482 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

arivio, on 07 May 2016 - 03:11 AM, said:

To be fair. Since MW3 is all about boat or go home. I mean can you remember the erll novacat from MW4?

I guess I was referring to the games in general. Within the universe, the mechs have to deal with all sorts of threats without the possibility of a refit right? Mechs had to fight through urban and natural environments, against small, large, flying enemies, where boating means you can be suddenly out of luck when you had to fight one helicopter while boating SRMs, or against infantry shooting RPGs with a laser boat in an urban environment. Loadout diversity makes sense for a book or even as a thought exercise, but not at all as the games are designed.

[MischiefSC]

arivio, on 06 May 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

You allways build a Mech to be Master of one Rangebracket.

U wanna brawl? Dont use ERLL
u wanna snipe? Dont use SRM

Every Weapons that's outside of your Rangebracket is a waste of tonnage.

I don't disagree (with the possible exception of overlap, such as LPLs and MLs obviously) however the real issue is with alpha synergy, at least in as far as this conversation. While in a few fringe cases you mix weapons of a particular type as a given rule the 'ideal' metabuild has all your weapons working as one weapon in a single alpha. All missiles, all lasers, all ballistics. Because the best function is shoot, shoot, fade to cool as that's 1 kill.

It's a product of perfect convergence, accuracy, no heat scale and the other general game design decisions. The best weapon loadout is one that functions like a single big weapon. The 90pt alpha on an Atlas is functionally inferior to the 58 pt alpha on a Black Knight because the BK can put that 58 pts on a single location in under a second, do that twice, kill someone and pull back to cool. The Atlas won't get the same precision and has to be very close to do so. The only reason BK vs Atlas isn't terribly one-sided in favor of the BK is the Atlas structure quirks. Even with 0 quirks for either mech the BK has a functional advantage. Even at 25 tons lighter and 35% less 'firepower'. The only purpose heat serves is limiting how many back to back alphas a mech can put out.

At this point we're far afield from anything that would see the light of day and, again, I'm fine with how the game plays. It's not bad. This debate however came up from the discussion of tactics in current gameplay vs other options. I'm strongly of the opinion that a much better developer could, relatively easily, build a system that made mixed loadouts (for example AC20, SRMs and MLs) every bit as viable as 100% missiles/100% lasers/100% identical ballistics.

I don't argue that a mech built for a specific range bracket has an advantage. I would say there's terribly little overlap in that in MW:O however - honestly the best options are to built to ~350-400m. In a good team you can run SRMs on specific maps for some dedicated splat roles but what we really have is an artificial variety created by over-quirking. The Mauler is a terrible mech and ballistics are inferior weapons - however it's got a bunch of quirks to create 1-2 viable builds and it happens to hit a tonnage sweet spot. That's not real 'variety'. If all quirks went away you'd run something else in that tonnage bracket almost universally.

It's not even an argument about boating - it's about a system based around building a single alpha that's 2 shots to a kill for 75% of enemies. Precision + no heatscale + instant convergence pushes the single superweapon design. I think there's several options that would be better.

[MischiefSC]

ironnightbird, on 07 May 2016 - 03:37 AM, said:

I guess I was referring to the games in general. Within the universe, the mechs have to deal with all sorts of threats without the possibility of a refit right? Mechs had to fight through urban and natural environments, against small, large, flying enemies, where boating means you can be suddenly out of luck when you had to fight one helicopter while boating SRMs, or against infantry shooting RPGs with a laser boat in an urban environment. Loadout diversity makes sense for a book or even as a thought exercise, but not at all as the games are designed.

Well, to be fair most mechs in BT were built to a range bracket. They just generally kept ~1 or 2 tons for a backup weapon for contingencies. An MG or two, maybe an ML or two for a LRM boat. When most mechs had side torsos with < 30 pts of armor 2 MLs was potentially threatening. Enough to give you a chance to get to help or chase off a damaged enemy. A single long range weapon that was still viable at close range to supplement a long range mech wasn't a bad idea either - the Griffin, with LRMs and a PPC was an iffy mech. Every single variant generally involved replacing either the LRM with SRMs or the PPC with lasers, or both for that very reason.

There's value in range diversity. 3 LPLs and 4 MLs is superior to 8 MPLs not because 5 extra damage but because the better range on the LPLs makes it more flexible. This value climbs as face-time to do damage increases. Add 1 second to all weapon durations and you'll find a lot more value in diversity. Lock engines to stock and that'd go way up as average speeds would drop, limiting your ability to control engagement ranges to leverage specialization.

Meh. Anyway. Far afield. Some sort of heatscale reflected by the proposed power draw mechanic might be okay. I am dubious that PGI will at this point introduce any significant changes from what we already have however.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 07 May 2016 - 04:29 AM, said:

The 90pt alpha on an Atlas is functionally inferior to the 58 pt alpha on a Black Knight because the BK can put that 58 pts on a single location in under a second, do that twice, kill someone and pull back to cool. The Atlas won't get the same precision and has to be very close to do so. The only reason BK vs Atlas isn't terribly one-sided in favor of the BK is the Atlas structure quirks. Even with 0 quirks for either mech the BK has a functional advantage. Even at 25 tons lighter and 35% less 'firepower'. The only purpose heat serves is limiting how many back to back alphas a mech can put out.

Assuming equal pilots, in a brawl push the BK has no chance of survival vs. the Atlas in a 1v1. It's only chance is to try and keep the Atlas at 400+m long enough to try and cut through enough armor before it hits heat limit and gets wrecked.


Unless something goes horrendously wrong, the Atlas should win every time in a brawl situation vs. BK.

[Y E O N N E]

ironnightbird, on 07 May 2016 - 12:56 AM, said:

This is a fallacy created by game design, each map is designed to be approachable with every weapon. Once you know the map layout, the spawn locations, and likely enemy positions, you can always place yourself where you are not hampered by boating specific range of weapons. I think the easiest way to discourage boating is to:

1) add maps that penalize boating - vast, flat, scorching plains with little/no cover - a dense metropolis with overhangs, narrow streets, and no places a mech can stretch its arms out - an enchanting forest with 100 meter tall trees in rolling hills and ravines, and dense fog that reduces visibility

2) randomizing spawn locations a little (maybe 6 locations/map where the enemy is placed in one of 3 possible locations on opposite side)

None of that in the first point penalizes boating. Big open map encourages you to boat anything that gives long range, sustainable DPS. Urban map encourages you to boat anything that lets you do the maximum amount of damage in one shot. Fog...kind of similar to the open map, except it discourages ammo-dependent builds since you might need range but can't take the risk of wasting too many shots.

And in the second one, that also doesn't really discourage boating, it just adds an element of randomness that can make or break any game regardless of chosen strat or equipment.

[Nightbird]

Yeonne Greene, on 07 May 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

None of that in the first point penalizes boating. Big open map encourages you to boat anything that gives long range, sustainable DPS. Urban map encourages you to boat anything that lets you do the maximum amount of damage in one shot. Fog...kind of similar to the open map, except it discourages ammo-dependent builds since you might need range but can't take the risk of wasting too many shots.

And in the second one, that also doesn't really discourage boating, it just adds an element of randomness that can make or break any game regardless of chosen strat or equipment.

First - only short range weapons on plains, or only lrms in city will be pretty punishing
Second - there is not as strong an automatic front line/rear line from familiarity with maps, along with an automatic place to go with your long rage/short range build

[Y E O N N E]

ironnightbird, on 07 May 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

First - only short range weapons on plains, or only lrms in city will be pretty punishing

Discouraging players from boating one particular range bracket is not the same thing as discouraging boating in general. You've just encouraged them to boat a different bracket.

Quote

Second - there is not as strong an automatic front line/rear line from familiarity with maps, along with an automatic place to go with your long rage/short range build

The map itself hasn't changed. All you have to do is avoid the enemy long enough to get where you are supposed to be.

[MischiefSC]

Ultimax, on 07 May 2016 - 06:42 AM, said:

Assuming equal pilots, in a brawl push the BK has no chance of survival vs. the Atlas in a 1v1. It's only chance is to try and keep the Atlas at 400+m long enough to try and cut through enough armor before it hits heat limit and gets wrecked.


Unless something goes horrendously wrong, the Atlas should win every time in a brawl situation vs. BK.

No quirks. So the Atlas is lpls at 400m , then at 270m he'll probably be dead before he gets a second AC 20 shot off.

It's why Atlases were never used before megabuffs.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 07 May 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

No quirks. So the Atlas is lpls at 400m , then at 270m he'll probably be dead before he gets a second AC 20 shot off.

It's why Atlases were never used before megabuffs.

Black Knights weren't used before they got real quirks either.

Do you take those away too? So it overheat's faster, has shorter effective range and has less structure, less agility and relies on XL engine?

Edited by Ultimax, 07 May 2016 - 01:35 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Ultimax, on 07 May 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

Black Knights weren't used before they got real quirks either.

Do you take those away too? So it overheat's faster, has shorter effective range and has less structure, less agility and relies on XL engine?

In a 1 v 1 with an Atlas? Yeah, absolutel. 3 lpl 4ml, 53 pts alpha? He's still 2 alphas under heatcap. 2 or 3 LPLs at about 400m on close, then two 53pt burns inside 3 seconds.

More to the point Atlas has no twist or structure and even assuming moderate cover on approach the BK, by dint of better range and higher precision setup is going to do about 130 pts by the time the Atlas does 80, half of which is SRM damage. the BKis 50% faster and twists way faster.

I'd happily play a BK to your Atlas on River City in a quirk less environment. Forthe same reason we have the meta we do and the quirks we do.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 07 May 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

In a 1 v 1 with an Atlas? Yeah, absolutel. 3 lpl 4ml, 53 pts alpha? He's still 2 alphas under heatcap. 2 or 3 LPLs at about 400m on close, then two 53pt burns inside 3 seconds.

More to the point Atlas has no twist or structure and even assuming moderate cover on approach the BK, by dint of better range and higher precision setup is going to do about 130 pts by the time the Atlas does 80, half of which is SRM damage. the BKis 50% faster and twists way faster.

I'd happily play a BK to your Atlas on River City in a quirk less environment. Forthe same reason we have the meta we do and the quirks we do.

I think you massively underestimate the Atlas in brawl range.


You also seem to forget the reasons why people didn't play Black Knights.

You forget that it was slower to poke, slower to twist away and had less structure > all things that made its bad mount locations a large factor in its playability needing to expose itself to fire.


We can go around in circles like this endlessly, because you are set on your answer.

I'll just leave this thought here.


On frozen city conquest in MRBC teams that intend to brawl are much more likely to bring a second Atlas than a second Black Knight as their one allowed duplicate choice.

The Atlas takes heaps of punishment, and dishes it out as well.


It's alpha isn't inferior in this situation, it's alpha is a wrecking ball that is more sustainable, with much higher DPS and it straight up wrecks most things quickly. SRMs are usually the order of the day for brawl decks, not super hot LPL/MLAS vomit builds.


People like to exaggerate and cherry pick on the forums, but if you watch competitive matches you will see that even great pilots will not be able to keep absolute precise targeting with LPLs on targets all of the time due to both teams usually moving, twisting, jumping, etc.

Edited by Ultimax, 07 May 2016 - 04:12 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Ultimax, on 07 May 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

I think you massively underestimate the Atlas in brawl range.


You also seem to forget the reasons why people didn't play Black Knights.

You forget that it was slower to poke, slower to twist away and had less structure > all things that made its bad mount locations a large factor in its playability needing to expose itself to fire.


We can go around in circles like this endlessly, because you are set on your answer.

I'll just leave this thought here.


On frozen city conquest in MRBC teams that intend to brawl are much more likely to bring a second Atlas than a second Black Knight as their one allowed duplicate choice.

The Atlas takes heaps of punishment, and dishes it out as well.


It's alpha isn't inferior in this situation, it's alpha is a wrecking ball that is more sustainable, with much higher DPS and it straight up wrecks most things quickly. SRMs are usually the order of the day for brawl decks, not super hot LPL/MLAS vomit builds.


People like to exaggerate and cherry pick on the forums, but if you watch competitive matches you will see that even great pilots will not be able to keep absolute precise targeting with LPLs on targets all of the time due to both teams usually moving, twisting, jumping, etc.

People didn't take the BK because in the quirk game that GHR was better all around and even Thuds had better mounts.

Atlas gets taken during to quirks. Do you remember MRBC pre-quirkening? I do, that's when I got into watching matches. Nobody took an Atlas. Too slow to twist. There were discussions on it you couldn't even spread damage effectively.

Quirkless a BK will burn the ST off an Atlas with 1.5 alphas and is almost 30kph faster, enough to get into cover. So you've got the firepower of a medium left and he just needs cover for 4 seconds to do the same thing for your other ST.

Again, I'm talking about quirk less environment. Back when your Atlas was 25% slower to turn, 40% slower to twist, 35% worse excel/deceleration and had 31 less CT and 21 less st.

Remember those days? The Atlas handled pretty much like a Dire and it was 130pts to kill CT and about 90 to a ST?

I think we've forgotten what the game was like pre-quirkening.

[LordKnightFandragon]

ironnightbird, on 07 May 2016 - 03:37 AM, said:

I guess I was referring to the games in general. Within the universe, the mechs have to deal with all sorts of threats without the possibility of a refit right? Mechs had to fight through urban and natural environments, against small, large, flying enemies, where boating means you can be suddenly out of luck when you had to fight one helicopter while boating SRMs, or against infantry shooting RPGs with a laser boat in an urban environment. Loadout diversity makes sense for a book or even as a thought exercise, but not at all as the games are designed.

Thats for sure.

I used to boat in Mechcommander, but I found that a mixed loadout actually was best. I used to sell everything that was not a ERLL/LL/PPC/ERPPC/Gauss. I have since then realized that mixed builds in that game are actually really good, since guns apparently have minimum ranges where your guys wont fire back. So, I put like 1 flamer per mech, 2 LL or something mid range, and a few long range guns, fitted with a few LRms per mech. Missions are actually insanely easy and everything goes real well when I do that.

MW4, my builds were typically highest damage guns, though I did like to pack in alot of ERML cuz they were 1t 1slot.

I did actually build mixed weapon mechs, ballistics when im to hot, or for good dakka, lasers for weight and space, I actually ran that game on unlimited ammo.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 07 May 2016 - 06:05 PM.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 07 May 2016 - 05:10 PM, said:

Again, I'm talking about quirk less environment. Back when your Atlas was 25% slower to turn, 40% slower to twist, 35% worse excel/deceleration and had 31 less CT and 21 less st.

Remember those days? The Atlas handled pretty much like a Dire and it was 130pts to kill CT and about 90 to a ST?

I think we've forgotten what the game was like pre-quirkening.

The BK was slower as well, and no proper Atlas build ever handled like a Dire.

For starters it runs a 350 engine, huge difference.

Second, when IS mechs had no agility quirks - the skill trees had not been nerfed yet.

So, no, I haven't actually forgotten anything.



One of the biggest changes were the SRM improvements, because with their current velocity and the introduction of the AS7-S, the left torso is more dangerous than the right torso on an Atlas.


That's right, the effectively shorter range, spread weapon is the most dangerous part of an Atlas build.


Not the precision, AC 20, that has faster velocity and lower heat.

Edited by Ultimax, 07 May 2016 - 07:15 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Ultimax, on 07 May 2016 - 07:15 PM, said:

The BK was slower as well, and no proper Atlas build ever handled like a Dire.

For starters it runs a 350 engine, huge difference.

Second, when IS mechs had no agility quirks - the skill trees had not been nerfed yet.

So, no, I haven't actually forgotten anything.



One of the biggest changes were the SRM improvements, because with their current velocity and the introduction of the AS7-S, the left torso is more dangerous than the right torso on an Atlas.


That's right, the effectively shorter range, spread weapon is the most dangerous part of an Atlas build.


Not the precision, AC 20, that has faster velocity and lower heat.

Yep. It's why the best Atlas isn't the DDC now. Dat 4th missile hardpoint. An old school splat cat is a ton of fun on some maps again too.

40% slower torso twist though. You won't be at 90 degrees before his lasers are done.

Again - the BK wasn't terrible just no match for tbrs, GHRs or Thuds, or EBJs for that matter prior to quirks. The Atlas however was trash tier.

40% slower twist. 25% turn, 35% accel/decel. It was a pig and 40% less able to spread damage as now. The outcry for how terrible it was without quirks after the last set of weapon revamps was why it got the buffs it did.

For context put a std 190 instead of a 350 and see how that feels. While top speed is lower that's the twist, turn accel/decel it used to have.

At the moment we're pretty far afield. I wasn't arguing the BK op (I don't think it is, though LPLs could stand a burn increase) but that quirks are not balance and sans quirks the games design still largely favors a deathstar weapon design.

Edited by MischiefSC, 07 May 2016 - 08:05 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Addendum - Google MWO Atlas Bad. Or "useless" or "garbage" or comperable term.

Look for results from late 2014 to Feb 2016 even.

A shocking number of threads on people trying to justify LRM Atlas builds for one. You would think that humans can learn over time wouldn't you? We can be such stubbornly stupid creatures.

Also a bunch about how worthless the Atlas is. Including some comments from some scrub named Gas Guzzler about how it was only slightly better than the Hover jet Highlander and a waste of tonnage for competitive play.

Lots of the same. Can't twist fast enough, can't spread damage, too slow, mounts too low, too big a target, no match for most heavies.

A funny thread from people trying to get the Atlas scaled smaller.

Some good observations on the lack of effective weapon synergy, low mounts, too fragile in the face of the then new laser meta.

Boy. We are a doomy and gloomy bunch.

[Yosharian]

The thing is, you're doing this comparison versus two relatively short range mechs. A laser vomit timby for example has an optimal range of about 450-500m, and can still do good damage up to about 600m.

For that particular mech to be subject to the same alpha restrictions as an Atlas, for example, is unacceptable. GH2.0 MUST take into account range.

[Gyrok]

Yosharian, on 08 May 2016 - 02:26 AM, said:

The thing is, you're doing this comparison versus two relatively short range mechs. A laser vomit timby for example has an optimal range of about 450-500m, and can still do good damage up to about 600m.

For that particular mech to be subject to the same alpha restrictions as an Atlas, for example, is unacceptable. GH2.0 MUST take into account range.

Wrong, actually...the TW at 446m does less damage per 1/10th second than a BK at 446m in spite of the range advantage. That is how powerful duration is. The BK is still winning trades, even to where the TW can do full burn damage, because the BK can do all that damage before the TW is done doing his and twist away.

[Tarl Cabot]

Black Knights only came out for C-bills in Jan 19th, 2016, before that it was released for MC on Dec 15, 2015. You could say it was considered borderline since a number of players waited for it to come out either for MC or C-Bills.

Threads back in Sept 2015 had a few talking that the mech was a joke, primarily due to its low hardpoints. In Nov 2015 BK received huge structural quirk increase, making the mech look better for the Dec 15 2015 purchase and even more for the Jan 2016 purchase. Those structural quirks were scaled down in April 2016 but still better than its original release.

Like any other mechs, those that are considered borderline do not really shine and garner public notice until organized teams begin running all the same mech in a match, usually two waves. And prior to the CW/FW reset, the 260-ton limit certainly did not hurt it. Basically it is a downsized Battlemaster w/lower hardpoints and the speed to move quickly as one, or upsized the load out of the T-bolt 5SS.

The question though, is if the default structural quirks had never been changed, would it be where it is now after the C-Bill release?

Sept 2015 Original BK structural quirks
+8 Additional Structure (LT)
+8 Additional Structure (RT)
+6 Additional Structure (LA)
+6 Additional Structure (RA)
+8 Additional Structure (LL)
+8 Additional Structure (RL)

Nov 2015 Skill Tree reduction.

Nov 2015
Add Struc CT +23
Add Struc L/R Torso +16
Add Struc L/A Arm +12
Add Struc L/R Leg +16

Dec 2015- Released for MC
Jan 2016 - Released for C-Bill

April 2016
Add Struc CT +17
Add Struc L/R Torso +12
Add Struc L/A Arm +9
Add Struc L/R Leg +12

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 08 May 2016 - 07:39 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Ultimax, on 07 May 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

Black Knights weren't used before they got real quirks either.

Do you take those away too? So it overheat's faster, has shorter effective range and has less structure, less agility and relies on XL engine?

Everyone in this game is so caught up in the quirks. I swear, take away the crutches out of from under a good deal of the players in this game and they would be just as bad as the underhive. Spending to much time chasing the meta......

Thats the real reason no one wants any of hte simple CoF/Aimtime mechanics or anything that will take away their metaFLD. No one could stand to see it go...