321 replies to this topic

[oldradagast]

Johnny Z, on 08 May 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

More on topic TTK is fine. The high alphas are not. Especially when a guy can strip all his armor then be invulnerable anyway and have a crazy high alpha.

Ummm... what?

TTK is low because of crazy alphas, and nobody who wants to live will strip armor away from anything other than weaponless arms to have a crazy high alpha... and that doesn't make him invulnerable - it makes him a glass cannon.

[MauttyKoray]

smokefield, on 08 May 2016 - 03:20 AM, said:

I keep seeing people complaining about ttk beeing too short and demanding to be increased by all sorts of mechanics. And I fear that 90% of them have no idea of what they are talking about.

TTK is in a pretty good spot now. even too long in some cases.

this is an online shooting game. it is not TT. You can start a new game at any moment. you can pick a new mech whenever you want. no one wants a drop to take several hours to complete.

if you dont think TTK is fine...do some lobby games 1v1. same weight class, similat mechs. see how long it takes a mech to be killed.

we dont need a longer ttk, we need people to learn to play a mech. we need a better tutorial, we need a better training ground, and people need to take those courses and learn.

For those who die too fast - TTK can be doubled if you learn to twist well...tripled if you learn to twist and spread the damage.

How low can you go ? have you played this game ? you will see that ttk its pretty fine where it is. stop asking for artificial mechanics to increase it.

The issue is that some mechs carry enough of an armament where getting hit in a fully armored side torso can completely destroy it (usually happens to lights/mediums, sometimes heavies) or damage it enough where it will come off slightly after.

The biggest imbalance is between the different mechs though. Some can carry a large amount of single strike firepower (or sustained even) while other have a fraction of that. The way TT was created was never meant to have all weapons fired at a single time or repeatedly at the cooldown speeds we have (hence the ridiculously multiplied armor and structure we have) and it creates a power creep among mech chassis that imbalances the game at a core level.

You can say that mechs just need to be played differently, and while true, doesn't fix the problem of a single trade having the potential to 'tickle' one mech while ripping off half of the other one. When only a few of these mechs show up in a game its not really a problem, but when an entire team is composed of these mechs its the stuff of nightmares. Even a single lance of these mechs coordinated is insane to see in combat. It no longer is a question of a pilot's skill or team coordination, 4 Jenners have enough speed and firepower to neutralize a mech in one volley together, essentially creating a sub-minute fight to annihilate another team while still having 8 more mechs creating another flank to fight on while the jenners run amok.

Its not so much that TTK needs to be increased (but honestly it does a bit) but that accessible firepower over time needs to be more evenly distributed across all mechs. Firing 8 weapons at once is possible for some mechs, others don't even have 8 hardpoints. If concurrently fired weaponry is limited in some way (power draw mechanic?) it would accomplish multiple objectives including reducing big alphas, creating another tactical choice (which weapon to fire when instead of 1 button alpha mechs), and a better promotion of multi-ranged builds that include weaponry for multiple situations.

[Khobai]

Quote

if you dont think TTK is fine...do some lobby games 1v1. same weight class, similat mechs. see how long it takes a mech to be killed.

TTK isnt too short in 1v1 though

Its too short in 12v12

Its called focus fire. deathballing/focus fire is what makes TTK pathetic.

so yeah youre wrong. even PGI admits theres a problem. And their tournament was made 8v8 specifically to address the TTK issues present in 12v12.

Edited by Khobai, 08 May 2016 - 08:08 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Sigh ... all the same clueless comments again.

1v1 fight is the only way to determine TTK. Because when you measure TTK in a situation of 1 mech vs 12 mechs firing line this is simply ret@rded. In TT, or MW3/4 it would be an instant death all the same when you have 12 mechs firing at 1. If you are dumb enough to run alone into several enemy mechs you deserve to die that instant. End of story.

Maps are way too small and that creates a great concentration of firepower in every battle. Even big maps like Alpine, new Forest Colony etc. do not see any engagements happening anywhere but the small areas near the middle. There is no incentive at all to split forces, no reasons to actually scout, capture and hold cap points etc., thus the murderball strategy is in nearly all cases a winning strategy. CW maps also have idiotic design with 2-3 chokepoints you have to move through, which again forces a great concentration of forces on both ends of those.

We've talked about instant automatic convergence that allows huge alphas into the same component a million times, but PGI will never stray away from it because they are 1) too dumb to implement a proper mechanics in the first place 2) their ****** servers won't be able to cope with additional load of calculating convergence.

In TT one gauss rifle or one CERPPC can instantly kill any mech via a headshot. I'm sure people bringing TT into this discussion will surely like that to be the case in MWO as well, eh?

[Lord0fHats]

Map size isn't the issue. Maps are big enough given the weapon ranges. The big reason you see death balls rolling around is because "kill other team" is the only real objective. Conquest? Kill the other team. Domination? Kill the other team. Assault? Kill the other team. CW? You know where I'm going with this.

Go ahead. Make the maps bigger if it'll make you feel better. Won't stop teams from roaming in a blob because there's very little reason not to. Having people break off to do other things right now is more of a detriment than an aid. Real objective game play could break up teams, but it's going to take more work than just throwing in a new game mode. The maps aren't well designed in general, and I'm not sure they can support dynamic objective game play.

[Khobai]

yep you need respawns and an objective other than "kill the other team" in order to get rid of deathballing and resolve the low TTK issue once and for all.

Quote

1v1 fight is the only way to determine TTK. Because when you measure TTK in a situation of 1 mech vs 12 mechs firing line this is simply ret@rded. In TT, or MW3/4 it would be an instant death all the same when you have 12 mechs firing at 1.

Nope youre wrong. 1v1 is not the only way to determine TTK. Because games arnt 1v1. Theyre 12v12. And in 12v12 you have focus fire which significantly lowers TTK.

And MW3/MW4 didnt have 12v12 FOR A REASON. Because TTK wouldbe been too low. So no those games didnt have instant death like MWO because they had the common sense to avoid it in the first place. derp.

MW3/MW4 were 4v4. Why? Because thats what works best. Even in MWO, the 4v4 matches are far more enjoyable than 12v12.

Edited by Khobai, 08 May 2016 - 08:21 AM.

[Barkem Squirrel]

If you die after loosing both arms you are doing it right.

Unless you have a mech with all weapons in the arms. Then it is to be standing next to someone and be the 2nd or third priority target. Like in an Urbanmech with an AC 5 and ML's standing next to a direwolf and Atlas.

Now if you turn a corner and find the entire enemy team, you might have til your lasers stop burning to live.

Edited by Barkem Squirrel, 08 May 2016 - 08:19 AM.

[Lily from animove]

sure, now paly vs people with aim.

[Jman5]

smokefield, on 08 May 2016 - 03:20 AM, said:

For those who die too fast - TTK can be doubled if you learn to twist well...tripled if you learn to twist and spread the damage.

How low can you go ? have you played this game ? you will see that ttk its pretty fine where it is. stop asking for artificial mechanics to increase it.

Your screenshot betrays your argument. On the one hand, you say TTK is fine, but this match you played was almost completely settled in just 2:38. You went from spawning, to searching for the enemy, to fightings, to killing 3 mechs and you almost dying all in 2:38. This was also on a very hot map which has the side effect of lowering damage output.

If that wasn't all, you're piloting a Hunchback 4SP. It is the beefiest medium in the game. You will not find one with better TTK than that mech there. Yet, you still nearly got obliterated in 2:38.

[Khobai]

Quote

TTK can be doubled if you learn to twist well...tripled if you learn to twist and spread the damage.

um no.

because smart players will just leg you.

that is why legging is a thing because you cant torso twist to prevent yourself from being legged.

legging is especially common in 4v4 too because lights/medium are super easy to leg. And even if you dont destroy the mech, if its legged, its still effectively out of the fight.

Edited by Khobai, 08 May 2016 - 08:50 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Khobai, on 08 May 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

TTK isnt too short in 1v1 though

Yes it is. In Mechwarrior 2 it could take minutes to defeat your opponent in a duel if you were both competent. This is after being sighted and closing to fight.

TTK is too damn low in MWO. It wasn't so bad in closed beta but... in closed beta... we didn't have super alphas.

[Lord0fHats]

Khobai, on 08 May 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

um no.

because s,art players will just leg you.

that is why legging is a thing because you cant torso twist to prevent yourself from being legged.

That's what leg shielding is for

[PhoenixFire55]

Lord0fHats, on 08 May 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

Map size isn't the issue. Maps are big enough given the weapon ranges. The big reason you see death balls rolling around is because "kill other team" is the only real objective. Conquest? Kill the other team. Domination? Kill the other team. Assault? Kill the other team. CW? You know where I'm going with this.

Go ahead. Make the maps bigger if it'll make you feel better. Won't stop teams from roaming in a blob because there's very little reason not to. Having people break off to do other things right now is more of a detriment than an aid. Real objective game play could break up teams, but it's going to take more work than just throwing in a new game mode. The maps aren't well designed in general, and I'm not sure they can support dynamic objective game play.

Just because reading isn't your strong suit ...

PhoenixFire55, on 08 May 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

There is no incentive at all to split forces, no reasons to actually scout, capture and hold cap points etc.

[cazidin]

Khobai, on 08 May 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

um no.

because smart players will just leg you.

that is why legging is a thing because you cant torso twist to prevent yourself from being legged.

legging is especially common in 4v4 too because lights/medium are super easy to leg. And even if you dont destroy the mech, if its legged, its still effectively out of the fight.

There's a risk to legging a heavy or assault mech. If you employ that tactic against an intelligent opponent then they'll likely stop twisting and focus fire you more, if reasonable depending on their loadout. One can also counter legging by making good use of cover when available.

Edited by cazidin, 08 May 2016 - 09:07 AM.

[Lord0fHats]

In case reading isn't your strong suit, I was disagreeing with the notion that making maps bigger will help anything. Take the rest as agreement on additional points

[Alan Davion]

PhoenixFire55, on 08 May 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

Sigh ... all the same clueless comments again.

1v1 fight is the only way to determine TTK. Because when you measure TTK in a situation of 1 mech vs 12 mechs firing line this is simply ret@rded. In TT, or MW3/4 it would be an instant death all the same when you have 12 mechs firing at 1. If you are dumb enough to run alone into several enemy mechs you deserve to die that instant. End of story.

Maps are way too small and that creates a great concentration of firepower in every battle. Even big maps like Alpine, new Forest Colony etc. do not see any engagements happening anywhere but the small areas near the middle. There is no incentive at all to split forces, no reasons to actually scout, capture and hold cap points etc., thus the murderball strategy is in nearly all cases a winning strategy. CW maps also have idiotic design with 2-3 chokepoints you have to move through, which again forces a great concentration of forces on both ends of those.

We've talked about instant automatic convergence that allows huge alphas into the same component a million times, but PGI will never stray away from it because they are 1) too dumb to implement a proper mechanics in the first place 2) their ****** servers won't be able to cope with additional load of calculating convergence.

In TT one gauss rifle or one CERPPC can instantly kill any mech via a headshot. I'm sure people bringing TT into this discussion will surely like that to be the case in MWO as well, eh?

This right here is what I take the most issue with.

There's a reason PGI made the "head" hitbox so ridiculously small. Because with FPS aiming mechanics it would be headshot-after-headshot ad nauseum. There's a reason why armor/structure values what they were in TT to begin with, and why PGI had to subsequently double them a few years back.

Did you watch the CGL vs HBS BT game a while back? Jordan Weissman's Atlas took a through-armor-crit right to the bloody face in like the second round.

You have to be extremely lucky with your dice rolls to get a headshot.

There is no element of luck in MWO currently, the exception being the occasional dual-guass or arty/air strike headshot, but even those are few and far between so as to almost be considered flukes.

All MWO is right now is load up your mech with the best combination of lasers/ac/gauss depending on the mech to avoid ghost heat, and just blast away like you're playing CoD until the enemy is dead.

F***ING.

BORING.

That's what MWO is right now.

Even PGI finally acknowledges that TTK is way too low right now due to insane, pinpoint alphas and DPS builds after the alpha. But you can thank the "Twitch Shooter E-Sport L33T $KILL$ Meta Humper" sub group for that. Until PGI finally curb stomps the alpha-strike mentality, MWO will continue down that road.

And it shouldn't have started down that road to begin with.

[LordKnightFandragon]

smokefield, on 08 May 2016 - 03:20 AM, said:

if you dont think TTK is fine...do some lobby games 1v1. same weight class, similat mechs. see how long it takes a mech to be killed.

Lol, I have, back when I grouped up with Gyrok's clan, they had us doing "trials" against each other. It took just a matter of seconds to tear the mechs apart. Each battle took maybe 30 seconds, maybe a minute, but thats probably stretching it. The longest was probably my dad's duel since he wasnt a very good shot. I faced off against a Warhawk in my Warhawk, I stated firing, he dropped me, once his UACs stopped jamming, in a matter of seconds.

I have Faction war'd before, I have had every section of my mech stripped off, but it took only a matter of seconds to start ripping the mech to bits.

Just a few bursts tears mechs to pieces.

MW3 and even MW4 is alot more fun to play. Mechcommander is even more so.

[PhoenixFire55]

Khobai, on 08 May 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

Nope youre wrong. 1v1 is not the only way to determine TTK. Because games arnt 1v1. Theyre 12v12. And in 12v12 you have focus fire which significantly lowers TTK.

Focus fire has nothing to do with TTK. Once again, if you are dumb enough to go alone vs several enemy mechs your TTK should be 5 seconds tops. Plus PUGs don't focus fire anyway, the only way they can do it is when you are the only mech they can shoot. And in competitive matches between solid teams TTK is far far higher unless teams go with full brawl decks.

[Alan Davion]

You really can't see the forest for the trees, can you Phoenix.

[BattleBunny]

1 vs 1 the time to kill is spot on.

Anything else is just good teamwork. teamwork OP. Pls dont nerf though. I like teamwork.