482 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Davers, on 02 May 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

Devil's Advocate here-

If MRBC had matches without the self imposed restrictions, would we still have all those metas? If you could bring 3 or 4 Black Knights in every single match, for instance.

Don't bite my head off.

Considering that some matches have 0 Black Knights even when heavies are allowed, no you wouldn't bring 3 or 4 Black Knights in every situation. Black Knights will get overwhelmed in a brawl and will be restricted to sub-triple LPL DPS. Better off with SRMs and a big ballistic if available. The thing with competitive matches, is its possible to force a brawl. Its much harder to do that in a solo drop because you don't have your team to back you up.

I'm not trying to bite anyone's head off..

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 May 2016 - 04:17 PM.

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

Why is it vital? I don't know if its vital but it certainly isn't an issue. Especially because with how convergence works, it is possible to not get hit in the same spot by the dual gauss.

Um, what?

Ok, maybe you honestly don't understand the current game mechanics; if so, no big deal and I retract my claws.

Currently - unless the game has changed - convergence is INSTANT. So, yes, if several Gauss rounds (or PPC's, or AC rounds, or whatever) are fired at the same time, they will ALL hit the same location EVERY TIME. The only exception would be if one of the shots runs into something while in mid-flight.

You know that Pinpoint skill? It actually does nothing because convergence is instantaneous.

Honestly, if the convergence you seem to think exists actually DID exist, the game would be better for it and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Edited by oldradagast, 02 May 2016 - 04:18 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Davers, on 02 May 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

If MRBC had matches without the self imposed restrictions, would we still have all those metas? If you could bring 3 or 4 Black Knights in every single match, for instance.

Don't bite my head off.

What restrictions are we talking, class? duplicates?

If there were no restrictions period it would be all about Maulers and Atlases. If there were a tonnage limit, you would still see brawlers, especially on the lighter drops. Hell on Caustic, brawlers worked on the fattest drop of the series.

The restrictions are more for mech diversity, not strat diversity.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 May 2016 - 04:21 PM.

[Revis Volek]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

They are still, technically, part of the pinpoint meta, hence some limitations applied by ghost heat, etc.

Again, can anyone who defends this explain WHY the game so badly needs to have all damage applied at all ranges instantly to a single pixel? Because based on the game history, this mindset has certainly not helped.

I get it - you like it that way. Fine, but the problems it's caused (no, I'm not listing them again - I'd like to think people will actually read posts for something other than a excuse to pick a fight) should cast some doubt on that viewpoint. And as for the mindless attempts at personal attacks, well... have fun with that.

But the non pin point meta is still affected by the same rules just different limitations and values applied.

There is still ghost heat on those weapons if it was deemed necessary so now you are just arguing weather or not you agree with PGI's current idea of balance. They have set the limitations and they think that x amount of Pin point weapons get limits and x amount of non pin point get this limit.

Convergence has been the same since day one, i dont see it changing honestly but i feel that it would create a backlash and would also make your game a lot tougher for those lacking in dexterity. Maybe PGI doesnt want it to be that intense? I have never heard or seen and answer either way out of them on the matter.

[Gas Guzzler]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

They are still, technically, part of the pinpoint meta, hence some limitations applied by ghost heat, etc.

Again, can anyone who defends this explain WHY the game so badly needs to have all damage applied at all ranges instantly to a single pixel? Because based on the game history, this mindset has certainly not helped.

I get it - you like it that way. Fine, but the problems it's caused (no, I'm not listing them again - I'd like to think people will actually read posts for something other than a excuse to pick a fight) should cast some doubt on that viewpoint. And as for the mindless attempts at personal attacks, well... have fun with that.

Dude I read the list. That doesn't mean I accept that as evidence to show that we need power draw, which is what this thread is about. Not convergence, if you didn't notice.

I just don't see why we need more mechanics to limit things. With thoughtful play, TTK is perfectly reasonable, and makes thinking about what you are doing much more important.

I don't even think peaking behind rocks all day is fun either, good thing that doesn't happen all day. Typically if you are stagnant for too long the other team will flank you and you'll be screwed.

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 04:17 PM, said:

Considering that some matches have 0 Black Knights even when heavies are allowed, no you wouldn't bring 3 or 4 Black Knights in every situation. Black Knights will get overwhelmed in a brawl and will be restricted to sub-triple LPL DPS. Better off with SRMs and a big ballistic if available. The thing with competitive matches, is its possible to force a brawl. Its much harder to do that in a solo drop because you don't have your team to back you up.

I'm not trying to bite anyone's head off..

Ok, I'll grant you that, too, and I probably should have said from what perspective I was speaking. I mostly solo-queue or play in small groups in the group queue. I hate CW and my unit is too small to field large teams most of the time. So, as we both agree, in the environment in which I play, hide and poke is the name of the game... and it is a game that has grown very shallow and stale.

Perhaps I should have phrased this better - the long-range pinpoint meta dominates in uncoordinated environments

However, since that is the environment in which most people play, please try to understand their frustration with it. That being said, I agree that changes made to improve that environment should NOT break the more coordinated environments.

[Revis Volek]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 04:17 PM, said:

Um, what?

Ok, maybe you honestly don't understand the current game mechanics; if so, no big deal and I retract my claws.

Currently - unless the game has changed - convergence is INSTANT. So, yes, if several Gauss rounds (or PPC's, or AC rounds, or whatever) are fired at the same time, they will ALL hit the same location EVERY TIME. The only exception would be if one of the shots runs into something while in mid-flight.

You know that Pinpoint skill? It actually does nothing because convergence is instantaneous.

Honestly, if the convergence you seem to think exists actually DID exist, the game would be better for it and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Its not perfectly instant, when running 150 KPH in a light going sideways to the shooter you can only get hit by ONE gauss round from a dual shot. If they are behind you with the shot specifically.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 04:17 PM, said:

Currently - unless the game has changed - convergence is INSTANT. So, yes, if several Gauss rounds (or PPC's, or AC rounds, or whatever) are fired at the same time, they will ALL hit the same location EVERY TIME.

This is very misleading, especially at longer ranges, thanks to the fact you have to lead with projectiles, meaning your weapons WONT hit the same place.

[Gas Guzzler]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 04:17 PM, said:

Um, what?

Ok, maybe you honestly don't understand the current game mechanics; if so, no big deal and I retract my claws.

Currently - unless the game has changed - convergence is INSTANT. So, yes, if several Gauss rounds (or PPC's, or AC rounds, or whatever) are fired at the same time, they will ALL hit the same location EVERY TIME. The only exception would be if one of the shots runs into something while in mid-flight.

You know that Pinpoint skill? It actually does nothing because convergence is instantaneous.

Honestly, if the convergence you seem to think exists actually DID exist, the game would be better for it and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Well, I do understand all of that, but taking it a step further, the weapons converge at the range your reticle is at. If you have to lead your target, then they will converge at a point BEYOND your target, meaning non-pinpoint. It seems like for something like a Gauss rifle that isn't as much of an issue, and it isn't as bad as PPCs, but I have DEFINITELY seen dual gauss hit multiple components. I'm not making it up, it happens. Also, if the opponents has his arm towards you will probably score an arm hit, which is non-lethal.

[Deathlike]

Davers, on 02 May 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

Devil's Advocate here-

If MRBC had matches without the self imposed restrictions, would we still have all those metas? If you could bring 3 or 4 Black Knights in every single match, for instance.

Don't bite my head off.

The meta would exist, but the meta doesn't work in every situation - you have to play the situation correctly with what you have.

If the meta worked in virtually every situation, then it would actually be OP. Fortunately, that's currently not the case here (there will be situations where something favors you, but others it wouldn't be as effective).

Using a Black Knight in a sniping duel (with ERLL from either side) would probably be less than effective until you close the gap... it depends if the opponents can prevent you from reaching them (and it's happened before).

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 04:21 PM, said:

I don't even think peaking behind rocks all day is fun either, good thing that doesn't happen all day. Typically if you are stagnant for too long the other team will flank you and you'll be screwed.

Ok, valid point - I admit that I probably showed my claws too soon on this one. Sorry, but I just get really tired of folks who assume anyone who asks for change is "just a bad player."

I think we simply play in different environments, so what you're seeing is not what I'm seeing. I mostly play in uncoordinated PUG games, where the long-range pinpoint meta dominates to a stupid degree. I get the impression you play in a more diverse environment, which is better for your interest in the game and explains why you are not seeing the same horribly stagnant game play I'm seeing.

Fair enough.

Edited by oldradagast, 02 May 2016 - 04:25 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 04:21 PM, said:

Ok, I'll grant you that, too, and I probably should have said from what perspective I was speaking. I mostly solo-queue or play in small groups in the group queue. I hate CW and my unit is too small to field large teams most of the time. So, as we both agree, in the environment in which I play, hide and poke is the name of the game... and it is a game that has grown very shallow and stale.

Perhaps I should have phrased this better - the long-range pinpoint meta dominates in uncoordinated environments

However, since that is the environment in which most people play, please try to understand their frustration with it. That being said, I agree that changes made to improve that environment should NOT break the more coordinated environments.

Well, yeah, that's the tricky part. If you balance around one, there will be a clear advantage in the other. That being said, if you have a large enough group and everyone is in SRM brawlers, its alot of fun, and you dominate, because unless its a really favorable map for mid range poke, its extremely hard for Black Knights to maintain their ~440-500 meter sweet spot and do significant damage.

With that in mind, the long range pinpoint you speak of is actually ~500 meters. Black Knight is the heavy king right now, and that is where it wants to be. Dual gauss has fallen out of favor a bit because of its decreased DPS, so 500 m is where all the laser vomit wants to be. Not exactly long range...

[Deathlike]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 04:21 PM, said:

Perhaps I should have phrased this better - the long-range pinpoint meta dominates in uncoordinated environments

Lots of things work in uncoordinated environments. Shoving LBX into bad players is easy... it doesn't make LBX an actual meta though.

I still see players though trying to shoot MGs into external armor though... so I don't think that can be helped though...

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 04:24 PM, said:

Well, I do understand all of that, but taking it a step further, the weapons converge at the range your reticle is at. If you have to lead your target, then they will converge at a point BEYOND your target, meaning non-pinpoint. It seems like for something like a Gauss rifle that isn't as much of an issue, and it isn't as bad as PPCs, but I have DEFINITELY seen dual gauss hit multiple components. I'm not making it up, it happens. Also, if the opponents has his arm towards you will probably score an arm hit, which is non-lethal.

Hmmm... Ok, you may be right on that, in which case I apologize for being too quick on the attacks.

Here's the thing:
- I could have sworn PGI said that convergence and host-state rewind were not compatible
- The pinpoint skill does nothing, as PGI claims

From those two statements, and just generally observing the game, I assumed - and perhaps incorrectly - that barring extremely close range shots where weapon position does matter, convergence was effectively instant and pixel-perfect. While it may still be pixel perfect, apparently the "instant" part is questionable.

I'd love to see some video links to this - honest, I'm not being sarcastic or trying to pick a fight. If I could learn something from it, it would be worth my time to see them.

Thanks for correcting me on this - I learned something new today

[Gas Guzzler]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 04:24 PM, said:

Ok, valid point - I admit that I probably showed my claws too soon on this one. Sorry, but I just get really tired of folks who assume anyone who asks for change is "just a bad player."

I think we simply play in different environments, so what you're seeing is not what I'm seeing. I mostly play in uncoordinated PUG games, where the long-range pinpoint meta dominates to a stupid degree. I get the impression you play in a more diverse environment, which is better for your interest in the game and explains why you are not seeing the same horribly stagnant game play I'm seeing.

Fair enough.

That's probably true. And I acknowledge that I also gravitate towards the mid to long range mechs when I drop solo, just because I understand that it will put me in a position that I can always do damage, and don't have to rely on my team sharing damage with me.

I just feel that when you apply teamwork and coordination, we have options! That hasn't been the case in the past, and I like it. Nerfing lasers because its the best middle of the road, can handle most situations, option in the solo queue just seems to be a shame. Not to mention, what the hell can we do with the Kodiak with their 9 energy hardpoints?

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

Well, yeah, that's the tricky part. If you balance around one, there will be a clear advantage in the other. That being said, if you have a large enough group and everyone is in SRM brawlers, its alot of fun, and you dominate, because unless its a really favorable map for mid range poke, its extremely hard for Black Knights to maintain their ~440-500 meter sweet spot and do significant damage.

With that in mind, the long range pinpoint you speak of is actually ~500 meters. Black Knight is the heavy king right now, and that is where it wants to be. Dual gauss has fallen out of favor a bit because of its decreased DPS, so 500 m is where all the laser vomit wants to be. Not exactly long range...

Let's back this up a bit before things turned sour. We've talked about cone of fire vs. the current systems, and I see how you feel about them, and I now understand where you're coming from.

What would YOU like to see change, if anything, regarding how the meta works?

I'm honestly asking and am not trying to pick a fight. I want to know where you play in the game what is stale or needs work since we're almost playing different games based on the environments in which we play.

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 04:30 PM, said:

I just feel that when you apply teamwork and coordination, we have options! That hasn't been the case in the past, and I like it. Nerfing lasers because its the best middle of the road, can handle most situations, option in the solo queue just seems to be a shame. Not to mention, what the hell can we do with the Kodiak with their 9 energy hardpoints?

Valid point, and note that while I like the cone of fire or some similar idea, I HATE weapon specific nerfs because the end result is either nobody uses the weapon OR the only way for it be effective is to boat it, which is the problem the game has (at least in the PUG queue.)

Edited by oldradagast, 02 May 2016 - 04:32 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

Hmmm... Ok, you may be right on that, in which case I apologize for being too quick on the attacks.

Here's the thing:
- I could have sworn PGI said that convergence and host-state rewind were not compatible
- The pinpoint skill does nothing, as PGI claims

From those two statements, and just generally observing the game, I assumed - and perhaps incorrectly - that barring extremely close range shots where weapon position does matter, convergence was effectively instant and pixel-perfect. While it may still be pixel perfect, apparently the "instant" part is questionable.

I'd love to see some video links to this - honest, I'm not being sarcastic or trying to pick a fight. If I could learn something from it, it would be worth my time to see them.

Thanks for correcting me on this - I learned something new today

Well, alot of times if a target is standing still, it IS pixel perfect, you aren't wrong there. Its wherever your reticle is. If a light mech is running at 700m, and its back drop is 1500m away, your dual gauss Jager (for example) is going to have TERRIBLE convergence (you might have 1 gauss hit and the other completely miss). But the Dire Wolf standing there staring at you, yeah pixel perfect.

Lasers do the same thing, but because they are hitscan it isn't an issue so you aren't really wrong with the mechanic, it just converges at wherever your reticle is range-wise.

All I meant was, there are situations where movement causes the convergence to be slightly off, so you get damage on different components, and it seems to happen relatively often.

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 04:34 PM, said:

Well, alot of times if a target is standing still, it IS pixel perfect, you aren't wrong there. Its wherever your reticle is. If a light mech is running at 700m, and its back drop is 1500m away, your dual gauss Jager (for example) is going to have TERRIBLE convergence (you might have 1 gauss hit and the other completely miss). But the Dire Wolf standing there staring at you, yeah pixel perfect.

Lasers do the same thing, but because they are hitscan it isn't an issue so you aren't really wrong with the mechanic, it just converges at wherever your reticle is range-wise.

All I meant was, there are situations where movement causes the convergence to be slightly off, so you get damage on different components, and it seems to happen relatively often.

Fair enough. I admit I haven't watched anywhere near enough game footage, and that's probably why I missed this. Normally, the frustration factor or obvious nature of pinpoint damage comes into play against stationary or slow-moving targets since it's obvious that everything hit one spot. Against a target moving, I'm too busy tracking it and trying to get some damage in to realize that not every shot hit, or hit the same location.

Hmmm...

[Luca M Pryde]

Sorry, I got lost after reading so much on this thread so I am just going to summarise what I said in another thread.

If mwo used an energy bar that prevents alpha strikes after it is filled which would be increased when you fire weapons especially when moving at the same time. I would suggest missile weapons would not raise the energy bar by much but would have slower reload and /or tracking times.
Would you guys think this is a good thing? What benefits / flaws do you see? If done right I believe it could be good.

[Mister Blastman]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 04:17 PM, said:

Um, what?

Ok, maybe you honestly don't understand the current game mechanics; if so, no big deal and I retract my claws.

Currently - unless the game has changed - convergence is INSTANT. So, yes, if several Gauss rounds (or PPC's, or AC rounds, or whatever) are fired at the same time, they will ALL hit the same location EVERY TIME. The only exception would be if one of the shots runs into something while in mid-flight.

You know that Pinpoint skill? It actually does nothing because convergence is instantaneous.

Honestly, if the convergence you seem to think exists actually DID exist, the game would be better for it and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Nah what he's talking about is how convergence is calculated not by what you are targeting (i.e. "r") but where your crosshair is, and when you lead ahead of a moving target, the shots converge to whatever your crosshair is over which often is far more distant than the moving 'mech you are leading, thus creating spread upon impact.

This DOES happen, and happens all the time with projectiles.

edit: This is also why the top tier jump sniping robits had their projectile hardpoints as close together as possible--why the VTR DS was superior to all other VTRs and why the HGN 733C was dominant.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 02 May 2016 - 04:42 PM.