02 May 2016 - 03:26 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:

Do you have any actual FACTS to back up the half-arsed attacks against anyone who's opposed to the current shallow meta and the band-aid "solutions." I doubt it. Just more of the same, "if you don't like the current meta, you must be a bad because I can't address the facts you posted so, uh, you suck."

The current meta is stupidly stale, and anyone should be able to figure out what by now. Anyone who honestly thinks a cone of fire or some other method of forcing a bit of damage scatter at long ranges will "remove skill from the game" or "make all my shots miss" is either being deliberately obtuse and ignoring the details of the suggested ideas or simply has no clue what actual skill is. Hint: It's not moving out from behind a rock and landing 40+ points of damage on target thanks to the magic of pixel perfect instance convergence, which any player can do on his first game.

That is a fact though. How is this meta shallow? There is more to this game than just hide and laser vomit, and that's whats missing. I have yet to see someone advocate power draw AND ALSO acknowledge the SRM meta, or the dakka meta that is in game today. Its always "anything to curb laser vomit, please", which is a clear indication of a lack of understanding, simply complaining about all the Black Knights that you see in the solo queue.

If you haven't experienced the other "metas" that is on you, but go watch some MRBC streams and you will see all the SRMs and autocannons in use. As has been said many times, LRMs are just about the only weapon system that you won't find (and you actually will once in a long while, whether or not it was a good choice is another question).

Hide and poke play-styles come from lack of coordination. Solo public queue games are typically either hide and poke or nascar. This is a product of lack of coordination, as is the prevalence of laser vomit.

I don't know why its so hard to figure out. If you walk out and get hit by 6 mechs and die quickly its your own fault. Accept it and move on, don't poke into a firing line like that. Shifting the meta to DPS weapons isn't going to help you in that situation.

[Gas Guzzler]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 03:16 PM, said:

That's because too many people think instant convergence is skill and if you don't like the current system you're "a bad and bad at the game." This usually stems from a lack of any coherent argument against the facts, so they simply lash out.

No, it stems from the people advocating systems like power draw not listening to the arguments and just saying "No no no I lost CT armor quickly fix the game".

Instant convergence is not a skill. (For the record, I am not even against delayed convergence, but I don't consider it a possibility given PGI's issues with it.) Spreading damage well is. Being shrewd with positioning is also a skill, and requires you to THINK. Think about where you are going, where you can be shot from, any information you have on the enemy team position, and make an educated decision about whether or not to move out from your current position or find another way. Think about what you are doing, instead of just mindlessly moving around without paying attention and then getting angry when you get killed and say it was the games fault.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 May 2016 - 03:50 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

Jun Watarase, on 02 May 2016 - 02:24 PM, said:

Man, I remember when people were telling PGI in closed beta that pinpoint accuracy would just result in the same problem previous MW games had (boat massive alphas at the longest ranges possible).

That wasnt a thing in MW1, 2 or 3. Didnt actually rear its ugly head until MW4, in point of fact.

MW2 Netmech typically had Leagues with build guidelines and, combined with the Mechlab structuring, made such massive alphas theoretically possible, but in practice very impractical. The most common builds had relatively low Alphas, moderate DPS and stacked to the brim with Heat Sinks for maximum dissipation. This was probably due to 28.8k and 56k modems being the pinnacle of residential data transfer at the time and lack of assisted hit detection (HSR)... So they utilized Small Lasers/Pulses and Medium Lasers/Pulses capable of prolonged firefighting and multiple salvos in quick succession to score as many hits as possible while 'lag shooting'... You can imagine why 'High Alpha+Heat' builds were unfavorable in such an environment.

Even without latency, I doubt things would have gone in a different direction considering you could kill a Direwolf in a few moments with one of the aforementioned loadouts without overheating... and long-range weapons in MW2 were terribly inefficient (Except for LRMs), SRMs sucked, etc... But Machine Guns were pretty powerful! They also had respawns and small teams.


*Nostalgic*