482 replies to this topic

[Yosharian]

I'm not worried about the effect it will have on mechs which have diversity in power.

I'm worried about the effect it will have on mechs whose only saving grace is their ridiculous number of hardpoints.

For example I run a 13 energy hardpoint EXE build which is going to be absolutely cripped by Ghost Heat 2.0 (is that what we're calling it?). It has 12SPL which have an effective range of, say, 180m. Yes it has insane alpha strike power, but it has to get into close range to use it.

[Y E O N N E]

Yosharian, on 06 May 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

I'm not worried about the effect it will have on mechs which have diversity in power.

I'm worried about the effect it will have on mechs whose only saving grace is their ridiculous number of hardpoints.

For example I run a 13 energy hardpoint EXE build which is going to be absolutely cripped by Ghost Heat 2.0 (is that what we're calling it?). It has 12SPL which have an effective range of, say, 180m. Yes it has insane alpha strike power, but it has to get into close range to use it.

I expect shorter range weapons will have dramatically lower draw requirements to offset their higher inherent risk.

That is, assuming PGI has and applies common sense. I know, I know, I'm being optimistic.

[SpiralFace]

Yosharian, on 06 May 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

I'm not worried about the effect it will have on mechs which have diversity in power.

I'm worried about the effect it will have on mechs whose only saving grace is their ridiculous number of hardpoints.

For example I run a 13 energy hardpoint EXE build which is going to be absolutely cripped by Ghost Heat 2.0 (is that what we're calling it?). It has 12SPL which have an effective range of, say, 180m. Yes it has insane alpha strike power, but it has to get into close range to use it.

I honestly doubt that it won't get much worse then what you already have running that build.

12 cspl's already gets SLAMMED by Ghost heat if your going around Alphaing with that set up. (Honestly, your getting 72 heat with that alpha under the current system anyways.)

People seem to be making more of a huff about this system because they are assuming its going to close the "loopholes" in the current ghost heat system by supplementing different weapon types like LPL's and standard ML's to get massive alphas at a distance. So under that assumption that this system is primarily there to close the loop holes in the current system, mechs that already "boat" weapons and make due with how they are might be the things that are least effected by this change because they ALREADY are dealing with the currently implemented ghost heat system.

So If your honestly making due with that set up in the current system with your alpha's already being MASSIVELY affected by ghost heat (seriously man, that build right now already suffers 40 extra heat from alpha's alone,) I don't see how a system primarily there to close the loop holes is going to make what your running with right now in the current system worse.

But then again, who knows, I might be wrong, the OP might be wrong, EVERYONE might be right or wrong. As there has been literally ZERO tangible info given on how this system is even supposed to work. Everything at this point is more just wild speculation off of very limited info dropped in the town halls then a review of anything that is actually getting implemented in the game.

[oldradagast]

Yeonne Greene, on 06 May 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

I expect shorter range weapons will have dramatically lower draw requirements to offset their higher inherent risk.

That is, assuming PGI has and applies common sense. I know, I know, I'm being optimistic.

I admire your optimism... I don't share it, though... We'll see what happens, but I have very low hopes for Ghost Heat 2.0.

If it is a limited system where "X damage is the max you can do before Bad Stuff happens," then the meta is simply "deal X long range precision damage and win." This would also kill builds that have high alphas but lousy range and/or a lot of damage scatter, like missiles.

If it is more complex... well, then we're depending upon PGI to understand weapon balance, and I have limited faith in that.

[Spleenslitta]

Xhaleon, on 01 May 2016 - 11:11 PM, said:

We don't know exactly how spooky mechanics 2.0 is going to work, so there is no use complaining about it yet.

So as long as it curbs the effectiveness (-over-time) of alpha vomit builds without actually preventing them from being used, I would have no problem with it. A cooldown penalty would be pretty universal, as opposed to laser duration.

Exactly. We know nothing about the new mechanics yet. But why is everyone so hung up on pinpoint damage anyways?
I get it that pinpoint damage is the more effective way to win but don't we play this game to have fun?
Everyone would get those new mechanics so it affects all of us so there is no worry being left with gimpy mechs that cannot shoot more than 2-3 times during a match.

Let me show you 3 builds i've gotten decent results with that has next to nothing to do with high alpha pinpoint damage.
I didn't give a damn about quirks either. They are kind of like the canon mechs from the TT....a bit of everything thrown into a blender.

Kit Fox: ECM, JJs, 1 small and 1 medium ER laser, 4x MG's and 1 ER PPC or ER LL with a couple of extra heatsinks.

Firestarter 9S: JJ's, 3x Small laser, 2x medium laser, ER PPC or ER LL. 265-280XL engine.
Juggle about the amount of medium lasers and ER LL/ER PPC and engine size according to my mood.

Vindicator 1AA: JJ's, 1x ER PPC in the left arm, SRM6 or SRM4 Artemis, 1 Medium laser in the head 2 in the right arm. 280XL engine.
Yeah i know the 1AA is quirked for the standard PPC and to be quite frank....i didn't give a damn.
I only fire the ER PPC at medium and long range anyhow so the heat isn't overwhelming.

I got loads of variations for each of these 3 mechs which are my favorites.
I got a weapon for every situation and whenever i end up close i only fire the ER LL/ER PPC if there is an emergency or i can spare the heat.
Remember all those long range opportunities you've had when you're in a short range brawler build?
I can take advantage of all opportunities that come my way because i got a weapon for every range.
All those opportunities i can take advantage of ends up becoming a sizable amount of damage by the time the match comes to an end.

To top it off i can fire a single ER PPC very often in comparison to someone who dual wields them. So the lesser amount of longrange firepower isn't as bad as it looks on paper.
And that selection of light weapons is much more powerfull than a second ER PPC could ever be at shorter ranges.

[Yosharian]

SpiralFace, on 06 May 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

I honestly doubt that it won't get much worse then what you already have running that build.

12 cspl's already gets SLAMMED by Ghost heat if your going around Alphaing with that set up. (Honestly, your getting 72 heat with that alpha under the current system anyways.)

People seem to be making more of a huff about this system because they are assuming its going to close the "loopholes" in the current ghost heat system by supplementing different weapon types like LPL's and standard ML's to get massive alphas at a distance. So under that assumption that this system is primarily there to close the loop holes in the current system, mechs that already "boat" weapons and make due with how they are might be the things that are least effected by this change because they ALREADY are dealing with the currently implemented ghost heat system.

So If your honestly making due with that set up in the current system with your alpha's already being MASSIVELY affected by ghost heat (seriously man, that build right now already suffers 40 extra heat from alpha's alone,) I don't see how a system primarily there to close the loop holes is going to make what your running with right now in the current system worse.

But then again, who knows, I might be wrong, the OP might be wrong, EVERYONE might be right or wrong. As there has been literally ZERO tangible info given on how this system is even supposed to work. Everything at this point is more just wild speculation off of very limited info dropped in the town halls then a review of anything that is actually getting implemented in the game.

OBVIOUSLY I'm not strictly alpha'ing because of the ghost heat, that would be insane (12SPL alpha is instant shutdown). I'm talking about two strikes of 36 damage each, complemented by the ERPPC firing when its off cooldown. Which is enough damage to get shafted by GH2.0.

Yeonne Greene, on 06 May 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

I expect shorter range weapons will have dramatically lower draw requirements to offset their higher inherent risk.

That is, assuming PGI has and applies common sense. I know, I know, I'm being optimistic.

Those are some bold assumptions, friend. Yes, of course it would make sense for GH2.0 to take into account range. I'm not going to hold my breath. I'm going to assume that the new system will simply penalise weapon strikes based on damage only. That's a fair assumption based on PGI's track record.

oldradagast, on 06 May 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

I admire your optimism... I don't share it, though... We'll see what happens, but I have very low hopes for Ghost Heat 2.0.

If it is a limited system where "X damage is the max you can do before Bad Stuff happens," then the meta is simply "deal X long range precision damage and win." This would also kill builds that have high alphas but lousy range and/or a lot of damage scatter, like missiles.

If it is more complex... well, then we're depending upon PGI to understand weapon balance, and I have limited faith in that.

Exactly. Unless weapon variance is taken into account, the new system is simply going to penalise weapon systems and weapon combinations that don't need nerfing (and in the case of SRMs, still need a bit of a buff).

Edited by Yosharian, 06 May 2016 - 10:41 AM.

[Gyrok]

Somehow, I foresee 3-4 chain fired PPCs being a thing if this really goes through....

[oldradagast]

Gyrok, on 06 May 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

Somehow, I foresee 3-4 chain fired PPCs being a thing if this really goes through....

My fear exactly.

30 points of damage is not always the same. This is not a game where all weapons have the same range, the same precision, the same everything and just differ in the effects.

Not only would force chain-fired PPC's be bad, imagine the effects on SRM's and LRM's. Oh, look at the scary high alpha numbers... except there are range issues with both of them.. and they scatter damage... and so on.

[Spleenslitta]

Did Russ say any specifics other than saying that we would be lucky to be able to alpha strike once or twice during a match?
Did he say anything about when the new heat system would be in place?

Just digging for info here. I'm somewhat optimistic about what i've heard so far. I won't draw any conclusion before i've heard some more concrete details about though.

[oldradagast]

Spleenslitta, on 06 May 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

Did Russ say any specifics other than saying that we would be lucky to be able to alpha strike once or twice during a match?
Did he say anything about when the new heat system would be in place?

Just digging for info here. I'm somewhat optimistic about what i've heard so far. I won't draw any conclusion before i've heard some more concrete details about though.

Something like that... although that raise new, horrible ideas. What if he literally means "you'll rarely be able to fire all of your weapons in a game" or "all of a given type" thus forcing people to either fire all but one weapon or use everything in chain fire, regardless of how stupidly ineffective that will be.

I wish they would stop doing this. The constant threat of "changing everything" ever few months, be it Ghost Heat 2.0, mech scaling, quirks, or whatever has really killed any enthusiasm I have on spending money on this game since I have no idea anymore what I'll be buying. And still the crummy mechs and useless weapons are not addressed... UGH!

[Gas Guzzler]

Spleenslitta, on 06 May 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

Did Russ say any specifics other than saying that we would be lucky to be able to alpha strike once or twice during a match?
Did he say anything about when the new heat system would be in place?

Just digging for info here. I'm somewhat optimistic about what i've heard so far. I won't draw any conclusion before i've heard some more concrete details about though.

He didn't even say that. Daeron steered him into agreeing that it would combat "low TTK and alpha warrior online". Don't know why you are optimistic.. many mechs that make other mechs evaporate quickly don't rely on alpha strikes.

I would much rather they spend time properly balancing mechs and weapons. Some adjustments to lasers like adjusting the ridiculously short LPL duration will help TTK along the way.

[cazidin]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 May 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

He didn't even say that. Daeron steered him into agreeing that it would combat "low TTK and alpha warrior online". Don't know why you are optimistic.. many mechs that make other mechs evaporate quickly don't rely on alpha strikes.

I would much rather they spend time properly balancing mechs and weapons. Some adjustments to lasers like adjusting the ridiculously short LPL duration will help TTK along the way.

Or, adjust heat and implement a better heat scale?

[SpiralFace]

Yosharian, on 06 May 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

OBVIOUSLY I'm not strictly alpha'ing because of the ghost heat, that would be insane (12SPL alpha is instant shutdown). I'm talking about two strikes of 36 damage each, complemented by the ERPPC firing when its off cooldown. Which is enough damage to get shafted by GH2.0.

If its anything like the 7 SPL penelty, I'm sure it will be negligable. (I run a 7 spl power fist on my EXE and never bother with trying to avoid the penelty.)

Its not like breaking ghost heat every now and then is terrible. SRM splat bombers can get away with it, and even low heat small lasers and even ML's don't really have that much of an impact. If its anything like that, I see it modifying a few builds much like the Heat sink nerfs took off a Medium laser from the T-wolf C builds but not much else.

Again, no one knows what ANY of this does and to what extent. If is anything like the current way breaking Ghost heat for spl's are, it might not even be noticeable just like the extra "2" heat you get for breaking 7 spls currently.

[Spleenslitta]

oldradagast, on 06 May 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

zip....because my post is long enough as it is.

Gas Guzzler, on 06 May 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

Zip for ditto reason.

Let me first to say that i do not say anything here to make fun of you guys or with any ill intent whatsoever.
I don't even want to brag of my exploits. My point is to prove that the current meta is not the only way to play.

So what if your mechs cannot do looooooaaaads of damage in just a few seconds with the new upcoming heat mechanic anyways?
The dev's wants to make MWO into a thinking players game. Pushing one button to constantly to fire all your weapons doesn't require much of our brains.

Optimisation of damage on a certain range ain't all there is to the game you know. High alpha and chain fire ain't all there is to it either.
I've been using mechs that don't rely on high alpha strikes/ chain firing or range specialist builds for a long time now and i do better than average.

Am i better than other players? Nope. No way. I'm average as far as fighting ability goes.
I run into obstacles and all kinds of silly stuff.
I even play away from my team....yup. I'm a lone ranger lunatic.

Despite all my crazy anthics i got above average KDR (1.43) and win/losses (2009/1794) for those that count that.
Yeah....it's not crazy high stats but i do better than average so i must be doing something right and that's the point----
- i'm doing something right despite doing stuff directly opposite of the meta builds and tactics.
This isn't due to skill. It's due to the fact that i've found another way to play.

My mechs are kinda like the canon mechs in that i throw a bunch of weapons into a blender. I don't even care about quirks much when i select my weapons.
I look at a mechs appearance and torso/arm twisting/pitch and engine size limits looong before i even look at the quirks when i buy one.
But most important of all i enjoy my crazy builds far more than having just a single weapon group.

Example mechs.
Firestarter 9S - 3x SLs, 2MLs, ER PPC or ER LL, JJs, 265-280XL engine. I shuffle weapons suitable for my mood.
Kit Fox - 4x MGs, JJ, ECM, 1 ERSL, 1 ERML, ER PPC or ER LL and a couple of extra heatsinks.
Vindicator 1AA - a mix of SL/ML, SRM6, ER PPC, JJs, 280XL.

Yup....don't give a damn about the 1AAs standard PPC quirk or the Firestarter 9S MPL quirk. I pick a bunch of weapons i like.

[Lugh]

Gyrok, on 06 May 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

Somehow, I foresee 3-4 chain fired PPCs being a thing if this really goes through....

You say that as if the .1 between those shots makes any difference at all to the end result...

[Gas Guzzler]

Spleenslitta, on 06 May 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

stuff

You are missing the point. For those who play this game at a high level, this IS a thinking man's shooter, the thinking just comes into play with positioning, team strategies, and tactics, not using more mouse buttons (which btw, my laser vomit Black Knight has 4 weapon groups and I use all of them). In what way do those builds you describe require you to 'think' more? The thinking comes into play in order to set yourself up for the "1 button fire all weapons" situation. Firing them in groups because of an arbitrary alpha strike limiter doesn't make you think more, it just means you are exposed for longer and will die faster.

Btw, standard PPC quirks work on ER PPCs as well so you ARE taking full advantage of that.

[Spleenslitta]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 May 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

You are missing the point. For those who play this game at a high level, this IS a thinking man's shooter, the thinking just comes into play with positioning, team strategies, and tactics, not using more mouse buttons (which btw, my laser vomit Black Knight has 4 weapon groups and I use all of them). In what way do those builds you describe require you to 'think' more? The thinking comes into play in order to set yourself up for the "1 button fire all weapons" situation. Firing them in groups because of an arbitrary alpha strike limiter doesn't make you think more, it just means you are exposed for longer and will die faster.

Btw, standard PPC quirks work on ER PPCs as well so you ARE taking full advantage of that.

Well...i can explain how i don't get exposed for long during my attacks. Short version is that i come out of cover- shoot once and maybe twice- relocate and do the same over again- Then a loooong relocation- unpredictable running around.

I've played against those that are of high skill yourself included. Fighting skill and builds matters not if my enemy cannot strike back.
Unfortunatly how i manage to escape the wrath of players no matter how skilled they are requires a very long read.
Best summary i can make with a few key words- unpredictability, versatile weapon selection, persistence, patience and speed.

Link to loooooong read textwall monstrousity of immense proportions.
http://mwomercs.com/...-tactics-guide/

As for the PPC quirk...someone else told me otherwise....Whom should i believe?
But it doesn't matter i guess. I don't care much either way.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Spleenslitta, on 06 May 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

As for the PPC quirk...someone else told me otherwise....Whom should i believe?
But it doesn't matter i guess. I don't care much either way.

You can easily check this, but hovering over the weapon in the mechlab and it will list all quirks that apply to that weapon.

[Spleenslitta]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 May 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

You can easily check this, but hovering over the weapon in the mechlab and it will list all quirks that apply to that weapon.

Really? Thanks. New feature?
Haven't played MWO in over half a year so i'm not fully up to date.

[MischiefSC]

Dimento Graven, on 05 May 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

Uh huh... Yeah... So a few tests, for a few days, on a the PTS with 'some folks' constitutes a "thorough" and "official" test?

I'm not being salty at you, the sarcasm is for even the remotest possibility that PGI thought it was acceptable, and considering some of the absolutely untested **** they've foisted upon us in the past, IF what you say is true, it was a ******** non-event. Something staged so that PGI could say, "No, it won't work", giving themselves a cop out so that they wouldn't have to put the effort into writing a new match making mechanism.

The testing I remember on the PTS was just Clans v everything, 12-v-12, not just Clans v IS, and it was Clans at the value PGI was going to release the Clans at, at that time.

No... I'm not convinced there ever was a REAL "official" 10-v-12 Clans vs. IS test.

It was 2 years ago and I missed the window to participate so I'm not going to try to say for certain, however a truly scientific run would be unnecessary. It confirmed a few clear things -

With liquid metal mech customization IS mechs in MWO are significantly better than stock.

Focus fire/ more mechs > individual mech advantage in a fps.

Balancing individual mech values to a comparable performance envelope is way easier than trying to force an unequal player population balance.

Players will gravitate to the best individual performing mechs. Players value their individual stats over success of their team on average.

Even in TT the Clan/IS balance was crap for a competitive event. It was never "balanced" outside of player gentlemans agreements to get around the inevitable balance breakers (CLPLs, vehicle swarms, elemental swarms, Clan focus fire and crit-boating, TC for 1 in 6 headshots, etc).

Again - the broken balance was abandoned by the developer. It was never a good system and a pvp FPS environment magnifies those flaws.