482 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Karl Streiger, on 03 May 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

You can remove Pixel accurate aiming and you would change nothing - just stall the inevitable.

And what is it after wards - i admit i came from the party that advertised Cof or similar dispersion topics.

You can have sweet balance between dps, alpha even fire and forget with pixel accurate aiming. Even jump Jets.
But it need some heavy tweaking of XML files and some Info warfare coding

yes, another idea the some of the Pros cried about as heavily as this.

General summation seems to be "don't touch mah meta!!!"

Point being, for actual balance, and balance that will keep players beside the 1%ers playing, something has to be done, whether it's XML tweaks, GH, PowerDraw, Aiming Mods, wtf ever.

Yet anything that draws stuff away from simple click a pixel is met with resounding resistance from the same parties, every time.


Meh. Screw it. Let em have MechAssault 3. I'm pretty much past giving a crap anymore.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimax, on 03 May 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

I play 8v8 a lot, and I can tell you that 8v8 would go a huge way to solving many of the complaints about TTK that we see. 12v12 is by far one of the biggest culprits.


The other portion is that Gas, Quicksilver, myself and many others are basically playing a different version of the game and in that version of the game getting rushed or rushing with SRMs/Dakka and annihilating the enemy team through sustained fire (DPS) is very viable on many maps and situations.


Several of us feel (as Gas has expressed) that the instant big alphas or long range take one more solid nerf, the whole game is likely to shift towards those rush builds - and anyone who thinks TTK will be better for it is going to be in for an extremely rude awakening.

And yet even in 4v4 scout mode, focus fire annihilates things pretty much instantly.

And yes, "you play a different game". And that's part of the disconnect. The game needs to be accessible not just to "Pros" but the other 99% of the playerbase, too.

8v8? Sure, I'd take it. I've even proposed it, many times, but no it doesn't magically fix MWOs issues, all by itself. The power and damage creep in this game ever since first DHS and then Clantech was introduced it insane.

I'm not saying "Stock Mode" is the fix (it may be fun in itself, but definitely NOT the "answer") but it's pretty dang interesting if you compare the tone and tempo to 8v8 Meta Matches, and play 8v8 Single Heatsink matches (not even stock) back to back.

And in that comparo, one might find some of the real issues that have plagued MWO for so long. (And believe it or not, even without DHS there indeed was a laser meta in MWO. "low heat" ballistics didn't dominate everything, though in every form of MWO and MW and Btech, Gauss Rifles have been broken as hell for balance)

Simply summarized, Alphas are too dang high for the ease of aiming in this game. So somewhere, something needs to be modified to mitigate that.

Problem is, even Russ admitted on the town hall, adding ANY depth or complexity to the combat system sets off howls of rage liek this OP.

So it appears that just like modern politics, and life in general, there is no middle ground, no compromise, but simply "us vs them" and "If you aren't with me, you're against me".

Which is a damn shame.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 03 May 2016 - 09:39 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I remember back a while ago (years)... The biggest complaint against using a cone of fire was the fact that mobile Warfare would be most hampered by it, and that campers who sit in wait would gain the most (they would have no movement-induced reticule bloom). It was claimed that Light Mechs woukd be hurt the most since they have to shoot on the move to survive.

This was back when there was no Ghost Heat and people would camp and wait to fire their unlimited alphas (usually Massed PPC and Gauss/PPC combos). Nowadays, it's Lasers since they limited PPCs to 2 before GH and brought their speed below 2000m/s.


However... Without more information on PowerDraw we can make literally no complaints about it since we have nothing to complain about. We don't even know how ballistic Autocannons and missiles, weapons that draw little electricity to function, will be affected by the electrical power draw system. Since we do not know about ballistics and missiles, all we can do is ask PGI for more info and wait. To make claims about the system (will help/hurt the game) is an exercise in futility.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 03 May 2016 - 09:33 AM.

[Cementi]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

And yet even in 4v4 scout mode, focus fire annihilates things pretty much instantly.

And yes, "you play a different game". And that's part of the disconnect. The game needs to be accessible not just to "Pros" but the other 99% of the playerbase, too.

8v8? Sure, I'd take it. I've even proposed it, many times, but no it doesn't magically fix MWOs issues, all by itself. The power and damage creep in this game ever since first DHS and then Clantech was introduced it insane.

I'm not saying "Stock Mode" is the fix (it may be fun in itself, but definitely NOT the "answer") but it's pretty dang interesting if you compare the tone and tempo to 8v8 Meta Matches, and play 8v8 Single Heatsink matches (not even stock) back to back.

And in that comparo, one might find some of the real issues that have plagued MWO for so long. (And believe it or not, even without DHS there indeed was a laser meta in MWO. "low heat" ballistics didn't dominate everything, though in every form of MWO and MW and Btech, Gauss Rifles have been broken as hell for balance)

Problem is, even Russ admitted on the town hall, adding ANY depth or complexity to the combat system sets off howls of rage liek this OP.

So it appears that just like modern politics, and life in general, there is no middle ground, no compromise, but simply "us vs them" and "If you aren't with me, you're against me".

Which is a damn shame.

Prosperity Park, on 03 May 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

I remember back a while ago (years)... The biggest complaint against using a cone of fire was the fact that mobile Warfare would be most hampered by it, and that campers who sit in wait would gain the most (they would have no movement-induced reticule bloom). It was claimed that Light Mechs woukd be hurt the most since they have to shoot on the move to survive.

This was back when there was no Ghost Heat and people would camp and wait to fire their unlimited alphas (usually Massed PPC and Gauss/PPC combos). Nowadays, it's Lasers since they limited PPCs to 2 before GH and brought their speed below 2000m/s.


However... Without more information on PowerDraw we can make literally no complaints about it since we have nothing to complain about. We don't even know how ballistic Autocannons and missiles, weapons that draw little electricity to function, will be affected by the electrical power draw system. Since we do not know about ballistics and missiles, all we can do is ask PGI for more info and wait. To make claims about the system (will help/hurt the game) is an exercise in futility.

Well that was easy......my thoughts summed up by the last two posts thanks guys.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

And yet even in 4v4 scout mode, focus fire annihilates things pretty much instantly.

And yes, "you play a different game". And that's part of the disconnect. The game needs to be accessible not just to "Pros" but the other 99% of the playerbase, too.

8v8? Sure, I'd take it. I've even proposed it, many times, but no it doesn't magically fix MWOs issues, all by itself. The power and damage creep in this game ever since first DHS and then Clantech was introduced it insane.

I'm not saying "Stock Mode" is the fix (it may be fun in itself, but definitely NOT the "answer") but it's pretty dang interesting if you compare the tone and tempo to 8v8 Meta Matches, and play 8v8 Single Heatsink matches (not even stock) back to back.

And in that comparo, one might find some of the real issues that have plagued MWO for so long. (And believe it or not, even without DHS there indeed was a laser meta in MWO. "low heat" ballistics didn't dominate everything, though in every form of MWO and MW and Btech, Gauss Rifles have been broken as hell for balance)

Problem is, even Russ admitted on the town hall, adding ANY depth or complexity to the combat system sets off howls of rage liek this OP.

So it appears that just like modern politics, and life in general, there is no middle ground, no compromise, but simply "us vs them" and "If you aren't with me, you're against me".

Which is a damn shame.

You are raging harder than anyone else here. Get a grip. How can you say my post was a "howl of rage"? I didn't realize simple logical reasoning was a howl of rage. Sensationalize much?


99%? Pretty sure more than 1% of players play group queue matches. Another thing to consider, why balance around the solo queue, the queue that lacks teamwork the most in a game that is supposed to be all about teamwork?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 03 May 2016 - 09:38 AM.

[Cementi]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

yes, another idea the some of the Pros cried about as heavily as this.

General summation seems to be "don't touch mah meta!!!"

Point being, for actual balance, and balance that will keep players beside the 1%ers playing, something has to be done, whether it's XML tweaks, GH, PowerDraw, Aiming Mods, wtf ever.

Yet anything that draws stuff away from simple click a pixel is met with resounding resistance from the same parties, every time.


Meh. Screw it. Let em have MechAssault 3. I'm pretty much past giving a crap anymore.

Actually kinda the last three.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Prosperity Park, on 03 May 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

exercise in futility.

That's the motto of General Discussion.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 May 2016 - 09:39 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

yes, another idea the some of the Pros cried about as heavily as this.

General summation seems to be "don't touch mah meta!!!"

Point being, for actual balance, and balance that will keep players beside the 1%ers playing, something has to be done, whether it's XML tweaks, GH, PowerDraw, Aiming Mods, wtf ever.

Yet anything that draws stuff away from simple click a pixel is met with resounding resistance from the same parties, every time.


Meh. Screw it. Let em have MechAssault 3. I'm pretty much past giving a crap anymore.

This isn't about click a pixel, as power draw doesn't change the click a pixel, it just changes what weapons you do it with, and how often you do it. So I don't see how this applies to this thread.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 May 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

99%? Pretty sure more than 1% of players play group queue matches. Another thing to consider, why balance around the solo queue, the queue that lacks teamwork the most in a game that is supposed to be all about teamwork?

If only we were talking about solo queue.

Cuz you know, non Pros play team queue too.

And raging? Um, pretty much every post ever made suggesting things that change aiming mechanics, changing metas and or any time Russ even thinks of trying something different (even if not always well thought out) draws such howls of rage that because of the poorly thought out laser lock mechanic the entire concept of infowar is viewed as radioactive by PGI and they are scared to touch it lest their precious Esport crowd be offended.

Am I raging? Maybe I am. Or maybe I'm just sick to death of seeing people wanting to water down and dumb down an already watered and dumbed down game.

But you're right. I am getting to worked up about this. So as I have said, screw it, enjoy finishing the conversion to a console shooter.

Peace out.

Gas Guzzler, on 03 May 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

This isn't about click a pixel, as power draw doesn't change the click a pixel, it just changes what weapons you do it with, and how often you do it. So I don't see how this applies to this thread.

And that's a you issue if you can't comprehend how one mechanic ends up interacting with others.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 May 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

This isn't about click a pixel, as power draw doesn't change the click a pixel, it just changes what weapons you do it with, and how often you do it. So I don't see how this applies to this thread.

Ghost heat, power draw, cone of fire, non-convergence of weapons; they are all ideas that are meant to mitigate low TTK inherent with the capacity to fire all weapons at a single instance at a single point of aim.

[Deathlike]

Prosperity Park, on 03 May 2016 - 09:46 AM, said:

Ghost heat, power draw, cone of fire, non-convergence of weapons; they are all ideas that are meant to mitigate low TTK inherent with the capacity to fire all weapons at a single instance at a single point of aim.

To be clear...

1v1 TTK is actually OK for the most part. Very rarely will you get insta-gibbed doing any sort of 1v1.

TTK only sucks when you're doing 2v1 or 3v2 or any sort of uneven matchup... but that should be normal.

Under this instance, you should NOT put yourself in the situation that isn't favorable, but most people don't use the brain and just go around the corner w/o any consideration that there is a firing line around the corner. Those are the kinds of mistakes people continue repeatedly, w/o moving with any sort of caution or instinct (or Seismic for that matter) or with proper group movement to mitigate these things.

That's what people are really complaining about, outside of the last thing that murdered them (whether they be LRMs or laservomit).

Edited by Deathlike, 03 May 2016 - 09:51 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Prosperity Park, on 03 May 2016 - 09:46 AM, said:

Ghost heat, power draw, cone of fire, non-convergence of weapons; they are all ideas that are meant to mitigate low TTK inherent with the capacity to fire all weapons at a single instance at a single point of aim.

Is limiting the ability to fire 6 PPCs at 600 meters at once so they all hit the same spot a good idea? Probably. 6ERLLs at 810 meters? Probably.

Some larges mixed with mediums for a max effective range of ~350 meters? Ehhhhh depends who you ask.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

changing metas

Ima stop right there, because this is a bit vague, because technically expanding the meta is changing it, but what everyone should want is expanding it, how you go about that is a different story. The reason most "pros" complain on balance changes is because they almost always over nerf whatever was meta and switch the meta from one thing to the next which is what we complain about, not that the meta is actually changed.

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

Russ even thinks of trying something different (even if not always well thought out) draws such howls of rage that because of the poorly thought out laser lock mechanic the entire concept of infowar is viewed as radioactive by PGI and they are scared to touch it lest their precious Esport crowd be offended.

So wait, because we complained about a specific portion of a sweeping change that means the rest is off the table because PGI is scared? Sounds more like PGI's problem and not the players, because most were semi-ok with the rest of the changes (except the time it took to get doritos, that was silly). That said, that still wouldn't have fixed the infowar problem.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 May 2016 - 09:54 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 May 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

You are raging harder than anyone else here. Get a grip. How can you say my post was a "howl of rage"? I didn't realize simple logical reasoning was a howl of rage. Sensationalize much?

99%? Pretty sure more than 1% of players play group queue matches. Another thing to consider, why balance around the solo queue, the queue that lacks teamwork the most in a game that is supposed to be all about teamwork?

He didn't say your post was a "howl of rage".

He's certainly not raging here; that post has a feel of tired resignation at best, but certainly not rage.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

Cuz you know, non Pros play team queue too.

Yep, and you can roflstomp laser vomit heavy teams with SRMs. So what's the problem?

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 03 May 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

To be clear...

1v1 TTK is actually OK for the most part. Very rarely will you get insta-gibbed doing any sort of 1v1.

TTK only sucks when you're doing 2v1 or 3v2 or any sort of uneven matchup... but that should be normal.

Under this instance, you should NOT put yourself in the situation that isn't favorable, but most people don't use the brain and just go around the corner w/o any consideration that there is a firing line around the corner. Those are the kinds of mistakes people continue repeatedly, w/o moving with any sort of caution or instinct or with proper group movement to mitigate these things.

That's what people are really complaining about, outside of the last thing that murdered them (whether they be LRMs or laservomit).

Well, unless you have a brilliant way to remove focus fire form the equation? No? Then since we don't get to play 1v1 very often, the next step is to make the efficacy of each component of the focus fire, slightly less efficient.

Since we are dealing with translating a game that relied on RNG to help accomplish that, and even more so, actual DIFFICULTY of aiming, that presents some issues, across the board, for mechanics.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wintersdark, on 03 May 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

He didn't say your post was a "howl of rage".

He said "Howls of rage like the OP".

Explain how that is not saying my post was a howl of rage.

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

Well, unless you have a brilliant way to remove focus fire form the equation? No? Then since we don't get to play 1v1 very often, the next step is to make the efficacy of each component of the focus fire, slightly less efficient.

Since we are dealing with translating a game that relied on RNG to help accomplish that, and even more so, actual DIFFICULTY of aiming, that presents some issues, across the board, for mechanics.

With thoughtful, competent play, you significantly lower your chances of being focus fired. And its not like if you **** up your dead, as long as you realize you ****** up you can typically twist away from it and come away damaged but alive.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 03 May 2016 - 09:56 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 May 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

Ima stop right there, because this is a bit vague, because technically expanding the meta is changing it, but what everyone should want is expanding it, how you go about that is a different story. The reason most "pros" complain on balance changes is because they almost always over nerf whatever was meta and switch the meta from one thing to the next which is what we complain about, not that the meta is actually changed.


So wait, because we complained about a specific portion of a sweeping change that means the rest is off the table because PGI is scared? Sounds more like PGI's problem and not the players, because most were semi-ok with the rest of the changes (except the time it took to get doritos, that was silly).

except that most of those complaining just lumped them all together. Certainly PGI didn't help the issue, and if you haven't noticed a general level of resignation to disgust with a lot of PGIs recent decisions in my posts (Including Russ giving a halfazz, confrontational TH he obviously didn't feel like giving, maybe he was wanting to watch the NFL draft, instead? Of course the amount of crap he is given even on the "good THs" might turn a person off from caring, too.), you haven't been paying attention.

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 May 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

So wait, because we complained about a specific portion of a sweeping change that means the rest is off the table because PGI is scared? Sounds more like PGI's problem and not the players, because most were semi-ok with the rest of the changes (except the time it took to get doritos, that was silly). That said, that still wouldn't have fixed the infowar problem.

It may be PGI's problem, but it doesn't matter. They're really gun shy about things that make people erupt into rage, and yeah, when people freak the **** out about a given thing they tend to just stop. "most being semi-ok with the rest of the changes"? Maybe. I was, certainly. But those who weren't where extremely vocal about it. Not saying they're right or wrong, it doesn't matter. It just is what it is.

So, yeah, I expect infowar beyond what we have right now is done, and PGI isn't going to bother going anywhere near it for a long time.

[Dawnstealer]

I really think they should just go with the heat scale from the original game: have high heat cause tunnel vision, your mech acting "drunk," shutdowns, damaging your speed, and blowing your mech up. Have obvious visual cues your mech is heating up (like that tunnel vision).