321 replies to this topic

[JigglyMoobs]

The focus on TTK is a red herring. The focus on the effectiveness of torso twisting is a red herring within a red herring.

As some others have said, the reason why matches are over so quickly is that there are not viable objectives other than killing the enemy team in this game. In order to solve this maps need to be bigger and objectives need to be designed to make teams utilize large geographic areas on the map. If objectives and map design make deathballing ineffective, then you will see TTK go down.

Regarding torso twisting vs legging, that's really missing the boat on survivability. 90% of survivability in this game is positioning, maneuver, awareness and decision making. TTK goes way down if you combine all four.

You have to position well, you have to be dynamic in moving from good position to good position, you have to be aware of where people are, both teams, on the map. Then you have to put it all together by making decisions that ANTICIPATE moves of the other team.

You spot lights moving sort of towards your Dire from 800m out? The time to move is NOW not 20 sec later when they are 400 m away and you are SOL.

You see enemy team looking like it's coming over the ridge line in front of you in about 20 seconds? The time to backup to the next set of hills is NOW not 10 sec later when it's too late.

You get into the low ground on tourmaline and it looks like the enemy team is getting ready to bottle you in? The time to get agitated and aggressive in your breakout is NOW not when you are down 3 mechs.

How are they going to blast your leg if your legs are behind a hill?

How are they going to 12 v 1 you if you are not where they expect you to be?

How are they taking you down quickly if you are behind terrain?

How is their twitch aim skills going to save them if you are in the superior overlook spot?

If you want a longer more meaningful game, get pgi to make it have more meaningful objectives. Because beating each other around with nerfed weapons that do jack all for 20min is going to be pretty damn boring too.

If you want to extend TTK for yourself, don't point to a sjr/emp/228 match and say see, TTK too short. You're not playing a full 12man comp team 99% of the time. Look to your own decisions and tactics.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 08 May 2016 - 12:20 PM.

[smokefield]

good post jigg.

Quote

Because beating each other around with nerfed weapons that do jack all for 20min is going to be pretty damn boring too.

hihihi

[LordNothing]

ttk is fine for ballistics, srms (even considering jenner iics and oxides, which are very easy to kill imho), lrms. but when i loose an entire ct in an assault mech to a laser blast despite good twisting, you have to think that maybe something is wrong. especially if your ping is over 100, by the time you know you are being shot, its over, lasers might as well be ppfld weapons at that point. that damn laser fadeout doesnt help any, neither does the horrible sound code that doesn't prioritize sound channels, so that important stuff like armor melting doesn't come through, yet betty's ammo warning does.

Edited by LordNothing, 08 May 2016 - 12:35 PM.

[Spleenslitta]

If TTK became longer due to some mechanic that stopped constant use of high damage alphas and such from being possible MWO would demand more skill to play.
Right now at one push of a button you hit the same spot....that demands no skill.

Hitting the target accuratly with 3-5 completly different weapon systems would demand far more of us. I've said my piece.

[JigglyMoobs]

LordNothing, on 08 May 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

ttk is fine for ballistics, srms (even considering jenner iics and oxides, which are very easy to kill imho), lrms. but when i loose an entire ct in an assault mech to a laser blast despite good twisting, you have to think that maybe something is wrong. especially if your ping is over 100, by the time you know you are being shot, its over. that damn laser fadeout doesnt help any, neither does the horrible sound code that doesn't prioritize sound channels, so that important stuff like armor melting doesnt come throuhg, yet betty's ammo warning does.

I agree the quirked short laser balsts from is mechs is a problem because they are so short that due to latency some victims don't even see the shot until AFTER they've registered almost 100% of the damage server side. There's no way to react to it and their torso just vaporizes without sometimes even seeing the laser blast.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 08 May 2016 - 12:38 PM.

[Thunder Child]

JigglyMoobs, on 08 May 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

I agree the quirked short laser balsts from is mechs is a problem because they are so short that due to latency some victims don't even see the shot until AFTER they've registered almost 100% of the damage server side. There's no way to react to it and their torso just vaporizes without sometimes even seeing the laser blast.

As a New Zealand player, this happens to me all the time. Even if I preemptively Torso-Twist as soon as I see someone it can sometimes be too late, as some of the Quirked Pulse builds may as well be FLD.

Personally, I think individual TTK is, while not fine, not as bad as a typical twitch shooter. What would help improve TTK (imho), without implementing a whole slew of new mechanics, would be to have multiple simultaneous objectives. If a set number are completed uncontested (say, 2/4, or 3/5, etc) then the team that completes them automatically wins, no matter how L33t the Deathballs skillz are.

Ideally, this would best be implemented after we have Solaris, so that the TDM players can just Ball each other in Arena Matchs, while those of us that want longer, more strategic, matches, could play on Alpine+ sized maps, where lances need to split up to achieve the multiple objectives, and scouts are needed to track enemy movement and capture forward positions.
Ideally, this is what FW SHOULD have been, rather than a MOBA-esque Tower Defense game.

[Aresye]

Lykaon, on 08 May 2016 - 04:23 AM, said:

P.S. whenever I run across a pilot that actually knows how to torso twist I just take the legs off you can not twist those. How long would you last then? one third as long ? half? maybe a quarter if the leg armor is stripped? Many mechs also have armor points located below the twist point of the pelvis that does not rotate with the torso yet counts as front torso armor. Twist all you like it won't matter.

A good pilot will stand completely still, and position their legs in such a way that their already "removed" leg overlaps and protects the other remaining leg.

If you try to reposition to get a shot on the other leg, the good pilot will turn their mech in order to keep both legs lined up with your mech, in which case all damage you do to the destroyed leg will transfer to the side torso above it.

They'll also be shooting at you this entire time with all their weapons, so by the time you finally manage to hit their other leg you'll likely have taken a lot of damage yourself.

[R5D4]

Totally fine...nothing wrong here

https://www.reddit.c..._its_thing_gif/

[C E Dwyer]

People think 1v1 is slow *blinks* once engaged it rarely takes more than two minutes, it's the fluffing around and jockying for position before committing to an attack that takes ages.

[Bishop Steiner]

smokefield, on 08 May 2016 - 03:20 AM, said:

I keep seeing people complaining about ttk beeing too short and demanding to be increased by all sorts of mechanics. And I fear that 90% of them have no idea of what they are talking about.

TTK is in a pretty good spot now. even too long in some cases.

this is an online shooting game. it is not TT. You can start a new game at any moment. you can pick a new mech whenever you want. no one wants a drop to take several hours to complete.

if you dont think TTK is fine...do some lobby games 1v1. same weight class, similat mechs. see how long it takes a mech to be killed.

we dont need a longer ttk, we need people to learn to play a mech. we need a better tutorial, we need a better training ground, and people need to take those courses and learn.

For those who die too fast - TTK can be doubled if you learn to twist well...tripled if you learn to twist and spread the damage.

How low can you go ? have you played this game ? you will see that ttk its pretty fine where it is. stop asking for artificial mechanics to increase it.

Yes, 1v1 TTK is fine.

Shame this game is almost never 1v1.

In other news, F-35 JSFs never lose to older generation fighters if you never take them out of the hanger.

[Alan Davion]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 May 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

Yes, 1v1 TTK is fine.

Shame this game is almost never 1v1.

In other news, F-35 JSFs never lose to older generation fighters if you never take them out of the hanger.

Well played Bishop.

[JigglyMoobs]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 May 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

Yes, 1v1 TTK is fine.

Shame this game is almost never 1v1.

In other news, F-35 JSFs never lose to older generation fighters if you never take them out of the hanger.

Dies rapidly in game due to poor awareness, decision making and tactics, then criticises game for not letting him survive by simply moving the mouse left to right repeatedly.

Have no understanding the importance of information, tactics and decision making in aerial combat yet thinks a new plane that reigns supreme in all of the above will lose simply because it performs the aerial version of torso twisting a little slower than an older plane in some specific situations.

Pattern of fail established and consistent. Well done sir.

[Nightmare1]

smokefield, on 08 May 2016 - 03:20 AM, said:

I keep seeing people complaining about ttk beeing too short and demanding to be increased by all sorts of mechanics. And I fear that 90% of them have no idea of what they are talking about.

TTK is in a pretty good spot now. even too long in some cases.

this is an online shooting game. it is not TT. You can start a new game at any moment. you can pick a new mech whenever you want. no one wants a drop to take several hours to complete.

if you dont think TTK is fine...do some lobby games 1v1. same weight class, similat mechs. see how long it takes a mech to be killed.

we dont need a longer ttk, we need people to learn to play a mech. we need a better tutorial, we need a better training ground, and people need to take those courses and learn.

For those who die too fast - TTK can be doubled if you learn to twist well...tripled if you learn to twist and spread the damage.

How low can you go ? have you played this game ? you will see that ttk its pretty fine where it is. stop asking for artificial mechanics to increase it.

Agreed, TTK in 1v1 is actually excellent. It's when you have focus firing that it's problematic. There's really nothing PGI can do about focus firing unless they somehow nerf Mechs to only be able to fire at the same target if there are less then three already shooting it, lol.

Vids of 1v1 combat and proof that TTK is fine:
https://www.youtube....NFQvULs5YhL28Cw

That's a video playlist of my Unit's annual Rum-Off elimination event. Enclosed are vids for Lights, Heavies, and Assaults. Unfortunately, I was not present for Mediums.

Basically, it's 16 videos showing that TTK is in a good spot. The best thing for people to do, who find TTK to be too short, is to stop bum-rushing the entire enemy team on their own.

Skip to 3:50 for the fight:



Jump to 3:48 for the fight:



Essentially, TTK in 1v1 (1v1 should be our standard) is just fine.

Now, I see some people commenting that destroying both legs is the way to get around torso twisting. That's only true if you're combating an incompetent pilot. A good pilot knows that damage dealt to a destroyed leg transfers at half-damage to the adjoining torso. As soon as that pilot is legged, he will rotate in place, keeping the destroyed leg facing towards his enemy to shield his good leg. At that point, an enemy pilot fixated on legs will simply be dealing 1/2 damage to his would-be victim's torso.

Attacking a side torso is much more effective than legging because it either kills your enemy out-right (XL) or it eliminates a major portion of his weaponry. The only time you should worry about legging an enemy is if he has a significant speed advantage over you. Otherwise, he'll just smash you apart while you try to snipe his good leg from behind his destroyed shield leg.

Also, regarding 2v1, that doesn't put your TTK through the floor at all. 2v1 TTK is actually pretty good too.
Most of this fight was 1v2 until the very end:



Last man standing against a bunch of Mechs. Used terrain to hold them off and score two kills:



If you know what you're doing, TTK isn't an issue. The problem is pilot training; not necessarily game mechanics.

[YourSaviorLegion]

BattleBunny, on 08 May 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

1 vs 1 the time to kill is spot on.

Anything else is just good teamwork. teamwork OP. Pls dont nerf though. I like teamwork.

^THIS!

[Nightmare1]

JigglyMoobs, on 08 May 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

The focus on TTK is a red herring. The focus on the effectiveness of torso twisting is a red herring within a red herring.

As some others have said, the reason why matches are over so quickly is that there are not viable objectives other than killing the enemy team in this game. In order to solve this maps need to be bigger and objectives need to be designed to make teams utilize large geographic areas on the map. If objectives and map design make deathballing ineffective, then you will see TTK go down.

Regarding torso twisting vs legging, that's really missing the boat on survivability. 90% of survivability in this game is positioning, maneuver, awareness and decision making. TTK goes way down if you combine all four.

You have to position well, you have to be dynamic in moving from good position to good position, you have to be aware of where people are, both teams, on the map. Then you have to put it all together by making decisions that ANTICIPATE moves of the other team.

You spot lights moving sort of towards your Dire from 800m out? The time to move is NOW not 20 sec later when they are 400 m away and you are SOL.

You see enemy team looking like it's coming over the ridge line in front of you in about 20 seconds? The time to backup to the next set of hills is NOW not 10 sec later when it's too late.

You get into the low ground on tourmaline and it looks like the enemy team is getting ready to bottle you in? The time to get agitated and aggressive in your breakout is NOW not when you are down 3 mechs.

How are they going to blast your leg if your legs are behind a hill?

How are they going to 12 v 1 you if you are not where they expect you to be?

How are they taking you down quickly if you are behind terrain?

How is their twitch aim skills going to save them if you are in the superior overlook spot?

If you want a longer more meaningful game, get pgi to make it have more meaningful objectives. Because beating each other around with nerfed weapons that do jack all for 20min is going to be pretty damn boring too.

If you want to extend TTK for yourself, don't point to a sjr/emp/228 match and say see, TTK too short. You're not playing a full 12man comp team 99% of the time. Look to your own decisions and tactics.

Amen, preach it brother!

[MadcatX]

Speaking strictly from the QP solo or teams composed of small groups in the QP group queue, I'd say TTK is a bit low.

However I do not believe it to be the cause of simply players not knowing how to properly play. TTK lowered when the deathball leveled up from being 8 people to 12 people. More enemy mechs being able to bring their guns to bear onto a single target will lead to shorter TTK.

PGI had hoped that with the introduction of larger maps, different game modes and objectives would maybe split up the deathball a little bit but it really hasn't. With the exception of 1 or 2 maps, most fights take place in just a couple areas on the map.

Edited by MadcatX, 08 May 2016 - 03:42 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 May 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

The EmP vs SJR MRBC match that was on Thursday is a better example than some "top teams" in CW. Go watch it.

Assuming that I watched the games you are referring to, the first game took 2 1/2 minutes from the time the first shot was fired to the final kill. It was mostly a brawl with some high snipers. The second game took 7 minutes from the time the first shot was fired to the final kill. It was a game of peek a boo with mostly long range sniping. I will give the last SJR player props for extending the match as long as he did with some nice movement with coaching from his team. These were 8v8 games which most of the TTK OK crowd say takes longer due to less focus fire. So do you think that 7 minutes is a long game? I do not think it is. Maybe it is if you are the first one dead and have to spectate the whole thing. I think a 10 minute or more game should be the normal average length with two quality teams playing.

Now maybe I watched the wrong SJR vs EmP match. If that is the case then send me a link and I will be happy to watch more but right now I am still convinced the TTK is too low.

Edited by Rampage, 08 May 2016 - 04:29 PM.

[Aresye]

Rampage, on 08 May 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

Now maybe I watched the wrong SJR vs EmP match. If that is the case then send me a link and I will be happy to watch more but right now I am still convinced the TTK is too low.

Yes, TTK is often low when you have 6-8 mechs, piloted by some of the best players in the game, focusing targets one at a time. Who knew?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

YourSaviorLegion, on 08 May 2016 - 03:22 AM, said:

OH NO TORSO TWISTING IS TOO OP!

they already nerfed this lol

[Sjorpha]

It's funny when people refer to TT as an argument for longer TTK. TTK and game length is typically lower in TT than in MWO.

An average TT game of the scale and map type we see in MWO would last maybe 10-30 turns or so. 1 turn is 10 seconds, so that's about 2-5 minutes. Mechs can die extremely fast in TT, and in a lot more random and silly ways.

Our matches are 5-15 minutes, in other words three times longer.