482 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

adamts01, on 03 May 2016 - 04:23 AM, said:

Or just lower ballistic damage a tad. Everyone acts like it's all or nothing. No, it'll never be perfectly balanced, but it should absolutely be better than it is now.

MWLL style?

[adamts01]

Karl Streiger, on 03 May 2016 - 04:31 AM, said:

MWLL style?

Never played it. This was the first online game for me. I like the idea of an increasing COF depending on # of weapons fired, heat and speed, but this idea could work too. I just want this peeking alpha crap to stop. And for this game to be a straight simulator, but, whatever.

[Karl Streiger]

adamts01, on 03 May 2016 - 04:35 AM, said:

Never played it. This was the first online game for me. I like the idea of an increasing COF depending on # of weapons fired, heat and speed, but this idea could work too. I just want this peeking alpha crap to stop. And for this game to be a straight simulator, but, whatever.

MWLL - had really really fast cycling "smaller" weapons - say UAC2 AC5 and bigger ones.

Values

Considering our issues - i really love to tell a story that includes everything we want to have in this game.

I was and I still be a complete greenhorn in MWLL - anyhow during a battle i was able to sneak into the rear of a Blood Asp with my Hollander II C (1 RAC5 and 2 UAC2) - at point blank i set my guns loose.... the sound and the view was great streaking tracer rounds ripping into the rear of that assault - but the Asp simple shrug off that damage turned slowly - and did blast my Hollander into oblivion with a single blow. (Never camp before an Assault!)

OK maybe MWLL had or would have the same issues when mechlab was as free as it is in MWO

Edited by Karl Streiger, 03 May 2016 - 04:46 AM.

[saKhan Steiner Lawl Kerensky]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

Hide and poke play-styles come from lack of coordination. Solo public queue games are typically either hide and poke or nascar. This is a product of lack of coordination, as is the prevalence of laser vomit.

I don't know why its so hard to figure out. If you walk out and get hit by 6 mechs and die quickly its your own fault. Accept it and move on, don't poke into a firing line like that. Shifting the meta to DPS weapons isn't going to help you in that situation.

http://mwomercs.com/pennyarcade

I wish this was forced or stickied in a very obvious place for everyone to see at least once.

Edited by saKhan Steiner Lawl Kerensky, 03 May 2016 - 05:21 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

adamts01, on 03 May 2016 - 04:23 AM, said:

Or just lower ballistic damage a tad. Everyone acts like it's all or nothing. No, it'll never be perfectly balanced, but it should absolutely be better than it is now.

Yeah better than it is now, where laser vomit, SRMs and autocannons are all perfectly viable. Let's remove laser vomit so people have less options.



How is that better????

[Lugh]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 May 2016 - 06:44 AM, said:

Yeah better than it is now, where laser vomit, SRMs and autocannons are all perfectly viable. Let's remove laser vomit so people have less options.



How is that better????

Laser vomit has always been viable. The downside to unlimited ammo is burn time.

Back in the day, the I WANNA LASER VOMIT ALL THE TIME crowd, Cried LONG and HARD, about how it was impossible to compete with PPFLD (pin point front loaded damage), because they were playing peek and poke with people that poked faster than they could. (the solution of course would be to flank and core from there) But they whined and cried at PGI because they could not face off against the faster application of damage.

Now that ballistics and PPCs travel so slowly that a mech moving at 40kph can avoid the projectiles with a minimum effort, they are the dominate meta.

Edited by Lugh, 03 May 2016 - 06:55 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lugh, on 03 May 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

they are the dominate meta.

No, they aren't that's what Gas and several others have been trying to tell the people on these forums.

[Mister Blastman]

Lugh, on 03 May 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

Laser vomit has always been viable. The downside to unlimited ammo is burn time.

Back in the day, the I WANNA LASER VOMIT ALL THE TIME crowd, Cried LONG and HARD, about how it was impossible to compete with PPFLD (pin point front loaded damage), because they were playing peek and poke with people that poked faster than they could. (the solution of course would be to flank and core from there) But they whined and cried at PGI because they could not face off against the faster application of damage.

Now that ballistics and PPCs travel so slowly that a mech moving at 40kph can avoid the projectiles with a minimum effort, they are the dominate meta.

And the sad fact most of the vomiters won't admit is PPC+ACs or PPC+Gauss builds require more skill than point 'n click flashlights.

You miss with flashlights... drag cursor a little and apply some damage. You miss with PPC+whatever... you get nothing!

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 May 2016 - 06:55 AM, said:

No, they aren't that's what Gas and several others have been trying to tell the people on these forums.

As I play so little and when I do I PUG only, I know a few things...

1. Take wub, score skyrockets past 1k damage and it becomes silly

2. Take PPCs+ACs... lament and cry as hitreg washes away half damage and score plummets

3. Take SRMs--you're at the mercy of the PUGs and weapon is purely situational

4. Take Clam lazors--see #1 to a lesser degree (as the burn times are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long)

Edited by Mister Blastman, 03 May 2016 - 07:06 AM.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Gauss+PPC, at least on mechs that have PPC velocity quirks, seems to be pretty good. Seems to me that I just have to predict what the target will do when they see blue lightning flying towards them and actually shoot there.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mister Blastman, on 03 May 2016 - 07:01 AM, said:

As I play so little and when I do I PUG only, I know a couple of things...

1. Take anything and play competently, and scores skyrocket to 1k.

Fixed this for you, since this is more true of the PUG queue, where you can make anything work. Sure some are easier potentially, but that really doesn't matter because it is PUG queue, and we are talking about a team game.

Group queue is easily dominated by SRMs because a team can actually make coordinated pushes easier. Taking mass SRMs in group queue is easy mode a good chunk of the time, especially if you do some Oxide spamming.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 May 2016 - 07:06 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 May 2016 - 07:06 AM, said:

Fixed this for you, since this is more true of the PUG queue, where you can make anything work. Sure some are easier potentially, but that really doesn't matter because it is PUG queue, and we are talking about a team game.

Group queue is easily dominated by SRMs because a team can actually make coordinated pushes easier. Taking mass SRMs in group queue is easy mode a good chunk of the time, especially if you do some Oxide spamming.

Now be fair--there are certain loadouts that dominate in PUG queue over others. There are absolute situations where certain weapon systems are inferior. I have noticed a marked difference between one type and another in terms of how much I have to try. If I take wub I can sleep the entire fight and murder my enemy.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mister Blastman, on 03 May 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

There are absolute situations where certain weapon systems are inferior.

You mean like Jman's old Lurmback that was one of the best PUG killers which really didn't need the nerf it got?

Mister Blastman, on 03 May 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

If I take wub I can sleep the entire fight and murder my enemy.

That's because PUGs matches are often dominated by mid-range, so anything that excels at that range should be easy to murder everything. It has to do with how uncoordinated most teams are more than anything.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 May 2016 - 07:14 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

LordKnightFandragon, on 03 May 2016 - 02:40 AM, said:

Whatever they do, this game really needs to return to the feeling of driving a big battlemech. Where we could freely wander around the battlefield, feeling like were driving 30-50 foot high machines of war, not afraid of anything, able to meander as we please shooting each other up.

So you openly admit that you want to be able to wander aimlessly and not receive any significant damage?

Sorry, I would like a game that requires you to pay attention, and make thoughtful movements instead of just walking around wherever. You know, a thinking man's shooter.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 03 May 2016 - 07:43 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 03 May 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

Now be fair--there are certain loadouts that dominate in PUG queue over others. There are absolute situations where certain weapon systems are inferior. I have noticed a marked difference between one type and another in terms of how much I have to try. If I take wub I can sleep the entire fight and murder my enemy.

Brawling is incredibly easy if you have coordination.

It all boils down to the lack of coordination in the public queue making mid-range builds favorable (because you sure as hell can't count on other pugs to close distance with you).

I wish people would open there eyes and see this.. Just because you see lasers in the solo queue alot, a game mode marked by lack of synergy and coordination, doesn't mean it is the all powerful meta. More and more competitive matches are becoming brawls, this is a sign that lasers aren't the end all be all that they were prior to the latest balancing attempts. And yeah, if you are in a big group and take fast brawlers in the group queue, its GG unless the other team is ALSO taking fast brawlers.

And its awesome. There are options. You have to decide, "Do we want to go full brawl? Do we want to go full laser vomit (rare as this has some weaknesses so its map and tonnage dependent)? Do we want to go mostly range with some brawl?"

What's funny is that there are some maps that are automatically primarily brawl mechs. Take a look at any recent competitive drop in Frozen City.

Another thing worth considering...

Every so often you get people making threads about LRMs being OP. Do you think these are educated opinions?

More like "OMG standing in this solo queue match everybody has lurms, if I step out I get torn up by missiles, they must be overpowered". We all know this is false though.


There were a few matches in the solo queue that had more LRM boats than laser boats this weekend. Totally means LRMs OP right?

[Deathlike]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 May 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

Another thing worth considering...

Every so often you get people making threads about LRMs being OP. Do you think these are educated opinions?

More like "OMG standing in this solo queue match everybody has lurms, if I step out I get torn up by missiles, they must be overpowered". We all know this is false though.


There were a few matches in the solo queue that had more LRM boats than laser boats this weekend. Totally means LRMs OP right?

Gas, you know that unicorns graze in Tier 5? They are right over the rainbow... near the pot of gold... stealin' me lucky charms...

[Ultimax]

Mister Blastman, on 03 May 2016 - 07:01 AM, said:

And the sad fact most of the vomiters won't admit is PPC+ACs or PPC+Gauss builds require more skill than point 'n click flashlights.

This was the exact same tear jerker story about PPCs/AC5s/Gauss 2+ years ago.

People said basically the same thing, only in reverse.

Look what that complaining got us.


Nerfed ACs, nerfed Gauss, nerfed PPCs.

Mister Blastman, on 03 May 2016 - 07:01 AM, said:

You miss with flashlights... drag cursor a little and apply some damage. You miss with PPC+whatever... you get nothing!

You hit with PPC+whatever and ALL the damage goes to that spot. That's the reward.

The only thing missing are proper PPC speeds, proper AC speeds, proper Gauss CD.


All the things that were nerfed due to crying, just as people cry now about lasers.

Mister Blastman, on 03 May 2016 - 07:01 AM, said:

As I play so little and when I do I PUG only, I know a few things...

1. Take wub, score skyrockets past 1k damage and it becomes silly

2. Take PPCs+ACs... lament and cry as hitreg washes away half damage and score plummets

You think lasers don't suffer from hitreg issues?

WHM-6R is your huckleberry if you want to see what can be done when PPCs and ACs have good speeds.


"Typical" version.

Ulti's "fast and hot" version.



1800m/s PPCs, 16.15 heat to fire both
1380m/s UAC 5s


This is the most fun build I play right now, if this mech could take JJs I'd probably play it 90% of the time.

Edited by Ultimax, 03 May 2016 - 09:06 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lugh, on 03 May 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

Now that ballistics and PPCs travel so slowly that a mech moving at 40kph can avoid the projectiles with a minimum effort, they are the dominate meta.

Maybe in the solo queue with all the randomness and lack of synergy, but not anywhere else, except faction play of course, but that is a different issue (ammo dependency hurts extended game modes like that badly).

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 May 2016 - 11:05 PM, said:

While I have been secretly hoping that PGI would drop their new Ghost Heat 2.0 system, it sounds like Russ has indicated that it is still in the works and might be coming this summer. This disappoints me greatly, and especially makes the announcement of the Night Gyr bittersweet... what good is an XL 300 75 tonner if its firepower is going to be arbitrarily capped?

Some have said "well you can still dakka with it", and that is true, but do we really want a game where the only viable way for heavy/assaults mechs to bring appropriate firepower is to bring autocannons? That sounds incredibly boring vs the options there are now (lasers, SRMs, Gauss, AC20 +SRMs, dakka).

The other thing you have to realize is, the reason people alpha strike is for their own survival. Firing weapons in groups means you are staring, making you an easy target for the other team, meaning you die faster than if you were to come out and get your damage out then roll away to spread damage. One argument I hear is "Well you can just poke with less damage then, and if everyone else has to follow the same rules staring won't be that dangerous." But what about that 3 UAC 10 or 4 UAC 5 Night Gyr that doesn't break the power draw rules? is the belief that 3 UAC 10s or 4 UAC 5s or 5 AC5s actually yield higher TTKs than being able to alpha strike a couple times before being heat capped? In my experience that is not the case. High alpha mechs want to return to cover and cool off, where dakka mechs can keep on shooting at ~15 DPS.

My concern is that this new "power draw" system will curb mechs ability to "fire and twist" which will lead to 1-dimensional style of play among heavy and assault mechs, which will be both boring and will leave many mechs in the hanger collecting dust, and won't even address TTK. I know some people would say "1-dimensional?? All this game is is laser spam!!", and I would respond by explaining that the experience in the solo public queue is not indicative of what is possible when teamwork is employed. Heavy laser use is a product of its mid-range effectiveness, lack of team cohesion, and lack of understanding of what map you will end up on.

That being said, I propose that instead of ridiculous heat penalties or ghost damage 2.0, when a laser vomit alphastrike is over "the limit", maybe just make the lasers burn for a longer duration?

Yes, because people LOVE current GH, and of course, TTK is jsut perfect in this game as is.

Tell you what you add so actual skill based/ IRW style aiming mechanics to the game, and we probably need neither. But since people cry even more about anything that makes their "click a pixel" aiming more difficult, even more than GH?

*shrugs*

[Karl Streiger]

You can remove Pixel accurate aiming and you would change nothing - just stall the inevitable.

And what is it after wards - i admit i came from the party that advertised Cof or similar dispersion topics.

You can have sweet balance between dps, alpha even fire and forget with pixel accurate aiming. Even jump Jets.
But it need some heavy tweaking of XML files and some Info warfare coding

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 May 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

Yes, because people LOVE current GH, and of course, TTK is jsut perfect in this game as is.

I play 8v8 a lot, and I can tell you that 8v8 would go a huge way to solving many of the complaints about TTK that we see. 12v12 is by far one of the biggest culprits.


The other portion is that Gas, Quicksilver, myself and many others are basically playing a different version of the game and in that version of the game getting rushed or rushing with SRMs/Dakka and annihilating the enemy team through sustained fire (DPS) is very viable on many maps and situations.


Several of us feel (as Gas has expressed) that the instant big alphas or long range take one more solid nerf, the whole game is likely to shift towards those rush builds - and anyone who thinks TTK will be better for it is going to be in for an extremely rude awakening.

Edited by Ultimax, 03 May 2016 - 09:21 AM.