482 replies to this topic

[Clownwarlord]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

Meanwhile getting ripped to shreds by someone with UAC5s.

GG.

Yeah and Mauler and King Crab can explode and they are slow. The only other mech in game now is the Dire wolf that can do a decent quad or more, and then that is even slow. So yeah GG light food.

So yeah if you want to continue to play this is better we can continue because it keeps going round and round. Except the pin point high alpha which is currently the meta and getting very boring.

Edited by Captain Luffy, 02 May 2016 - 08:32 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Captain Luffy, on 02 May 2016 - 08:31 PM, said:

Yeah and Mauler and King Crab can explode and they are slow. The only other mech in game now is the Dire wolf that can do a decent quad or more, and then that is even slow.

Dakka Mauler > Dakka Whale and both are equally slow but are still some of the most dominant assaults next to Atlases and the Banshee/Battlemaster.

[Gas Guzzler]

Captain Luffy, on 02 May 2016 - 08:31 PM, said:

Yeah and Mauler and King Crab can explode and they are slow. The only other mech in game now is the Dire wolf that can do a decent quad or more, and then that is even slow. So yeah GG light food.

So yeah if you want to continue to play this is better we can continue because it keeps going round and round. Except the pin point high alpha which is currently the meta and getting very boring.

No, you are incorrect.

Pin point alpha is competitive, so is dakka, and so is SRMs. It isn't the only "meta".

And yeah, except I'm not just saying "Oh lights will shoot you in the back", I'm saying that if you are standing in the open firing lasers continuously, there are ballistic mechs like the Black Widow (not that slow) and the JM6-DD (not that slow) that will significantly out DPS you. Its fact that if you have to stare with lasers or stare with dakka, the dakka will dominate easily.

[Khobai]

Quote

Dakka Mauler > Dakka Whale and both are equally slow but are still some of the most dominant assaults next to Atlases and the Banshee/Battlemaster.

If youre slow youre automatically not dominant.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 02 May 2016 - 09:06 PM, said:

If youre slow youre automatically not dominant.

Maulers are pretty awesome. They are top flight assaults.

[Karl Streiger]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 09:07 PM, said:

Maulers are pretty awesome. They are top flight assaults.

Hm well time to dust them off.

Anyhow afar from the ongoing discussion of competive and peoples ideas about meta, we shouldn't forget one thing.

Any additional artifical increase of Ttk will affect good and bad players alike.
It doesn't matter if you cone or alpha stagger (althoug i like my idea of course) - in the end its the same as it is still the same game as it is now.

It would not solve system problems - a inferior 12 Small Pulse Laser Build would still be superior to the Dual ERPPC build and LRMs will still be bad even when all weapons are not accurate enough it could turn lrm into meta weapons - but given the game mechanics of LRMs this is hardly something anybody can support

[DeathlyEyes]

How to increase ttk:

Lower the number of mechs shooting the same mech. 12 mechs shooting 1 mech regardless of what is done will likely kill it. It also leads to one sided matches after one player goes down.

Drop back to 8v8 or even 5v5. Making objective based game modes like conquest still result in deathball death matches. The only thing I can think of to allow big games is a mode like domination with several small cap spots. If PGI goes this route, balanced cap zones with equal cover and similar or equal distances will be necessary.

Honestly I'd like to see 5v5 or 8v8 with slightly less armor to put more emphasis on individual skill.

Edited by DeathlyEyes, 02 May 2016 - 09:40 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Lower the number of mechs shooting the same mech. 12 mechs shooting 1 mech regardless of what is done will likely kill it. It also leads to one sided matches after one player goes down.

This. 12v12 is part of the whole problem. Quickplay gamemodes need to be 8v8 again.

One of the big differences between tabletop battletech and MWO is how many mechs you can cram in one area. In tabletop youre limited to one mech per hex which really makes focus fire much more difficult.

But in MWO mechs can be shoulder to shoulder firing on the same target. So focus fire is much easier to pull off in MWO compared to battletech.

The armor system in battletech was simply not designed to handle 12 mechs firing at 1 mech. Even doubled it cant handle it. Going back to 8v8 for quickplay has always been one of the most logical solutions to fixing TTK.

PGI even knows this thats why their tournament is 8v8 not 12v12. Because TTK is so pathetic in 12v12 that it would make for a terrible tournament. Not only is it too many players for commentators to keep track of but mechs also die so fast that it just isnt enjoyable to watch. 8v8 is way more fun because mechs dont get completely instakilled by focus fire.

Edited by Khobai, 02 May 2016 - 09:49 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

Khobai, on 02 May 2016 - 09:41 PM, said:

This. 12v12 is part of the whole problem. Quickplay gamemodes need to be 8v8 again.

Or really old school with 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4... with game lobbies.

[Gas Guzzler]

Karl Streiger, on 02 May 2016 - 09:30 PM, said:

Any additional artifical increase of Ttk will affect good and bad players alike.
It doesn't matter if you cone or alpha stagger (althoug i like my idea of course) - in the end its the same as it is still the same game as it is now.

People are expecting "alpha stagger power draw" to actually have a noticeable affect on TTK. Its really just going to shift the meta to more DPS type weapons, that are already competitive, but will dominate when there are no alpha type builds to counter them.

Its a hole rock/paper/scissors thing. If you remove scissors, paper becomes OP.

[lshtaria]

This game has so many ghosts in it we'll have to start doing a ouija board soon.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 02 May 2016 - 09:06 PM, said:

If youre slow youre automatically not dominant.

Says someone who has never played comp recently.....I know you still think assaults are worthless, but being slow is only bad in PUGs and even then that hasn't stopped me from getting 1000+ games in a dakka Whale/Mauler in a PUG match.

Also being slow doesn't mean you can't be dominant, there are plenty of powerful positions that allow you to become an area of denial "turret" and control the game. Just because you think the game is all about NASCAR doesn't mean it carries over throughout other styles of play.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 May 2016 - 10:21 PM.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 May 2016 - 10:16 PM, said:

Says someone who has never played comp recently.....I know you still think assaults are worthless, but being slow is only bad in PUGs and even then that hasn't stopped me from getting 1000+ games in a dakka Whale/Mauler in a PUG match.

Not really dakka, but the LBX Dires are hilarious to play in PUGs.

[Karl Streiger]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 09:52 PM, said:

People are expecting "alpha stagger power draw" to actually have a noticeable affect on TTK. Its really just going to shift the meta to more DPS type weapons, that are already competitive, but will dominate when there are no alpha type builds to counter them.

Its a hole rock/paper/scissors thing. If you remove scissors, paper becomes OP.

Maybe power draw limits the DPS builds either. At least this would be better than just hitting the Alpha Strike again and again.
Not to mention what will happen to Alpha Strikes of an AS7-S....

Simple example:
I had once a espresso machine...it has got a water tank and delivered hot pressurized water.
Wasn't fast so the creation of a single espresso needed some time.

Ok now you may be able to add multiple nozzles to brew coffee faster - but it wouldn't be an espresso (alpha)
And maybe you would increase the water tank to have more coffee - but it wouldn't be hot enough (DPS)

So in terms of the game we don't want tepid coffee we want a perfect espresso.

This means we need Alpha Strikes - but with a increased difficulty and risk-reward system, the risk of DPS heavy builds is already the increased window of attack - don't think there is more need to tweak things.

There two limiters in game - ammunition and heat both systems are not working optimal, it is necessary to rework both and you don'T need any additional hard coded limiter

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 May 2016 - 10:49 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Whatever they do, this game really needs to return to the feeling of driving a big battlemech. Where we could freely wander around the battlefield, feeling like were driving 30-50 foot high machines of war, not afraid of anything, able to meander as we please shooting each other up.

THis game's feeling is so goddamn bad, we have packs of battlemechs who huddle around a corner, cuz everyone knows full well if they walk around it they die instantly......this game has a ****** way to fast TTK that pretty much makes any kind of cowarding camping play pointless and sheer death...

Lets return to the days when you actually had battlemechs walking around at long ranges shooting each other, circling of doom, all that fun stuff that happened in MW3-4 and so on. Even MW2, it wasnt about camping behind a building taking pot shots, you freely moved about shooting your enemy...

MWO...its just ugh....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 03 May 2016 - 02:42 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

LordKnightFandragon, on 03 May 2016 - 02:40 AM, said:

Whatever they do, this game really needs to return to the feeling of driving a big battlemech. Where we could freely wander around the battlefield, feeling like were driving 30-50 foot high machines of war, not afraid of anything, able to meander as we please shooting each other up.

THis game's feeling is so goddamn bad, we have packs of battlemechs who huddle around a corner, cuz everyone knows full well if they walk around it they die instantly......this game has a ****** way to fast TTK that pretty much makes any kind of cowarding camping play pointless and sheer death...

Lets return to the days when you actually had battlemechs walking around at long ranges shooting each other, circling of doom, all that fun stuff that happened in MW3-4 and so on. Even MW2, it wasnt about camping behind a building taking pot shots, you freely moved about shooting your enemy...

MWO...its just ugh....

You know we only have BattleMechs fighting BattleMechs so you don't have a comparison.
Nobody dies when he moves through open space - they die because they move in the wrong moment and at the wrong position. You would even loose your BattleMech in TT when you try the same stunt.

And the coward corner camping is not a balance issue but because of people don't know anything about tactics.

About TTK.... its not short - if it would been short i wouldn't be able to dive right into a formation of 8 Mechs -5 of them assaults and fix them in place for several seconds.
And before you are saying - pah Hit Reg Lights... i don't drive lights -the last >6 vs ME was happening with a CN9-AH, MAD-BH and usually a AS7-S

I know that part of the increased TTK in those situation is based on the fact that i try to use body shields - while shooting at every body... people in pugs do stupid things when you shoot them.... for example turning in place and running the other direction when you start to shot them with LRMs at 170m

Edited by Karl Streiger, 03 May 2016 - 02:56 AM.

[oldradagast]

There are a lot of issues in play here:

- Technically, dakka is still close to "pinpoint long range meta" since the autocannon rounds have good range and hit close to all on the same spot depending upon convergence, the target's speed, etc.

- Assaults are certainly competitive, particularly in coordinated game play. Admittedly, I mostly PUG where what's competitive depends heavily upon what the herd of cats decides to do, but I wouldn't say auto-cannon boats are not competitive

- SRM meta does exist, though it - again - takes somewhat more coordination from the team to get the SRM brawlers into position and more patience from the brawler to know when to strike. Those traits are less common in the PUG queue

- Despite the debate of the exact type of pinpoint damage (lasers vs. autocannons, etc.) and the exact nature of convergence (still exists, though only really matters if you and/or the target are really moving), I think most would agree that TTK is on the low side in this game. While I don't think anybody is looking to make mechs into "gods" that simply ignore damage, the game is brutally punishing of mistakes, which encourages the "hide behind a rock" game play we all are so tired of, particularly in the PUG queue where getting a coordinated push takes an act of Congress.

- 12 vs. 12 is part of the problem, definitely. I don't know why they haven't gone back to 8 vs. 8. I also don't know why they haven't just mixed it up a bunch, with 4 vs 4, 6 vs. 6, 8 vs. 8, etc. Even if played out on the same maps, you'd get different styles of game play, which would make the game more interesting, and it wouldn't take much in the way of resources to create such options; it's not like creating entirely new maps, game modes, etc.

[oldradagast]

Ultimax, on 02 May 2016 - 06:41 PM, said:

My problem with your posts is how unrealistic statements like these are.


Unless your enemies are complete terribads, good luck keeping lasers at long range "pixel perfect" on a target with a pulse, much less one who actually is good at the game.

I should have been more clear: the use of long-range, pixel perfect damage in the case of lasers basically allows "free damage" all on a single pixel. Sure, not ALL the laser damage ends up on that pixel if the target moves or twists, but the point is that it is still effectively a bunch of free damage since the range is good, the convergence is the best in the game, and the flight time is zero since it is a hitscan weapon. Meanwhile, firing back with projectile weapons gives the target time to move out of the way or twist (Gauss excluded since it is almost hitscan at its speed in most engagements.) That's the point I'm driving at with regard to lasers. I'm not saying "nerf them into the ground," but the facts about their performance are hard to disagree with, hence laser vomit meta.

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

Meanwhile getting ripped to shreds by someone with UAC5s.

GG.

This is why I question any TTK increasing system based on heat, for example. Sure it will end the laser vomit meta - and turn it into autocannons and Gauss in particular since Gauss is effectively zero heat. Ok, sure - they could add in yet another form of Ghost Heat on Gauss to sort of make it work, but then it would be back to where we started, effectively.

[Livewyr]

So many mechs are DoA because of pinperfect damage- like most mediums.

A medium mech cannot afford to be slow or even only moderately fast- because it will have an entire side of the mech ripped off by the alpha strike meta... in one hit. (Or even if it is only left at cherry red torso, that mechs is combat ineffective because upon exposure it just takes a mouse click with a laser to cut it off.)

EDIT: The pin perfect damage determines hardpoint placement meta. High shoulder mounts, or being able to load all weapons onto one side (lopsided build) are especially important because someone can throw *all* of their fire into any exposed part of a mech.

Edited by Livewyr, 03 May 2016 - 04:03 AM.

[adamts01]

oldradagast, on 03 May 2016 - 03:22 AM, said:

This is why I question any TTK increasing system based on heat, for example. Sure it will end the laser vomit meta - and turn it into autocannons and Gauss in particular since Gauss is effectively zero heat. Ok, sure - they could add in yet another form of Ghost Heat on Gauss to sort of make it work, but then it would be back to where we started, effectively.

Or just lower ballistic damage a tad. Everyone acts like it's all or nothing. No, it'll never be perfectly balanced, but it should absolutely be better than it is now.