482 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DrxAbstract, on 05 May 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

I mean there's nothing really wrong with a PPC or Laser that fires 2, 3 or 50 times per 10 seconds as long as their damage and heat are adjusted accordingly... \

Actually there is something wrong with that, the more times you have to shoot a weapon to deal damage, the more damage potential they must have to keep up with weapons that do all their damage up front. In other words you can just subdivide and keep the DPS/HPS at the same and expect each subdivision to be equal to the last.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 May 2016 - 08:10 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

Actually there is something wrong with that, the more times you have to shoot a weapon to deal damage, the more damage potential they must have to keep up with weapons that do all their damage up front.

So dont make weapons that do all their damage up front? AC20s should be doing 20 Damage per 10 Seconds (Which could be 1 shot per 10, or 20 shots per 10 as long as it does 20 Damage Total in 10 Seconds... This is also Canon), not 20 Damage per 4 Seconds... which, as I said, if you were to actually adjust the damage and heat figures as PGI should have done, this wouldnt be an issue.

Pretty simple.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DrxAbstract, on 05 May 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

AC20s should be doing 20 Damage per 10 Seconds (Which could be 1 shot per 10, or 20 shots per 10 as long as it does 20 Damage Total in 10 Seconds... This is also Canon)

And what I'm saying is all those options are unequal, the PPFLD option will be the most powerful for obvious reasons. The more times a weapon has to fire to do equal damage to a PPFLD the more damage potential it should have to compensate for the inability to do all its damage up front. This is why PPFLD has been dominant over DPS until recently, because DPS oriented weapons never had the appropriate damage potential compared to alpha oriented mechs.

Big alpha weapons should never have equal DPS to a DPS oriented weapon (like an AC20 that shoots 20 1 damage pellets).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 May 2016 - 08:18 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

And what I'm saying is all those options are unequal, the PPFLD option will be the most powerful for obvious reasons. THe more times a weapon has to fire to do equal damage to a PPFLD the more damage potential it should have to compensate for the inability to do all its damage up front.

I'm not sure what you're not understanding about "There wouldnt be PPFLD."

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DrxAbstract, on 05 May 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

I'm not sure what you're not understanding about "There wouldnt be PPFLD."

DrxAbstract, on 05 May 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

1 shot per 10, or 20 shots per 10 as long as it does 20 Damage Total in 10 Seconds

There would be even given under your example, like the 1 shot AC20.

Even then whichever has the lowest number of subdivisions would be potentially PPFLD.

Regardless, this game does not nor should it be boiled down to just DPS, alpha/PPFLD oriented guns actually add a dimension provided the DPS weapons are equally viable. Forcing this game to be about all rapid fire weapons would be terribly boring and just as 1-dimensional as the poptart days.

[DrxAbstract]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

There would be even given under your example, like the 1 shot AC20.

Even then whichever has the lowest number of subdivisions would be potentially PPFLD.

Regardless, this game does not nor should it be boiled down to just DPS, alpha/PPFLD oriented guns actually add a dimension provided the DPS weapons are equally viable. Forcing this game to be about all rapid fire weapons would be terribly boring and just as 1-dimensional as the poptart days.

That was not an example of "What it could be like." It was an example of how, currently, the AC20 isnt just a PPFLD weapon but also a rapid-firing one given its cooldown is over 200% faster than TT, otherwise known as damage inflation... And all weapons in MWO have it.

As long as an AC20 does 20 damage over 10 seconds, a Medium Laser does 5 damage over 10 seconds, etc. There wouldnt be a PPFLD scenario like we have today where it's 40-60 points of damage every <4 seconds. There might be 'PPFLD' weapons relative to one another, however, the numbers can be tweaked and controlled to maintain relative balance. Such a design would also be easier to maintain a properly functioning Heat System in as well.

If an AC20's cooldown allowing it 4 shots for 5 damage is too high a relative damage per shot compared to a Medium Pulse Laser's cooldown allowing 3 shots of 2 damage, then change it to 5 shots of 4 damage for the AC20 or 2 shots of 3 damage for the Medium Pulse. It's not hard.

And I completely disagree that Alpha and DPS separations in the extremes they currently are in MWO adds any tangible depth to the gameplay and is in fact responsible for those 1-dimensional days of jump sniping.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DrxAbstract, on 05 May 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

And I completely disagree that Alpha and DPS separations in the extremes they currently are in MWO adds any tangible depth to the gameplay and is in fact responsible for those 1-dimensional days of jump sniping.

Except we aren't in those days anymore, dakka is being used increasingly in comp because dakka is in a good place right now, and even before that, before the QKD-4G nerf, the QKD-4G actually had a DPS oriented role since it only ran a 33 point alpha (which is significantly less than the 58 from a BK) but could repeat it a lot more often giving it better DPS capabilities. The rebalance allowed DPS to step up and actually have a place in the meta rather than being simply about alphas, worst case the duration of laser alphas needs to be longer to make those less powerful and better able to be responded to, but it really doesn't require the nerfhammer.

DrxAbstract, on 05 May 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

If an AC20's cooldown allowing it 4 shots for 5 damage is too high a relative damage per shot compared to a Medium Pulse Laser's cooldown allowing 3 shots of 2 damage, then change it to 5 shots of 4 damage for the AC20 or 2 shots of 3 damage for the Medium Pulse. It's not hard.

Or you could buff one to shoot more times in 10 seconds because TT damage/heat values are not equal nor balanced for tonnage in this game. You are basically asking for weapons like the AC2 or AC5 to be absolutely crap unless you made every other weapon require you to shoot every second for minimal damage (which would be utterly stupid and crap to play).

Can we please stop trying to adhere to TT weapon values which weren't even balanced themselves in TT, let alone MWO.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 May 2016 - 08:50 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

DrxAbstract, on 05 May 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

That was not an example of &quot;What it could be like.&quot; It was an example of how, currently, the AC20 isnt just a PPFLD weapon but also a rapid-firing one given its cooldown is over 200% faster than TT, otherwise known as damage inflation... And all weapons in MWO have it.

As long as an AC20 does 20 damage over 10 seconds, a Medium Laser does 5 damage over 10 seconds, etc. There wouldnt be a PPFLD scenario like we have today where it's 40-60 points of damage every &lt;4 seconds. There might be 'PPFLD' weapons relative to one another, however, the numbers can be tweaked and controlled to maintain relative balance. Such a design would also be easier to maintain a properly functioning Heat System in as well.

If an AC20's cooldown allowing it 4 shots for 5 damage is too high a relative damage per shot compared to a Medium Pulse Laser's cooldown allowing 3 shots of 2 damage, then change it to 5 shots of 4 damage for the AC20 or 2 shots of 3 damage for the Medium Pulse. It's not hard.

And I completely disagree that Alpha and DPS separations in the extremes they currently are in MWO adds any tangible depth to the gameplay and is in fact responsible for those 1-dimensional days of jump sniping.

I have to admit, this idea does seem to have some merit, especially since, the Gauss Rifle is one of the only weapons that's "closest" to original TT values.

Anyway, I don't actually hold much merit in the original BattleTech '10 seconds per round' scheme.

I haven't done the math, but have always assumed that one of the guys doing the original game design figured out how much time an Atlas, moving at it's top walking speed, moved those "3 hexes", or (if I remember correctly) 90 meters, and it worked out to 10 seconds.

For all I know their math was incredibly bad and an actual BT round would actually interpret into 5 seconds, or less, anyway... I'm not stuck on 10 seconds per round, still, what you're talking about has a distinct appeal in what it might do to game play...

[Sjorpha]

They're not slowing weapons down to TT speed, so you might as well drop that idea. Simply not happening. (Lucky me I don't want them to do that)

[DrxAbstract]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

Except we aren't in those days anymore, dakka is being used increasingly in comp because dakka is in a good place right now, and even before that, before the QKD-4G nerf, the QKD-4G actually had a DPS oriented role since it only ran a 33 point alpha (which is significantly less than the 58 from a BK) but could repeat it a lot more often giving it better DPS capabilities. The rebalance allowed DPS to step up and actually have a place in the meta rather than being simply about alphas, worst case the duration of laser alphas needs to be longer to make those less powerful and better able to be responded to, but it really doesn't require the nerfhammer.

Thanks entirely to Quirks and nothing to do with actual weapon balance, which still resulted in a large number of ineffectual or outright useless Mechs/Variants and shoehorned, 1-dimensional gameplay.

Quote

Or you could buff one to shoot more times in 10 seconds because TT damage/heat values are not equal nor balanced for tonnage in this game. You are basically asking for weapons like the AC2 or AC5 to be absolutely crap unless you made every other weapon require you to shoot every second for minimal damage (which would be utterly stupid and crap to play).

Can we please stop trying to adhere to TT weapon values which weren't even balanced themselves in TT, let alone MWO.

You mean the AC2 and AC5 arent already absolute crap? /ponder

Nobody is saying strict TT values. They are ideas and examples, presented for the sake of offering different avenues by which to reach the goal of inter-weapon balance, increasing the pool of viable Mechs/Variants and increasing TTK in general.

Sjorpha, on 05 May 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

They're not slowing weapons down to TT speed, so you might as well drop that idea. Simply not happening. (Lucky me I don't want them to do that)

Nobody said to slow them down to TT speeds. Relative damage numbers and proportional cooldowns, perhaps... But i dont think anyone wants a small laser firing once per 10 seconds .

[cazidin]

I like how people try to use values from a turn based strategy game, TT, for a real time FPS game, MWO and honestly think that it'll work well.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DrxAbstract, on 05 May 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

Thanks entirely to Quirks and nothing to do with actual weapon balance, which still resulted in a large number of ineffectual or outright useless Mechs/Variants and shoehorned, 1-dimensional gameplay.

I wont argue about having a bunch of useless mechs/variants (though with over 300 variants, its nearly impossible to get them to be all usable). As for 1-dimensional gameplay, maybe if you are playing solo queue, yeah, that's always going to be a problem.

DrxAbstract, on 05 May 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

You mean the AC2 and AC5 arent already absolute crap? /ponder

Ummmm, the AC5/UAC5 are solid choices currently, much better than they would be with TT DPS value.....
The AC2 is bad, but would be much worse if it is was forced to have a DPS of 0.2.......

DrxAbstract, on 05 May 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

They are ideas and examples, presented for the sake of offering different avenues by which to reach the goal of inter-weapon balance, increasing the pool of viable Mechs/Variants and increasing TTK in general.

Nobody said to slow them down to TT speeds. Relative damage numbers and proportional cooldowns, perhaps... But i dont think anyone wants a small laser firing once per 10 seconds .

That's fine and all, but you keep using this 10 second idea from TT as your example. You could've just said reduce the AC20's damage to 1/4th and speed up the cooldown by 4x. Either way, getting rid of PPFLD doesn't improve variants or gameplay, making them equally viable should be the goal, and right now DPS and alpha based variants are almost equally useful, almost.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 May 2016 - 09:28 AM.

[Gigashot]

It is probably just me but all these proposed new heat changes or "energy" limits tied to your engine or whatever sound terrible.

What is the goal? To increase TTK? That's not a bad goal, but tweak damage or armor. Don't make it so we only have one viable build with no options or ability to actually fight each other.

Edited by Gigashot, 05 May 2016 - 09:38 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

DrxAbstract, on 05 May 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

Thanks entirely to Quirks and nothing to do with actual weapon balance, which still resulted in a large number of ineffectual or outright useless Mechs/Variants and shoehorned, 1-dimensional gameplay.

You will find many opinions on quirks, but regardless, you will never have every single mech be useful. Right now, in my eyes (someone may even be able to cross a few off of this list) the following chassis are the only ones that are really lacking in efficacy (as in don't have at least 1 useful variant):

Commando
Mist Lynx
Vindicator
Awesome
Victor

I don't know, can anyone add/remove any?

As Quicksilver said, 1-dimensional is at most a solo queue issue, and arguably not even the case there. Dakka/lasers are both outstanding options in the solo queue. Of course Gauss has a place as well, and some chassis can PPC well as well. That is a quirk thing yes, but if the issue is quirks, that has nothing to do with power draw, and everything to do with buffing weapons to behave liked their quirked versions, at least the minimum quirked version that makes them effective, and if certain chassis need MORE help, go from there.

[DrxAbstract]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 May 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

I wont argue about having a bunch of useless mechs/variants (though with over 300 variants, its nearly impossible to get them to be all usable). As for 1-dimensional gameplay, maybe if you are playing solo queue, yeah, that's always going to be a problem.

Nearly impossible to get them all usable, I agree, but currently less than half are utilized on a regular basis. And I wasnt referring to Quickplay dropping - it was a reference to CW and how the QKD-4G was running 2-3 slots in most IS dropdecks, just like the Thunderbolt 5SS/9SE/9S before it: One dimension gameplay. It wasnt nearly as popular in Quickplay matches so it wasnt as big an issue, but there were still plenty of them to go around.

Quote

Ummmm, the AC5/UAC5 are solid choices currently, much better than they would be with TT DPS value.....
The AC2 is bad, but would be much worse if it is was forced to have a DPS of 0.2.......

The UAC5 is a solid choice with or without quirks, whereas the AC5 is a happenstance weapon that needs quirks to compete, just like the AC2. At least if the AC2 fired like a chaingun it'd be a good novelty weapon .

Quote

That's fine and all, but you keep using this 10 second idea from TT as your example. You could've just said reduce the AC20's damage to 1/4th and speed up the cooldown by 4x. Either way, getting rid of PPFLD doesn't improve variants or gameplay, making them equally viable should be the goal, and right now DPS and alpha based variants are almost equally useful, almost.

Example needs context, that's all. PPFLD wouldnt be going away, it would be getting reduced. There's literally no difference between how they'd essentially function under that system - You push the button, the damage gets dealt up-front with pinpoint accuracy, you just need to push the button more and maintain a steady aim to get full damage... It would still be separate from Lasers in functionality and massive alphas (Which are an issue) get spread out a bit. Again, it's just an idea.

That an Atlas-S can put out 71 damage per alpha is an issue... But I'm not against it, or any Mech, having high Alpha Damage or DPS relative to others; I'd find it entirely acceptable if, for example, the Atlas-S did 35 Damage per Alpha instead, and an FS9-A did 16 Damage per Alpha instead of 32.

Fixing broken Mechs/Variants (Like the SDR-5K) would likely happen from that, assuming Machine Guns get unborked in the process, but it's an example just as I can tell you the Myst Lynx might actually get played more since one of the reasons it's disliked is it's easily disarmed by the sheer amount of damage flying around right now... And Lights/Mediums/Assaults in general might actually see an increase in numbers as their respective attributes (High Speed, Total Armor, etc.) become more appealing... But who knows.

[DrxAbstract]

cazidin, on 05 May 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

I like how people try to use values from a turn based strategy game, TT, for a real time FPS game, MWO and honestly think that it'll work well.

I like how ignorance prevents understanding the relationship between context and examples in idea-generating discussions, and leads to uniformed forum posts.

[Deathlike]

DrxAbstract, on 05 May 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

Fixing broken Mechs/Variants (Like the SDR-5K) would likely happen from that, assuming Machine Guns get unborked in the process, but it's an example just as I can tell you the Myst Lynx might actually get played more since one of the reasons it's disliked is it's easily disarmed by the sheer amount of damage flying around right now... And Lights/Mediums/Assaults in general might actually see an increase in numbers as their respective attributes (High Speed, Total Armor, etc.) become more appealing... But who knows.

Absolutely not.

The problem with the Mist Lynx is two-fold:

1) Too slow (for a Light). While the Cutefox and Badder are fragile for being oversized, they can kinda at least defend themselves despite being slow. The Mist Lynx does not have that kind of firepower luxury.

2) Arms are HUGE (unlike this Space Trump). For the purposes of hitboxes, they are large and are easy to remove, despite being reinforced with quirks. Since all the weapons are in the arms, pretty much if you aren't legging them, disarming them is just as effective.

So, no.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DrxAbstract, on 05 May 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

Nearly impossible to get them all usable, I agree, but currently less than half are utilized on a regular basis. And I wasnt referring to Quickplay dropping - it was a reference to CW and how the QKD-4G was running 2-3 slots in most IS dropdecks, just like the Thunderbolt 5SS/9SE/9S before it: One dimension gameplay.

Sounds more like a problem with the game mode more than anything, like how it is the worst game mode.

DrxAbstract, on 05 May 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

The UAC5 is a solid choice with or without quirks, whereas the AC5 is a happenstance weapon that needs quirks to compete

All IS weapons need some level of quirks to compete (and structure buffs on mechs to compensate for the XLs), it is the nature of tech balance currently.

DrxAbstract, on 05 May 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

Fixing broken Mechs/Variants (Like the SDR-5K) would likely happen from that, assuming Machine Guns get unborked in the process

SDR-5K is actually used a fair amount in comp, by some of the best teams no less.

[DrxAbstract]

Deathlike, on 05 May 2016 - 11:10 AM, said:

Absolutely not.

The problem with the Mist Lynx is two-fold:

1) Too slow (for a Light). While the Cutefox and Badder are fragile for being oversized, they can kinda at least defend themselves despite being slow. The Mist Lynx does not have that kind of firepower luxury.

2) Arms are HUGE (unlike this Space Trump). For the purposes of hitboxes, they are large and are easy to remove, despite being reinforced with quirks. Since all the weapons are in the arms, pretty much if you aren't legging them, disarming them is just as effective.

So, no.

I said might, not "They definitely will." Having huge arms, and being slow, makes it especially susceptible to being hit, yes? Logical conclusion that less damage going around would make its weaknesses less pronounced, yes? Yes.

P.S. I said might.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DrxAbstract, on 05 May 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

I said might, not "They definitely will." Having huge arms, and being slow, makes it especially susceptible to being hit, yes? Logical conclusion that less damage going around would make its weaknesses less pronounced, yes? Yes.

Less damage going around means it is also even less of a threat, which means nothing really changes. Unless you give it uber quirks to keep its DPS as is currently and nerf everything else.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 May 2016 - 11:22 AM.