33 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

https://www.reddit.c...out_of_control/

Conversation about quirks, and the current state of balance as a whole.

Drunk Canuck said:

I have started to think about how quirks have created so much power creep on the IS side of the game. I mean, it isn't so much that the quirks are bad, there are just too many of them. If IS wants more durability, that should be all they get, if they want reduced heat generation, that should be the only choice, same goes for things like beam duration, range and cooldown rates. Rather than having all of these quirks on a Mech, regardless of weight class or tech base, quirks should not be combined, they should be singular. In all of this though, I find it terrible how much I hate playing Clans now, just because IS takes so little effort to kill them by comparison it seems. When I roll IS in CW, it is absurd how easy it is to cripple a Clan Mech, even at a higher tonnage. When I play Clans, I get irritated about how I can't roll damage in a TBR because a ******* Black Knight with more lasers can either blow a side torso off with ease or a cored CT gets finished off because it protrudes so much. When I play IS, I laugh because I can use an 85 ton assault to put 5 LPL into the side torso of a Clan Mech and watch it get cored out instantly, or I can fire 3 LPL and 5 ML on a heavy and almost never shut down from overheating.

It is a bit frustrating how Russ seems to think that the state of Clan Mech's as a whole is acceptable, especially when most don't even see play at all due to all the nerfs to the entire tech base. Sure, keep pushing all those Clan Mech's further away from viability, meanwhile continually ramping up power creep else. Either some of the Clan changes need to be removed (which has hurt the majority of Clan Mech's) or the IS power creep needs a punch in the ****. Even with the so called "balance pass" last patch, where quite frankly IS isn't terribly OP but there are outliers still, but Clans haven't had a single ******* bone thrown their way once. Take a good look at the CW map and tell me if Clans are standing much of a chance anymore.

End rant

Discuss

[Mcgral18]

Balancing factions via quirks: Terrible idea

That means balancing weapons via quirks, which in turn means only a select few robots has good guns, or guns which are a step (or many steps) superior to others.


Quirks should be used to differentiate different mechs, not to balance the game.
They are required for certain things, such as BJ VS Vindi...but when PGI goes and gives the BJ better quirks than that Terribad robot, you have to question WTF is going on

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 07 May 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

Balancing factions via quirks: Terrible idea

That means balancing weapons via quirks, which in turn means only a select few robots has good guns, or guns which are a step (or many steps) superior to others.


Quirks should be used to differentiate different mechs, not to balance the game.
They are required for certain things, such as BJ VS Vindi...but when PGI goes and gives the BJ better quirks than that Terribad robot, you have to question WTF is going on

We agree on the idea that quirks as a main balance metric are indeed a bad thing.

Canuck's post has a point in the OP of that reddit post. The issue is not just how big the quirks are, but also how many there are...

[Rocket2Uranus]

Everything about the game is broken.

Heat, Weapon, Mech weight, Hardpoint and quirk system is just all wonky. And together they just suck.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 07 May 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

We agree on the idea that quirks as a main balance metric are indeed a bad thing.

Canuck's post has a point in the OP of that reddit post. The issue is not just how big the quirks are, but also how many there are...

The number isn't an issue if they aren't too high

Singular, high, quirks can be just as bad. That 50% cooldown, or 2x firepower?
Add 17% from FF and the module, that becomes 67%, or 3x firepower


I still don't know if PGI intended that to happen, or was just a happy accident.

That also ties into how not all quirks are equal: MG range, the better part of useless because of the CoF or PPC range with velocity being low, VS Laser range being hitscan where you can hit from max (or 3x max) without any issue


There are mechs with all of the best quirks: Range, Structure, Heat and Duration, which happen to be very powerful.
Things like the Black Knight, which has HIGH values in ALL of the above. 10% range (maximum), over 10 to every torso (not low, and while not high, on the higher end of current quirks), and 10% less heat (one of the more powerful quirks out there, which BAD mechs often don't get)

Now, the BK was TERRIBLE at launch, and needed SOME quirks...but FOUR varieties of the best quirks in the game? It didn't need that much. It has poor weapon mounts, but has a large amount of them, with a large engine cap.

[Felbombling]

Many of the quirks that are tied to how large/small a Mech currently is will be changed, I hear, with the mass rescale on many Mechs in June. This will be the make or break for the game in my eyes. If they mess up the quirk pass at the time of the rescale, I'll be one disgruntled customer. I am in total agreement with the OP, too. While there are some Clan Mechs that deserve some quirk support, such as the Summoner, some Inner Sphere Mechs are literally buried in unnecessary quirks.

[Rocket2Uranus]

StaggerCheck, on 07 May 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

Many of the quirks that are tied to how large/small a Mech currently is will be changed, I hear, with the mass rescale on many Mechs in June. This will be the make or break for the game in my eyes. If they mess up the quirk pass at the time of the rescale, I'll be one disgruntled customer. I am in total agreement with the OP, too. While there are some Clan Mechs that deserve some quirk support, such as the Summoner, some Inner Sphere Mechs are literally buried in unnecessary quirks.

There are also alot of IS/Clan mechs that are being phased out by the OP mechs.
Pretty sure it would be easy for PGI to figure out what is broken by the rate of purchase/plays a mech gets. But I doubt they would want to put hat much work into figuring out what is broken with the game.

I think at this point, they are just trying ot mass produce mechs for release for early adopter rip off sales lol

[nehebkau]

Mcgral18, on 07 May 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

Balancing factions via quirks: Terrible idea

Yes, and it becomes even more difficult the more mechs with quirks you add.

[Gyrok]

nehebkau, on 07 May 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

Yes, and it becomes even more difficult the more mechs with quirks you add.

Exactly, you are essentially making the mess bigger with each new quirked mech. The headache of trying to keep up with all of that is just not worth it, honestly. Not to mention oversights, and other missed cues because of so many mechs with so many quirks.

[Trauglodyte]

The concept of quirks is a great idea. The problem has always been really two fold:

1- they were used to make IS mechs tougher so that they could stand up to Clan mechs (read: IS and Clan tech isn't balanced so quirks do the balancing)

2- there were created to enhance weapons and other features for variants among the different chassis but they were created to be so generic so that people could still individually customize their mechs (read: seeing MGs on a Victor is super cool!) but that only lead to the min/max tryhard community and their groupies picking the best variant to bastardize by equipping weapons on that chassis for which it wasn't designed but took the most advantage of said awful quirks

So, instead of, say, adding quirks to the Enforcer that centered around only the autocannon and, for that specific autocannon only, they put in a bunch of generic quirks so that your standard builds are all Large Lasers or all Medium Pulse Lasers. They didn't do anything to make any of the individual mechs even more special. They just made individual mechs and specific variants more b;and but overly desired because of mediocre concept development.

Also, as a final blast against PGI for their failings on this, that they can't code the game so that weapon quirks are location specific is pretty weak. Now, I'm no coder and I don't have my own game that I've developed. BUT, I would think that in 2016 there is a way to actually do this. I mean, if they can create omni-pods with specific quirks attached to them, why can't IS mechs have dark age "pods" that can't be traded in or out but still have quirks attached to them? Why can't the location quirks on IS mechs be freaking attached to the Shoulder/Hip Actuators? Seriously, I hate whenever I see a freaking Warhammer running around with PPCs in the torsos OR not having a single PPC on it.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 08 May 2016 - 05:17 PM.

[Xocoyol Zaraoul]

Trauglodyte, on 08 May 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

Seriously, I hate whenever I see a freaking Warhammer running around with PPCs in the torsos OR not having a single PPC on it.

WHM-5L and WHM-6R (C) say hello.

[Deathlike]

Maybe someday @ PGI, someone will have a clue.

That day isn't soon™.

[Lord0fHats]

Structure quirks are so common IS side, I wonder if it would be simpler to just boost the base structure of IS mechs. Those quirks have definitely been a net book for IS v Clan balance (though some mechs obviously go a bit overboard), but it would help clean up long lists of quirks and unclutter the game to just make higher structure inherent.

[Ace Selin]

Lord0fHats, on 08 May 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

Structure quirks are so common IS side, I wonder if it would be simpler to just boost the base structure of IS mechs. Those quirks have definitely been a net book for IS v Clan balance (though some mechs obviously go a bit overboard), but it would help clean up long lists of quirks and unclutter the game to just make higher structure inherent.

Make IS XL = Clan XL and structure quirks could go.

[Cranial Enigma]

Ace Selin, on 08 May 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

Make IS XL = Clan XL and structure quirks could go.

I would rather have light fusion engines come into play and have IS get tech 2 so they can match Clans, this way you can have a choice between durability, or more tonnage at a risk to get better firepower. That way it would be an easier way to phase out quirks because both Clan and IS would be on the same tech level.

As it stands now, the game will never be balanced as long as we have quirks as the main balancing force and we keep IS on a tech level below Clans.

[Lord0fHats]

Ace Selin, on 08 May 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

Make IS XL = Clan XL and structure quirks could go.

I rather like them though, and at this point losing a side torso on a Clan mech is no small thing. And frankly, having the effective health of an 90 ton assault on a 75 ton heavy is probably worth more than the Clan XL combined with lower fire duration and better heat management. I like the dynamic of the Clans being fast glass cannons, while the IS is slower but sturdier. The only real disparity I see at the moment is a select number of mechs that have both strong structure and strong offensive quirks.

Edited by Lord0fHats, 08 May 2016 - 06:14 PM.

[Sjorpha]

Cranial Enigma, on 08 May 2016 - 06:02 PM, said:

I would rather have light fusion engines come into play and have IS get tech 2 so they can match Clans, this way you can have a choice between durability, or more tonnage at a risk to get better firepower. That way it would be an easier way to phase out quirks because both Clan and IS would be on the same tech level.

As it stands now, the game will never be balanced as long as we have quirks as the main balancing force and we keep IS on a tech level below Clans.

Light fusion engines don't fully match clan XL though, clan XL takes the advantages of LFG and IS XL and combines them into one.

It's mostly the same with the rest of IS tech 2. In other words, you'll always have to bridge the tech gap between IS and Clan somehow.

It can either be done by resource management, if you have an economic simulation that allows a choice between cheap and strong. Unfortunately the cbill economy in MWO is separate from actual gameplay so this doesn't work.

You can balance by numbers, with more units on one side, but unfortunately this is extremely hard to do in games where each unit is a separate player.

We're left with the need to balance mechs ton for ton, not saying PGI has done this very elegantly, but I understand why they feel the need to try. In any case advancing the timeline is not the easy fix that some people think it is.

[Lord0fHats]

Of course, continuing the theme with structure, 10% laser range is so common, why not just make it innate at this point and boost IS weapon ranges by 10%? Then it won't just be the lucky few who can benefit from what seems to be a base aspect of balance between IS and Clan.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

If a shjtload of IS mechs have E ranger quirks of at least 10% (which about 2/3 of the IS mechs do as found here), then it's time to adjust the range and the remove the majority of range quirks. And no duration quirks except in a few case (LCT-1V, RVN-4x, CPLT-C4). Heat gen is also an unnecessary quirk in most instances.

Push the ranges to:
-iSL: 135 to 180m, heat from 2 to 1.
-iML: 270 to 300m, heat from 4 to 3, duration up from 0.9 to 1.0
-iLL: 450 to 500m
-iERLL: 675 to 700m, duration down from 1.25 to 1.15, heat up from 8 to 8.5
-iSPL: 110 to 145m
-iMPL: 220 to 270m, duration up from 0.60 to 0.70
-iLPL: 360 to 400m, duration up from 0.67 to 0.80, heat up from 7 to 8

Unfnck the small and medium class Clan lasers with that 1.5x range nerf. adjust the cERLL duration down to 1.25 and the cERML duration down to 1.05.

The let it play out a few weeks.

Quirks just creates a lot of "the haves and the have nots" far worse than this game has ever seen.

[Gyrok]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 08 May 2016 - 06:30 PM, said:

If a shjtload of IS mechs have E ranger quirks of at least 10% (which about 2/3 of the IS mechs do as found here), then it's time to adjust the range and the remove the majority of range quirks. And no duration quirks except in a few case (LCT-1V, RVN-4x, CPLT-C4). Heat gen is also an unnecessary quirk in most instances.

Push the ranges to:
-iSL: 135 to 180m, heat from 2 to 1.
-iML: 270 to 300m, heat from 4 to 3, duration up from 0.9 to 1.0
-iLL: 450 to 500m
-iERLL: 675 to 700m, duration down from 1.25 to 1.15, heat up from 8 to 8.5
-iSPL: 110 to 145m
-iMPL: 220 to 270m, duration up from 0.60 to 0.70
-iLPL: 360 to 400m, duration up from 0.67 to 0.80, heat up from 7 to 8

Unfnck the small and medium class Clan lasers with that 1.5x range nerf. adjust the cERLL duration down to 1.25 and the cERML duration down to 1.05.

The let it play out a few weeks.

Quirks just creates a lot of "the haves and the have nots" far worse than this game has ever seen.

Can I get a witness from the congregation?!

(R.I.P. Stuart Scott - my favorite SportsCenter anchor ever...)