482 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 May 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

With thoughtful, competent play, you significantly lower your chances of being focus fired. And its not like if you **** up your dead, as long as you realize you ****** up you can typically twist away from it and come away damaged but alive.

Really? Cuz as a Medium Guy, the ONLY reason you survive screwing up right now, is because of either insane structure quirks, or bad aim from the OpFor. When most of the Meta Choices for Heavy and Assault can lop off my entire ST with with 1-2 alphas (and you tend to get focused by a hell of a lot more), I will call a bit of BS to that.

And I am not retracting my statement about the OP. Yes, you posted it without the howling, but the message is the same clear "don't screw with my alphas". So kudos for presentation. The gist is still the same though.

[Bishop Steiner]

Dawnstealer, on 03 May 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

I really think they should just go with the heat scale from the original game: have high heat cause tunnel vision, your mech acting "drunk," shutdowns, damaging your speed, and blowing your mech up. Have obvious visual cues your mech is heating up (like that tunnel vision).

Oh but that would punish precious lasers more than Autocannons still. BAD.....

But yes,. closer to the point (And I totally support a real Btech style heatscale, btw, always have. We even used to have elements of one in early CB, but apparently people cried about ammo cookoffs at less than 100% capacity and flickering HUDs... almost as much as the did RnR). That MWO needs deeper combat mechanics, not lighter.

[ExoForce]

ARP Haruna, on 01 May 2016 - 11:35 PM, said:

I think we are approaching a point were this game can't be saved anymore.
My feeling is that heatscale will not change that. Even if implemented right.
The playerbase IS dropping at a greater pace than ever before. People i played with on a daily basis just one or two months ago aren't anymore. Heck i've got to force myself to play this. My weekly playtime has dropped from 30+ hrs to 4 or 5 hours a week.
No FW phase 4, heatscale, whatever will change this.
Owning more than 70 mechs i do not feel i need more. So the monthly mech isn't really of interest and if i look at the old clan and resistance packs their value seems very low.
I can not see pgi coming with a change that is gonna aleviate this. They are too set on their course, sometimes i've got the feeling their decision making involves a dart board.
In short: This game is either sold to another company, or is abandoned even before the license is running out.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

Really? Cuz as a Medium Guy, the ONLY reason you survive screwing up right now, is because of either insane structure quirks, or bad aim from the OpFor. When most of the Meta Choices for Heavy and Assault can lop off my entire ST with with 1-2 alphas (and you tend to get focused by a hell of a lot more), I will call a bit of BS to that.

And I am not retracting my statement about the OP. Yes, you posted it without the howling, but the message is the same clear "don't screw with my alphas". So kudos for presentation. The gist is still the same though.

The gist is more like "Don't make the meta less diverse than it is".

Yeah mediums have to be careful, but I rarely seem to find myself getting insta-gibbed in mediums. They are typically mobile enough to not get stuck out in the open, and are also typically prioritized AFTER heavies and assaults, those two things together help their survival.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 03 May 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

It may be PGI's problem, but it doesn't matter. They're really gun shy about things that make people erupt into rage, and yeah, when people freak the **** out about a given thing they tend to just stop. "most being semi-ok with the rest of the changes"? Maybe. I was, certainly. But those who weren't where extremely vocal about it. Not saying they're right or wrong, it doesn't matter. It just is what it is.

So, yeah, I expect infowar beyond what we have right now is done, and PGI isn't going to bother going anywhere near it for a long time.

Look, all I'm saying is the blame isn't solely on the "pros" for that, the laser portion was the despised part of that PTS.

[Dawnstealer]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

Oh but that would punish precious lasers more than Autocannons still. BAD.....

But yes,. closer to the point (And I totally support a real Btech style heatscale, btw, always have. We even used to have elements of one in early CB, but apparently people cried about ammo cookoffs at less than 100% capacity and flickering HUDs... almost as much as the did RnR). That MWO needs deeper combat mechanics, not lighter.

Agreed - and I've been trying to hunt down a visual example of that "drunk control," because I think it would really add to the game. You could have multiple engine hits that would damage gyros, you could have the actual equivalent of "pilot checks" in a simple mechanic to keep your mech upright.

For that last, you could add collisions back in and give a mech that wobble where you have to actually try to keep it upright (so it will list left, you have to push right, it will list forward, you have compensate, etc) and if you don't do anything? Flomp.

But heatscale - yes. It can't be THAT hard.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

Oh but that would punish precious lasers more than Autocannons still. BAD.....

But yes,. closer to the point (And I totally support a real Btech style heatscale, btw, always have. We even used to have elements of one in early CB, but apparently people cried about ammo cookoffs at less than 100% capacity and flickering HUDs... almost as much as the did RnR). That MWO needs deeper combat mechanics, not lighter.

Doesnt it though? No one wants a "thinking mans" shooter. This game community ONLY wants a game where the deepest thought they need to do is press 1, melt mech, spam mouse left and right to try to twist the incoming 300 damage coming their way.

CoF, so they might need to sporadically stagger fire? no
More punishing heat so they might need to stagger fire and chain fire and manage heat? no
aim time systems and more CoF to necessitate the use of the R button, light mech scouting, NARC, ECM and so on? no

Laser vomit 6 ERLL and think that is skill? Absolutely.

Any other system turns it into death 1000 paper cuts, removes skill, or w/e other stuff people come up with. No one wants a shooter where heat management, trigger discipline, actual group focus fire and team coordination are a thing. We just want the typical corner humping, step out get nuked style of play this game has. I guess this game is giving a good inside look as to why so many people are so bad at games like Planetside 2. Why I was able to achieve a 5.4KDR, and even a 4.75KDR on a medic, when I put my Heavy Shield crutch away. Players want nothing more then high damage....no one seems to look any further then that.

I notice the same thing in Tank games. All people care about is the damage on the guns. if the damage is good and the pen is good, the vehicle is fantastic, to try to tell them the vehicle sucks or anything else gets you flamed out of the forum.

This game would benefit greatly from a mild, dynamic CoF, aim time of sorts, pretty much giving this game a WoT style aim time/CoF bloom circle, but put in many mechanics to lower it or increase it. Thingsto make the player think a little more about thier actions, beyond...can I melt this mech in 1 shot?

Dawnstealer, on 03 May 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

Agreed - and I've been trying to hunt down a visual example of that "drunk control," because I think it would really add to the game. You could have multiple engine hits that would damage gyros, you could have the actual equivalent of "pilot checks" in a simple mechanic to keep your mech upright.

For that last, you could add collisions back in and give a mech that wobble where you have to actually try to keep it upright (so it will list left, you have to push right, it will list forward, you have compensate, etc) and if you don't do anything? Flomp.

But heatscale - yes. It can't be THAT hard.

Honestly, if they did nothing else, the "Drunk control" could be simply your screen getting blurry from heat exhaustion, and if you keep the heat in your mech up, your pilot passes out until the mech cools off. Kinda like blacking out in flight sims.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 03 May 2016 - 10:12 AM, said:

Doesnt it though? No one wants a "thinking mans" shooter. This game community ONLY wants a game where the deepest thought they need to do is press 1, melt mech, spam mouse left and right to try to twist the incoming 300 damage coming their way.

The irony is huge here though, because as people have stated multiple times in this thread they want their mech to survive walking out in the open. If you don't have to care about your positioning and pathing, how does that make the game deeper? Sure you have to worry about aiming mechanics, but suddenly positioning matters significantly less. There is always give and take, the question is how much of both do we want to matter. For me, positioning mattering more than aiming is what makes this game more tactical to me, and I would like to keep it that way as much as possible, and increasing TTK makes that less of a factor.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 May 2016 - 10:28 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Dawnstealer, on 03 May 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

Agreed - and I've been trying to hunt down a visual example of that "drunk control," because I think it would really add to the game. You could have multiple engine hits that would damage gyros, you could have the actual equivalent of "pilot checks" in a simple mechanic to keep your mech upright.

For that last, you could add collisions back in and give a mech that wobble where you have to actually try to keep it upright (so it will list left, you have to push right, it will list forward, you have compensate, etc) and if you don't do anything? Flomp.

But heatscale - yes. It can't be THAT hard.

yeah but you heard Russ on the TH? Things like actual engine critical, gyro crits, etc won't happen, because the simple shooter crowd gets too offended over it. And that's not the Pros, in this case, but the Casual crowd, the "Steam Generation", etc.

Plenty enough blame to go around for MWO being the completely unfocused mess it is now.

It's kind of sad, because weapon balance is about as good as it's been, tbh, at least since that brief period between the Death of Poptarts and the Rise of the Clans.... and yet I find the game at near an all time low for actual FUN factor.

Was hoping Scouting might break some of that Funk, but the general state of CW bleeds over into that, and so it really hasn't. And then a bunch of whiny idjits want to make it so I can't run my CN9 in Scout mode even, *SMH*

[Ultimax]

LordKnightFandragon, on 03 May 2016 - 10:12 AM, said:

Doesnt it though? No one wants a "thinking mans" shooter.

No, this game IS a thinking man's shooter.


People just don't want to man up and go find that content.

They expect to find it in the solo queue full on derp mode, uncoordinated team mates, players with builds that make no sense.

They want PGI to dumb the game down to where its easier to survive so they can have more time to think.

This game can be a thinking man's shooter, that's exactly what organized & team gameplay is here.

[Dawnstealer]

LordKnightFandragon, on 03 May 2016 - 10:12 AM, said:

Honestly, if they did nothing else, the "Drunk control" could be simply your screen getting blurry from heat exhaustion, and if you keep the heat in your mech up, your pilot passes out until the mech cools off. Kinda like blacking out in flight sims.

Exactly this. As opposed to "I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, SHUTDOWN" visualization, just...tunnelvision. Blurry eyesight. SOMETHING.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

yeah but you heard Russ on the TH? Things like actual engine critical, gyro crits, etc won't happen, because the simple shooter crowd gets too offended over it.

Its not even about that, it is more about is there a good way to display that and whether or not it even adds depth to the game? To me, critical hits is really more of an immersion portion (it certainly wouldn't help TTK mind you) just like heat penalties. I mean I wouldn't necessarily be against them, but I don't think they will make the game more fun, especially given how critical hits work in this game.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 May 2016 - 10:26 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 May 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

Its not even about that, it is more about is there a good way to display that and whether or not it even adds depth to the game? To me, critical hits is really more of an immersion portion (it certainly wouldn't help TTK mind you) just like heat penalties. I mean I wouldn't necessarily be against them, but I don't think they will make the game more fun, especially given how critical hits work in this game.

really, so component critical hits (which generally are not a through armor mechanic) which would allow for changes in things like component health, structure quirks and all that is purely immersive and have no impact on actual TTK and game mechanics?

Especially as new tech like LFEs, Compact Gyros, XL Gyros and such are added. Sorry if I disagree. But you know, actually I'm not. Not overtly annoyed at you, but this General "children need to listen to Papa Comp" bullcrap.

[Gas Guzzler]

Some of you are refusing to understand that positioning is the most important thing in this game, and is PURELY a thought-based skill. Aim is a distant second, if that. Being able to wander around out in the open aimlessly is not a thought-based skill. You have to be able to outsmart your opponent to survive. That aspect of the game shouldn't be nerfed.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 03 May 2016 - 10:54 AM.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

And yet even in 4v4 scout mode, focus fire annihilates things pretty much instantly.

That's what focus fire is for, that would continue to happen if we removed lasers from the game.

Even the power draw system will not affect what focus fire does.


Should we reduce all weapon damage by a factor of 5 or 10 so it takes longer to die under focus fire?

Should an AC 20 do 10 points of damage? 2?

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

And yes, "you play a different game". And that's part of the disconnect. The game needs to be accessible not just to "Pros" but the other 99% of the playerbase, too.

The point was that the meta will shift, we are seeing what that meta will be - because its already viable in competitive play, it just has counters which the power draw system is likely to nerf.

Whatever increased TTK people believe will happen is a fantasy.


Players will die faster at close range against Dakka and SRM bombers than they will at mid-range vs. laser mechs.

That is the point, the curbing of big alphas will not improve TTK - it will simply change the range you get killed at and possibly even shorten TTK.

So that 99% of the playerbase? Yeah they would be in for a rude awakening if its dakka/SRMs all day. TTK will not be longer.



Then players will cry to nerf those weapons, they will say they do too much damage and we will be looking at how they can curb UAC 5s, how they can nerf SRMs, how they can tone down the AC 20.

There is no end to it.

Edited by Ultimax, 03 May 2016 - 10:56 AM.

[ExoForce]

Ultimax, on 03 May 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

No, this game IS a thinking man's shooter.
People just don't want to man up and go find that content.

Respect, but it looks more like RNG roll dice game now.

Another extremely fast paced game in space with lasers, ballistic weapons and missiles uses different convergence timers for different type of weapons. Simple.

Edited by ExoForce, 03 May 2016 - 11:02 AM.

[davoodoo]

I dont like 3 things in mwo.
3)ghost heat
2)boating
1)pinpoint accuracy
1 brew 2 and 2 brew 3...

I wouldnt give a **** if you pack yourself with 6 large lasers and fire them in alpha if maybe 1 or 2 will manage to hit me and still hit 2 different parts of me.
You have mechs which can put a full apha into single point at max possible range while running at full speed. Maybe heres the problem...

If you say thats impossible then theres other solution. Double laser burn time across the board.

Edited by davoodoo, 03 May 2016 - 11:01 AM.

[Ultimax]

ExoForce, on 03 May 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

Respect, but it looks more like RNG roll dice game now.

That's why I encourage people to do more team play, try things like MRBC.

It's a very different game, there is quite a lot of thought that goes in to:

• Planning your mechs and their builds around the map, mode and what you think your opponent might bring.
  
• Planning your positioning on that map, based on your builds and the game mode - and then adjusting based on what the enemy does. (and what mechs/builds they actually brought)

There is a lot of thinking there, but people want to play quickplay, they aren't interested in actual depth - so then they simply ask for nerfs to the things that they feel prevent their bad builds and bad decisions from working.

And as opposed to what some people like toss around it has nothing to do with "pros" - this game has no pros. No one gets paid to play this game, this is our funtime, our hobby.

We just put more time and effort into our hobby and get more out of it.

That's the same for any hobby, whether that's a sport, building model airplanes, restoring cars, building/modding PCs, etc.

Edited by Ultimax, 03 May 2016 - 11:06 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimax, on 03 May 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

There is a lot of thinking there, but people want to play quickplay, they ren't interested in actual depth

or have lives and jobs, other interests and aren't interested in devoting their time to Competitive Play.

But of course it's easier to simply denigrate people who view games as a casual hobby, since they don't cling to your worldview, I suppose?

Also, quite a few Solos actually have been very vocal about not dumbing the game down.... apparently there's some disconnect between what some people consider dumb. But only Comps of course can design dropdecks, plan ahead, use tactics, strategy, etc.

But when it's a ghost town with only the comps playing, I wonder how long the lights will stay on, when the new player/pleb experience is generally so negative, with the only solution offered being "git gud".

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

But when it's a ghost town with only the comps playing, I wonder how long the lights will stay on, when the new player/pleb experience is generally so negative, with the only solution offered being "git gud".

I know your straw man is weak, but seeing how Scouting has seen various levels of derp (like it is in the solo queue), blaming comp players for things totally unrelated to them is what you do best.