482 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:

Do you have any actual FACTS

Here is another perspective. Do you have any actual FACTS to back up the assertion that pinpoint damage is actually an issue other than it making the game harder to play and less forgiving?

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

That is a fact though. How is this meta shallow? There is more to this game than just hide and laser vomit, and that's whats missing. I have yet to see someone advocate power draw AND ALSO acknowledge the SRM meta, or the dakka meta that is in game today. Its always "anything to curb laser vomit, please", which is a clear indication of a lack of understanding, simply complaining about all the Black Knights that you see in the solo queue.
.

Just because a few mechs can, thanks to quirks, wield a normally non-viable weapon like SRM's - a short-range weapon without pinpoint precision - does not mean there is an "SRM meta." That "meta" could vanish overnight if the Oxide and to a lesser degree the Clan Jenner, got nerfed. As for the dakka meta, that hardly disproves the valid complain about pinpoint damage because boated auto-cannon rounds also all land on the same pixel. The only reason dakka is not really the meta is because of the extreme tonnage and specific positioning of ballistic hardpoints required to make it work. Meanwhile, almost anything can boat lasers.

As for the rest, you still seem to honestly think this is about making it so people can "walk out in front of 6 mechs" and just not die. If you actually READ all the posts on this topic, or even a few of them, you'd realize that nobody is asking for that type of change to the game. The problem is the stupid ease with which long-range damage can all be applied to a single component. That has nothing to do with skill or the number of mechs applying the damage.

[Gas Guzzler]

Captain Luffy, on 02 May 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

As for those who have already said for comp and meta they will just use the new best thing, well I agree with you 100%. Its not the first time meta was changed and doubt it will be the last. I also rather enjoy continual power swings because it forces people to keep up with the most relevant information and the ever changing meta. Sadly though the meta has been the same for a very long time now and made this game boring. This new power drawl system will change that to finding new better ways to kill your foes. So good luck everyone, and I can't wait to see what the new system will be like. (Just so long as it isn't like Paul-economics.)

I just don't by this. The meta is as diverse as it has ever been.

SRMs (+AC20)
Gauss Rifles
Lasers
PPCs (iffy)
Autocannons (ESPECIALLY 5s and UAC5s)
Streaks

The only weapon system not really represented is LRMs. What will power draw do?

SRMs (+AC20)
Gauss Rifles
Lasers on lights
Lasers on heavies and assaults
PPCs (iffy)
Autocannons (ESPECIALLY 5s and UAC5s)
Streaks

Congrats, making the meta less diverse, that is totally what we need and makes things less boring

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

Here is another perspective. Do you have any actual FACTS to back up the assertion that pinpoint damage is actually an issue other than it making the game harder to play and less forgiving?

Lol.. Seriously? Should I just copy-paste what's been previously posted or would you like to actually READ what people are writing instead of making laughable and groundless assumptions that "everyone who hates pinpoint long-rage meta is a bad who wants to be able to stand in front of 6 mechs at close range in the open and not die."

But, since you're clearly not reading what is written, we'll cover - AGAIN - the problems caused by the pinpoint, long range meta:
- Ghost heat
- Power draw
- Hover-jets
- Gauss charge up
- Quirks
- PPC over-nerfing
- Mech viability being far too dependent upon minor variations in geometry and hardpoint location.

Look, we can argue this all day, but I've got better thing to do than keep restating facts to you. Clearly, you've made up your mind without being inconvenienced by them. As far you're concerned, all of the above crap is perfectly fine and "just makes the game more challenging" and anyone who thinks one shouldn't be able to constantly drop dual gauss rounds on the same mech location from long range with zero skill requirements to pull that off is a "bad who wants to face-tank 6 mechs at 200 meters and win." because you said so.

Edited by oldradagast, 02 May 2016 - 03:58 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

Just because a few mechs can, thanks to quirks, wield a normally non-viable weapon like SRM's - a short-range weapon without pinpoint precision - does not mean there is an "SRM meta." That "meta" could vanish overnight if the Oxide and to a lesser degree the Clan Jenner, got nerfed. As for the dakka meta, that hardly disproves the valid complain about pinpoint damage because boated auto-cannon rounds also all land on the same pixel. The only reason dakka is not really the meta is because of the extreme tonnage and specific positioning of ballistic hardpoints required to make it work. Meanwhile, almost anything can boat lasers.

As for the rest, you still seem to honestly think this is about making it so people can "walk out in front of 6 mechs" and just not die. If you actually READ all the posts on this topic, or even a few of them, you'd realize that nobody is asking for that type of change to the game. The problem is the stupid ease with which long-range damage can all be applied to a single component. That has nothing to do with skill or the number of mechs applying the damage.

Actually, trading with projectiles at extreme range does take significant skill. So there's that.

And this is the **** I am talking about. "There is no SRM meta"?? Seriously??? This is evidence of not getting it. If half of the competitive drops in MRBC are loaded up with SRMs (on Atlases, Oxides, JR7-IIC, Stormcrow, Timber Wolf, Orion, Hunchback, Hunchback-IIC, Griffins, Shadow Hawks, etc), SRMs are definitely meta.

If you drop in the group queue with and SRM heavy brawl deck, it is painfully easy to roflstomp the other team. Easier than it is with laser vomit.

And yeah, the best assaults in the game are the Mauler (5 AC5s) and the Atlas (AC20, 4 SRM6s w/Art). Heavies like the JM6-DD with 3 UAC5s gets used in competitive play, I wouldn't be surprised if the 4 AC5 Black Widow does as well when it is legal. So much more than lasers. Watch some MRBC matches.

[Deathlike]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 03:49 PM, said:

No, it stems from the people advocating systems like power draw not listening to the arguments and just saying "No no no I lost CT armor quickly fix the game".

Instant convergence is not a skill. (For the record, I am not even against delayed convergence, but I don't consider it a possibility given PGI's issues with it.) Spreading damage well is. Being shrewd with positioning is also a skill, and requires you to THINK. Think about where you are going, where you can be shot from, any information you have on the enemy team position, and make an educated decision about whether or not to move out from your current position or find another way. Think about what you are doing, instead of just mindlessly moving around without paying attention and then getting angry when you get killed and say it was the games fault.

Gas, you know that aimlessly walking around a map like a chicken with its head cut off is the optimal route.

[Gas Guzzler]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

Lol.. Seriously? Should I just copy-paste what's been previously posted or would you like to actually READ what people are writing instead of making laughable and groundless assumptions that "everyone who hates pinpoint long-rage meta is a bad who wants to be able to stand in front of 6 mechs at close range in the open and not die."

But, since you're clearly not reading what is written, we'll cover - AGAIN - the problems caused by the pinpoint, long range meta:
- Ghost heat
- Power draw
- Hover-jets
- Gauss charge up
- Quirks
- PPC over-nerfing
- Mech viability being far too dependent upon minor variations in geometry and hardpoint location.

Look, we can argue this all day, but I've got better thing to do than keep restating facts to you. Clearly, you've made up your mind without being inconvenienced by them. As far you're concerned, all of the above crap is perfectly fine and "just makes the game more challenging" and anyone who thinks one shouldn't be able to constantly drop dual gauss rounds on the same mech location from long range with zero skill requirements to pull that off is a "bad who wants to face-tank 6 mechs at 200 meters and win." because you said so.

I challenge you to pinpoint the same component on me in game at extreme range with Gauss rifles repeatedly. Until you demonstrate this, you are utterly full of ****.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 May 2016 - 04:01 PM.

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

I just don't by this. The meta is as diverse as it has ever been.

SRMs (+AC20) (only on few mechs and quirk dependent)
Gauss Rifles (pinpoint, long range damge)
Lasers (pinpoint, long range damage)
PPCs (iffy) (pinpoint, long range damage)
Autocannons (ESPECIALLY 5s and UAC5s) (boated light auto cannons are pinpoint, long range damage)
Streaks (debatable)

Such diversity. Which flavor of pinpoint, long range damage shall I boat when I'm busy peaking from behind rocks. Come on... seriously?

[Deathlike]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

Just because a few mechs can, thanks to quirks, wield a normally non-viable weapon like SRM's - a short-range weapon without pinpoint precision - does not mean there is an "SRM meta." That "meta" could vanish overnight if the Oxide and to a lesser degree the Clan Jenner, got nerfed. As for the dakka meta, that hardly disproves the valid complain about pinpoint damage because boated auto-cannon rounds also all land on the same pixel. The only reason dakka is not really the meta is because of the extreme tonnage and specific positioning of ballistic hardpoints required to make it work. Meanwhile, almost anything can boat lasers.

As for the rest, you still seem to honestly think this is about making it so people can "walk out in front of 6 mechs" and just not die. If you actually READ all the posts on this topic, or even a few of them, you'd realize that nobody is asking for that type of change to the game. The problem is the stupid ease with which long-range damage can all be applied to a single component. That has nothing to do with skill or the number of mechs applying the damage.

I'm not sure if you even play much or see what is most common (even in the pub group queues), but there are other ways of playing the game, including brawling and mass dakka that have been proven successful in complement to the laservomit meta.

I mean, it's easy to frame the argument that everything you see is laservomit, but seriously... there is more to MWO than laservomit. There simply isn't an LRM/LBX/MG meta to speak of however.

[Gas Guzzler]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

But, since you're clearly not reading what is written, we'll cover - AGAIN - the problems caused by the pinpoint, long range meta:
- Ghost heat
- Power draw
- Hover-jets
- Gauss charge up
- Quirks
- PPC over-nerfing
- Mech viability being far too dependent upon minor variations in geometry and hardpoint location.

This doesn't prove anything though, you are just listing game mechanics that make it harder to do damage at range. What does that prove? That you don't like these mechanics is an opinion not a fact.

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

I challenge you to pinpoint the same component on me in game at extreme range with Gauss rifles repeatedly. Until you demonstrate this, you are utterly full of ****.

Ummmm... Sorry to interrupt you on your high "skill horse" and all that, but nobody said anything about REPEATEDLY hitting the same component with DIFFERENT shots fired. Yes, even a lowly scrub with 0 games under his belt can hit you with 2 Gauss rounds in the same spot if fired at the same time. In fact, this will happen every time thanks to the wonders of pinpoint convergence. THAT is the discussion at hand - why that nonsense is allows the problems is causing - not how skilled you may be, or how "everyone who dislikes the current meta is a bad who wants to brawl 6 other mechs and survive every time."

Edited by oldradagast, 02 May 2016 - 04:05 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

Atlases, Oxides, JR7-IIC, Stormcrow, Timber Wolf, Orion, Hunchback, Hunchback-IIC, Griffins, Shadow Hawks, Catapult-A1

All take SRMs to great effect in competitive play. "Only a few mechs". There are 11 there.

[oldradagast]

The real thing is if Power Draw is alpha capped it'll fail worse than Ghost Heat... only time will tell.

Edited by oldradagast, 02 May 2016 - 04:13 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

Ummmm... Sorry to interrupt you on your high "skill horse" and all that, but nobody said anything about REPEATEDLY hitting the same component with DIFFERENT shots fired. Yes, even a lowly scrub with 0 games under his belt can hit you with 2 Gauss rounds in the same spot if fired at the same time. In fact, this will happen every time thanks to the wonders of pinpoint convergence. THAT is the discussion at hand - why that nonsense is allows the problems is causing - not how skilled you may be, or how "everyone who dislikes the current meta is a bad who wants to brawl 6 other mechs and survive every time."

Keep up? Lol you are disproving yourself. How many mechs get one shot by dual gauss? Lights maybe but that is rare, normally the convergence isn't good enough for that.

So no mechs get one shot by dual gauss, most won't even have their armor open. Are you still with me? So you how do you kill a target at long range with dual gauss? Maybe it takes, multiple shots to the same component? Wow, amazing isn't it!

Also there is no high skill horse, I was simply saying I will drop in game with you so you can show me how you can hit me in one component with dual gauss, more importantly, you hit me in the component you were aiming for.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 May 2016 - 04:10 PM.

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

All take SRMs to great effect in competitive play. "Only a few mechs". There are 11 there.

Fair enough - I'll grant you the SRM's.

Still, that doesn't change the fact that a good chunk of the meta is dominated by long-range precision damage.

Nobody is advocating removing it, making all weapons into LBX's, making all shots scatter everywhere, but can you - or anyone else who seems to think this is a vital part of the game - provide a single good reason for all the damage from all your precision weapons landing on a single pixel every time regardless of range or anything else?

It's not skill - I think most everyone understands that - and it has created a host of band-aid mechanics which make little sense have honestly have simple put a box around the meta without actually expanding it. IE: if the ghost-heat limit for a weapon is X, you boat X of that weapon, problem solved.

Anyway, I see we'll never agree on this, and that's fine, but I'm damned tired of the idiotic and groundless accusations that anyone who is sick of the pinpoint meta is a "bad player who wants to brawl 6 mechs and live." At least TRY to address the debate - if all you have is groundless personal attacks, you may as well have nothing.

[Revis Volek]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

Such diversity. Which flavor of pinpoint, long range damage shall I boat when I'm busy peaking from behind rocks. Come on... seriously?

How are Sml Pulse, Sml and Mediums lasers LONG RANGE?

What is you definition of long range? Clearly its not the same one the game uses and that first comment of ONLY a few mechs with SRM and ballistic Meta is a lot longer then just a few mechs...

Heres the ones I personally own...

Centurions, ALL
Griffins, (all but Sparky)
Oxide
All Atlas variants
Huggin
Hunchbacks (either Ballistics or SRMS)
Catapults
Enforcers (ballistics)

and thats just the IS side and im sure i missed tons. Thats 8 chassis with at least 1 SRM/Ballstics (sometimes both) quirked mech. But quirks arent really neccesary for SRM4's or 6's with Artemis to work well hence the reason the SCR is a beast with SSRM or just SRM's.

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

Keep up? Lol you are disproving yourself. How many mechs get one shot by dual gauss? Lights maybe but that is rare, normally the convergence isn't good enough for that.

So no mechs get one shot by dual gauss, most won't even have their armor open. Are you still with me? So you how do you kill a target at long range with dual gauss? Maybe it takes, multiple shots to the same component? Wow, amazing isn't it!

And can you defend WHY it is vital to the game to have both of those Gauss rounds constantly land on the same pixel all the time? You can't, so you resort to personal attacks and moving the goal posts - so now it's okay to dual Gauss hit if the target can survive it. Whatever - you don't get it.

Edited by oldradagast, 02 May 2016 - 04:12 PM.

[Davers]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 May 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

I just don't by this. The meta is as diverse as it has ever been.

SRMs (+AC20)
Gauss Rifles
Lasers
PPCs (iffy)
Autocannons (ESPECIALLY 5s and UAC5s)
Streaks

The only weapon system not really represented is LRMs. What will power draw do?

SRMs (+AC20)
Gauss Rifles
Lasers on lights
Lasers on heavies and assaults
PPCs (iffy)
Autocannons (ESPECIALLY 5s and UAC5s)
Streaks

Congrats, making the meta less diverse, that is totally what we need and makes things less boring

Devil's Advocate here-

If MRBC had matches without the self imposed restrictions, would we still have all those metas? If you could bring 3 or 4 Black Knights in every single match, for instance.

Don't bite my head off.

[Gas Guzzler]

oldradagast, on 02 May 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

And can you defend WHY it is vital to the game to have both of those Gauss rounds constantly land on the same pixel all the time? You can't, so you resort to personal attacks and moving the goal posts - so now it's okay to dual Gauss hit if the target can survive it. Whatever - you don't get.

Why is it vital? I don't know if its vital but it certainly isn't an issue. Especially because with how convergence works, it is possible to not get hit in the same spot by the dual gauss.

I'm not moving the goal posts. What good is hitting one component (like an arm) if its not the one you were aiming for? It takes no skill to hit any component on a mech. The skill comes from repeating the shot more than once so it actually does meaningful damage. Its not like the game ends when you score a Gauss hit, so who cares? All the aiming skill aside, most of the skill in this game is teamwork, positioning, and playing smart. What I don't want is a less diverse meta, which is what power draw is going to accomplish.

[oldradagast]

Revis Volek, on 02 May 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

How are Sml Pulse, Sml and Mediums lasers LONG RANGE?

They are still, technically, part of the pinpoint meta, hence some limitations applied by ghost heat, etc.

Again, can anyone who defends this explain WHY the game so badly needs to have all damage applied at all ranges instantly to a single pixel? Because based on the game history, this mindset has certainly not helped.

I get it - you like it that way. Fine, but the problems it's caused (no, I'm not listing them again - I'd like to think people will actually read posts for something other than a excuse to pick a fight) should cast some doubt on that viewpoint. And as for the mindless attempts at personal attacks, well... have fun with that.