482 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Yosharian, on 06 May 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

I'm not worried about the effect it will have on mechs which have diversity in power.

I'm worried about the effect it will have on mechs whose only saving grace is their ridiculous number of hardpoints.

For example I run a 13 energy hardpoint EXE build which is going to be absolutely cripped by Ghost Heat 2.0 (is that what we're calling it?). It has 12SPL which have an effective range of, say, 180m. Yes it has insane alpha strike power, but it has to get into close range to use it.

Will it? You have any details about what this new system is going to be?

You can't get up in arms about specifics of the system when you've got no idea whatsoever what the specifics are.

SpiralFace, on 06 May 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

But then again, who knows, I might be wrong, the OP might be wrong, EVERYONE might be right or wrong. As there has been literally ZERO tangible info given on how this system is even supposed to work. Everything at this point is more just wild speculation off of very limited info dropped in the town halls then a review of anything that is actually getting implemented in the game.

/thread.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 May 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

You are missing the point. For those who play this game at a high level, this IS a thinking man's shooter, the thinking just comes into play with positioning, team strategies, and tactics, not using more mouse buttons (which btw, my laser vomit Black Knight has 4 weapon groups and I use all of them). In what way do those builds you describe require you to 'think' more? The thinking comes into play in order to set yourself up for the "1 button fire all weapons" situation. Firing them in groups because of an arbitrary alpha strike limiter doesn't make you think more, it just means you are exposed for longer and will die faster.

Btw, standard PPC quirks work on ER PPCs as well so you ARE taking full advantage of that.

To a degree in agree. However the only thing alpha strike mechanic does is try to narrow having many weapons into 1 weapon for the sake of simplifying.

In many ways what you're talking about is simplification as an advantage - reducing tactical choices to limit potential mistakes. In the same way the current map design of funneling people into narrow areas reduces potential exposure and gives a more manageable tactical environment.

That's the exact same thing as the alpha strike setup. Doing the math to build a mech with 1 superweapon to maximize single location damage, minimize exposure and best consistent range performance.

The end result is removing complexity because keep it simple = kill secured. Is that more "thinking man's shooter"? I'm not so sure.

Would reducing weapon synergy to promote Franken builds, reducing TTK by reducing single alpha efficiency be a better environment?

To put another way, which is more tactical? A game where you carry a pistol, shotgun and sniper and can choose to discard 1 of those for 3 grenades, is that more tactical than a game where you've got 1 assault rifle that's effective in most all situations and everyone has grenades?

In the first situation it's about using the right weapon for the job and managing ammo for all 3. In the second the weapon is largely irrelevant- it's a damage stat that's consistent and effective. The strategy of the second is just positioning. Sometimes you get opponents using a pistol/shotgun you can beat just on principle of your better weapon but generally it's just being in the shoot first fade first situation.

The only reason I'm not more in favor of gimping alphas is that I'm not sure a Franken build environment would not limit loadouts just as much or that PGI would do so in a way that would improve the game.

Just saying though that the strategy of alpha strikes is based on reducing complexity and limiting competing strategies. It's not more thinking, it's actively reducing it to reduce potential mistakes.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 06 May 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

Would reducing weapon synergy to promote Franken builds, reducing TTK by reducing single alpha efficiency be a better environment?

Reducing weapon synergy just puts the focus on boating a single weapon type rather than actually encouraging diversity, part of the reason builds devolve the way they do is because a lot of weapons lack synergy like they do in BT. It isn't something that is unique to alpha mechs either, dps builds like dakka boats are just as guilty.

Example: LL and AC10 have the same brackets meaning you can use AC10s and LLs together and not odd weapons that don't play well with your brackets. In this game I wouldn't ever use them together because they do not synergize at all together. There is a reason PPC/ML boats are so strong in tech 1, and that's because their ranges compliment each other (different from the AC10/LL combo though). Specialization will always be a thing, and that means not mixing weapons that behave differently, whether that means not mixing weapons with strongly dissimilar velocities/role (dakka and laser vomit)/etc.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 May 2016 - 02:36 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 May 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

Reducing weapon synergy just puts the focus on boating a single weapon type rather than actually encouraging diversity, part of the reason builds devolve the way they do is because a lot of weapons lack synergy like they do in BT. It isn't something that is unique to alpha mechs either, dps builds like dakka boats are just as guilty.

Example: LL and AC10 have the same brackets meaning you can use AC10s and LLs together and not odd weapons that don't play well with your brackets. In this game I wouldn't ever use them together because they do not synergize at all together. There is a reason PPC/ML boats are so strong in tech 1, and that's because their ranges compliment each other (different from the AC10/LL combo though). Specialization will always be a thing, and that means not mixing weapons that behave differently, whether that means not mixing weapons with strongly dissimilar velocities/role (dakka and laser vomit)/etc.

So I get your logic. However the problem becomes that the whole point seems to be to always try and build a single superweapon. That the ideal goal would be a single high mounted laser with 58 damage, 33 heat and optimal range of 300m instead of 3lpl and 5 mls.

So in the analogy above there's no situation where you're running the pistol, shotgun and sniper rifle. For you the game begins with building the assault rifle out of whatever weapons are available, stocking grenades and playing. That's the game - get the best overall single weapon find positioning.

So instead of strategy around building the best set of tools and using them it's about building 1 tool that does everything and using it the same way every time.

Not saying I'm all for frankenbuilds but the idea that all strategy starts with building mechs around 1 superweapon is a false dichotomy. Ideally you've got a varied loadout and the strategy is around effective control of range and positioning. That and more total rolls = more likely TAC

I get that this is a product of a FPS environment and convergence but superweapon isn't the only way to have strategy. The current system is based on reducing complexity, not making complex decisions.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 06 May 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

That's the game - get the best overall single weapon for how you want to play.

I fixed that for you, everyone isn't using the same assault rifle, they are using different guns, but just that one gun, because the specialization always make more sense.

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 May 2016 - 05:18 PM, said:

I fixed that for you, everyone isn't using the same assault rifle, they are using different guns, but just that one gun, because the specialization always make more sense.

In this game, right now.

It doesn't have to be that way.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 May 2016 - 05:18 PM, said:

I fixed that for you, everyone isn't using the same assault rifle, they are using different guns, but just that one gun, because the specialization always make more sense.

More or less. More to the point it's the one setup with the best performance over the biggest range. A slow SRM boat is dubious for example.

It's not just about specialization however - it's the nature of convergence and the existing (lack of) heatscale to make a single combined weapon super efficient by comparison to an adaptive one.

That in turn prompts a system of reducing tactical complexity to convert all engagements into a single repeatable process.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's bad, just that it's not the only or even best way to approach weapon, heat and armor balance nor the most strategic.

Edited by MischiefSC, 06 May 2016 - 05:33 PM.

[Wintersdark]

MischiefSC, on 06 May 2016 - 05:28 PM, said:

More or less. More to the point it's the one setup with the best performance over the biggest range. A slow SRM boat is dubious for example.

It's not just about specialization however - it's the mature of convergence and the existing (lack of) heatscale to make a single combined weapon super efficient by comparison to an adaptive one.

That in turn prompts a system of reducing tactical complexity to convert all engagements into a single repeatable process.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's bad, just that it's not the only or even best way to approach weapon, heat and armor balance nor the most strategic.

Indeed. I don't fault people for doing it; as as things currently stand it's the best way to go. There's lots of factors that feed into it.

But that doesn't mean that's the best way for the game to work or that it always has to be that way.

One can dream.

I will say: I'm glad that they've at least moved from the old combined hardpoints, where you'd have multiple hardpoints at a single point in the model after hardpoint inflation. That REALLY fed into Superweapon building. At least now, they're firing from different physical locations. Baby steps =/

[Afuldan McKronik]

Its an unknown, and with RB saying that it breaks hitreg somehow, I think it isn't even going to be introduced. I would rather play HighAlpha then BrokenHitRegWTFIsThisCrap.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 06 May 2016 - 05:22 PM, said:

In this game, right now.

It doesn't have to be that way.

You would have to do something crazy to actually make that plausible, and it would be incredibly forced. Its funny because in a lot of other team games that try to encourage roles, they tend to force specialization (TF2/Overwatch/etc), yet here we are in this game, and it seems people would rather every mech try and be the same bland bracket jack-of-all-trades rather than specialized builds. I get people don't like that weapon combinations tend to be very bland and that the meta tends has in the past encouraged a pretty limited number of builds, but that is more to do with crappy balance and anti-synergy nerfs.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 May 2016 - 05:36 PM, said:

You would have to do something crazy to actually make that plausible, and it would be incredibly forced. Its funny because in a lot of other team games that try to encourage roles, they tend to force specialization (TF2/Overwatch/etc), yet here we are in this game, and it seems people would rather every mech try and be the same bland bracket jack-of-all-trades rather than specialized builds. I get people don't like that weapon combinations tend to be very bland and that the meta tends has in the past encouraged a pretty limited number of builds, but that is more to do with crappy balance and anti-synergy nerfs.

Nah, still have roles just a bit more strategic about it. I'm hugely in favor of doubling down on focused fire - I'm in favor of growing the width and depth of the skill curve. As in a good team being miles ahead of a scrub team and a mediocre team measurably superior to a bad team. We currently have a very fat, sharp distribution. 80% in a close skill range then a sharp drop for 2% or so at the top and 18% at the back who are happy to do 150 damage in QP and 500 in fw. Would rather stretch that out to more than one distribution. As in as big a gap between "average" to "good" as "good" has to "best".

Cut armor in half. Reduce weapons to their tt value every 10 seconds as a DPS/cooldown value. So your PPC might do 3.3 per hit for 3.3 heat every 3.3 seconds. ACs work almost like MGs, etc. Drastically increase projectile speed while having convergence slightly less than perfect. Not wild, but not pixel perfect.

This changed mechanics to be less about poke, shoot, cool and more about a chess style putting them in a position to take sustained damage. So a TTK 1 v 1 odds about 15-20 seconds with bigger mechs, 5-10 with lights/mediums. Multiple people shooting one target reduces ttk exponentially so while in the current system the difference between 1 and 3 second ttk is minimal the difference between 20 and 10 or even 5 is dramatic.

Also, actual heat scale over 10 seconds with speed, mobility and convergence nerfs for high heat.

Also go back to 4v4 and 8v8, save 12v12 for only a handful of FW big maps - that don't have ******* moba map design.

Balance more toward a chess strategy than all run n gun. This doubles down on focus fire and teamwork which is really all this game offers over other fps.

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 06 May 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

Nah, still have roles just a bit more strategic about it.

Mechs should be specialized to their roles. That is why it is their role...

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 May 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

Mechs should be specialized to their roles. That is why it is their role...

Mech 1: "My role is to do everything!"

Mech 2: "My role is also to do everything!"

Mech 3: "I have to do ALL the things, ALL THE TIME!"

Mech 4: "Uh guys, I think this is getting out of hand..."

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 May 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

Mechs should be specialized to their roles. That is why it is their role...

Sure, but that doesn't mean things have to be glued together superweapons. I'm not against specialization, I just dislike bland "stick all the weapons together" things.

Incidentally, I feel - as Quicksilver said above - that the forced desync changes caused this problem, in many ways. For example, I felt that while the AC5/PPC thing was somewhat problematic, you're at least using two very different weapons. They work well together, and different weapons working well together isn't a problem.

It's way better than "Lets just smash 3 LPL's here, or 6SPL's there".

But alas. Whatever. I'll admit, I'm too tired to really think too hard about this, and I doubt it's going to fundamentally change.

My interest in the power draw system (of which we know nothing) is purely in that I detest Ghost Heat with a consuming passion (yes, it fixed a couple problems, but is easily worked around and presents it's own new problems) and I just want to try something else for a while. Anything else. God, I hate ghost heat.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 May 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

Mechs should be specialized to their roles. That is why it is their role...

There is a difference between having a role and being specialized and having mech design based around how to best merge multiple weapons into 1 weapon. Having a long range mech would also be cool if that meant you had the best tools for sustaining the damage you can inflict at long range plus maintaining gong range instead of "I have 4 high mounted erlls for either 1 high heat 36pt laser or increase my uber lasers burn time by 0.5 seconds in to 27 and 9 pts chunks for marginal heat reduction to give a 3rd burn before I have to wait in cover for 6 seconds".

My frustration is with the idea that the only way to make a mech specialized (which means optimized) is to build it as a single weapon build of many numerous weapons as identical in performance as possible for 1 shot kills.

So if SRMS did 1/2 damage with a 5 second cooldown while an ac20 did 2pt per second (with great accuracy) and low heat the Atlas would still rock face by keeping the dakka rain, lasers and ever5 5 seconds a (comperable) big burst of damage.

Remember, all armor back to 1/2 current value. So that Atlas is doing almost 80 pts every 10 seconds, which is enough to kill just about anything. Conversely your Black Knight is doing about 58 pts per 10 seconds. More precision but he's no longer able to secure good odds of a win against an Atlas at brawling range. That Atlas is now a truly monstrous beast at point blank while the BK is better suited to sustained fights at more range, rather than being able to kill most assaults in 3 seconds with decent aim.

Result? The value of teamwork and focus fire and good positioning for sustaining fire is way more valuable. A mix of weapons (ballistic, srm and energy) isn't inherently inferior because dps is balanced over 10 seconds and superior accuracy is offset by longer FaceTime while missiles are about the only ppfld.

Again. Not saying that's inherently better but it's also not less tactical. The current model of building a deathstar weapon for solo kills in 3 seconds (or less) is about eliminating risk, complexity and variables. That is the current system we have, doesn't mean it's the only way to do it.

Could also have weapons heat neutral (like TT) over 10 seconds while having a heatscale add negatives for short term heat spikes.

I get why and I'm happy to play the system we have. Doesn't mean it's the best one though.

[Vickinator]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 May 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

Mechs should be specialized to their roles. That is why it is their role...

Specialized for what? The only thing that counts in this game is spamming the alpha strike key as much as you can and core the enemy as quickly as possibly. Maybe when you get near high heat do you need to rotate fire, otherwise there are no roles.

[H I A S]

Quote

However the problem becomes that the whole point seems to be to always try and build a single superweapon.

You allways build a Mech to be Master of one Rangebracket.

U wanna brawl? Dont use ERLL
u wanna snipe? Dont use SRM

Every Weapons that's outside of your Rangebracket is a waste of tonnage.

[Nightbird]

arivio, on 06 May 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

You allways build a Mech to be Master of one Rangebracket.

U wanna brawl? Dont use ERLL
u wanna snipe? Dont use SRM

Every Weapons that's outside of your Rangebracket is a waste of tonnage.

This is a fallacy created by game design, each map is designed to be approachable with every weapon. Once you know the map layout, the spawn locations, and likely enemy positions, you can always place yourself where you are not hampered by boating specific range of weapons. I think the easiest way to discourage boating is to:

1) add maps that penalize boating - vast, flat, scorching plains with little/no cover - a dense metropolis with overhangs, narrow streets, and no places a mech can stretch its arms out - an enchanting forest with 100 meter tall trees in rolling hills and ravines, and dense fog that reduces visibility

2) randomizing spawn locations a little (maybe 6 locations/map where the enemy is placed in one of 3 possible locations on opposite side)

[L3mming2]

Spleenslitta, on 06 May 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

Really? Thanks. New feature?
Haven't played MWO in over half a year so i'm not fully up to date.

sorry to say but it kinda shows

[H I A S]

ironnightbird, on 07 May 2016 - 12:56 AM, said:

This is a fallacy created by game design, each map is designed to be approachable with every weapon. Once you know the map layout, the spawn locations, and likely enemy positions, you can always place yourself where you are not hampered by boating specific range of weapons. I think the easiest way to discourage boating is to:

1) add maps that penalize boating - vast, flat, scorching plains with little/no cover - a dense metropolis with overhangs, narrow streets, and no places a mech can stretch its arms out - an enchanting forest with 100 meter tall trees in rolling hills and ravines, and dense fog that reduces visibility

2) randomizing spawn locations a little (maybe 6 locations/map where the enemy is placed in one of 3 possible locations on opposite side)

To be fair. Since MW3 is all about boat or go home. I mean can you remember the erll novacat from MW4?