321 replies to this topic

[Cy Mitchell]

Aresye, on 08 May 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

Yes, TTK is often low when you have 6-8 mechs, piloted by some of the best players in the game, focusing targets one at a time. Who knew?

Hey, I am just trying to give you guys the benefit of the doubt. You told me to watch the matches. I assume that was to prove a point you all were trying to make. I watched them and all it proved to me was that TTK is too low and now you are saying that is the point? I think you guys will say anything to try to dissuade anyone else from having an opinion other than yours.

I have played the game. I have watched guys who are a heck of a lot better than me play the game. My opinion is that TTK is too short because this is a Mech combat game not just a FPS. It needs to find its niche and be true to it. There are plenty of FPS games with fast TTK and respawn that people can play. A new CoD is right around the corner. MWO cannot compete with that. They need to take the things that make Mechwarrior unique and run with it.

Fix the Alpha strike issue and that will go along way in fixing the TTK issue. PGI knows they have a problem. Lets see what they do about it. Thanks for sharing your opinions and considering mine.

[Mavairo]

TTK is too low in this game.
I'm sorry but if you think 5 second life spans under fire is OK under focus fire, you should go play Call of Duty and every other twitch shooter on the market.

These are supposed to be impressive warmachines, capable of absorbing a great deal of punishment.
There are games that are much more successful than MWO is player count wise, that have much longer TTKs.

Edited by Mavairo, 08 May 2016 - 07:21 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Mavairo, on 08 May 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

TTK is too low in this game.
I'm sorry but if you think 5 second life spans under fire is OK under focus fire, you should go play Call of Duty and every other twitch shooter on the market.

These are supposed to be impressive warmachines, capable of absorbing a great deal of punishment.
There are games that are much more successful than MWO is player count wise, that have much longer TTKs.

TTK is much longer than 5 seconds unless you charge pell-mell into an enemy firing line all by your lonesome. Why should PGI nerf the game to extend TTK for the foolhardy?

In 1v1 or even 1v2, TTK is actually pretty good, right around one minute, give or take a few seconds depending on pilots, Mechs, and terrain. For 1v12, 1v8, or 1v5 though, TTK will always be short regardless of what PGI does. Shoot, it was short in those situations in the Lore even; there's plenty of precedent for short TTK in focus firing scenarios.

[Lightfoot]

MWO's mechs are to fragile. That's why we can't have normal Gauss Rifles and everyone thinks a Gauss Rifle with no charge-up would be over-powered. That leaves lasers as the best weapon because PPCs and ERPPCs are too hot for DHS 1.4 and LRMs are so heavily nerfed. If the mechs were tougher they would support the whole Battle Tech arsenal instead of being instantly killed by lasers.

[Mavairo]

Nightmare1, on 08 May 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

TTK is much longer than 5 seconds unless you charge pell-mell into an enemy firing line all by your lonesome. Why should PGI nerf the game to extend TTK for the foolhardy?

In 1v1 or even 1v2, TTK is actually pretty good, right around one minute, give or take a few seconds depending on pilots, Mechs, and terrain. For 1v12, 1v8, or 1v5 though, TTK will always be short regardless of what PGI does. Shoot, it was short in those situations in the Lore even; there's plenty of precedent for short TTK in focus firing scenarios.

That's not the only time people die in five seconds and we both know it.
All it takes is one aggressive team to push the corner, the ridge and to be the first guy they see. You're going to be insta gibbed if you are in anything less than assault mech.

I've been on both sides of the coin more than enough to know that gameplay is more complex than that. And I think or hope you have to, and have the ability to be honest with yourself.

You have no chance to defend yourself, you're just Done.
Then you get to sit, and wait for the match to be over if you want to use that mech again.
All it takes is to be on the wrong side of a corner, at the wrong moment and that's it.

You can be nestled, in cover, with your team, ready for the enemy, or conversely if you're the first guy in a coordinated push, the target gets called, and your mech is drilled into non existence in one salvo.

[JigglyMoobs]

Mavairo, on 08 May 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

TTK is too low in this game.
I'm sorry but if you think 5 second life spans under fire is OK under focus fire, you should go play Call of Duty and every other twitch shooter on the market.

These are supposed to be impressive warmachines, capable of absorbing a great deal of punishment.
There are games that are much more successful than MWO is player count wise, that have much longer TTKs.

In CoD your lifespan is 5 seconds with 1 person shooting you not 10 seconds with 6 or 12.

Mavairo, on 08 May 2016 - 07:52 PM, said:

That's not the only time people die in five seconds and we both know it.
All it takes is one aggressive team to push the corner, the ridge and to be the first guy they see. You're going to be insta gibbed if you are in anything less than assault mech.

I've been on both sides of the coin more than enough to know that gameplay is more complex than that. And I think or hope you have to, and have the ability to be honest with yourself.

You have no chance to defend yourself, you're just Done.
Then you get to sit, and wait for the match to be over if you want to use that mech again.
All it takes is to be on the wrong side of a corner, at the wrong moment and that's it.

You can be nestled, in cover, with your team, ready for the enemy, or conversely if you're the first guy in a coordinated push, the target gets called, and your mech is drilled into non existence in one salvo.

And that's as it should be, or do you think only a minute long group hug with all 12 mechs would be sufficient to send you to the great beyond?

It seems to me when people say: TTK is too short, it's really more accurate to say that "TTK-me is too short" because there sure are a lot of other people that don't feel at all like TTK is too short. For me, I live in most fights for what generally feels like a long time, unless I make MISTAKES or team makes MISTAKES that cannot be recovered from.

Well, I'm okay with being punished for MISTAKEs, because that gives this game an element of DANGER.

Now, PGI could push TTK out to so long that it really would take a minute long 12 man group hug to send you to the great beyond. But then, where is the DANGER in this game? Where is the RISK? Without RISK, do you really get as much REWARD?

And what happens to strategy and tactics if you push TTK out to minute intervals for focus fire? Where would the payoff be for the perfect flank? What could a group of lights do to disrupt the enemy rear? What does it matter if you sneak up on the enemy team in the perfect position if it takes so long to accomplish any significant damage that the enemy team could simply correct any mistake by repositioning?

So in stead of having snipers, ambushers, brawlers, sneak attacks, all out pushes, hide and poke, and the great variety of strategies and tactics, all we will ever have are brawls. Brawls at long range. Brawls at medium range. Brawls at short range. Just slowly bashing each other over the head until one mech breaks. Effectively, we'll go from armored warfare with big robots, to medieval melee with big robots.

Tactical complexity dumbed down. Excitement dumbed down. Mech variety dumbed down. Role warfare dumbed down. Infor warfare dumbed down. Strategies dumbed down.

And for what? So that people don't use the right tactics to prolong TTK can avoid paying for their mistakes?

MWO achieves some balance between thinking and fighting that's very different from the typical FPS. If you don't acknowledge that you're being disingenuous.

Ok, it's still not different enough for you. Let's make TTK longer to make it even more different. The problem with changinig one thing like TTK is that the balance we enjoy in this game is tied to many different aspects. If you make TTK significantly longer are we then going to change every other thing that the longer TTK breaks, and how long is that gonna take?

Oh, and those fast 12v12 competitive matches, do you think those guys sitting there playing are thinking, TTK too short, or are they enjoying the game?

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 08 May 2016 - 08:27 PM.

[Mavairo]

JigglyMoobs, on 08 May 2016 - 07:59 PM, said:

In CoD your lifespan is 5 seconds with 1 person shooting you not 10 seconds with 6 or 12.



And that's as it should be, or do you think only a minute long group hug with all 12 mechs would be sufficient to send you to the great beyond?

I think that a 30 ton+ warmachine, with some of the most advanced defensive systems in the universe its set within, should be able to survive being shot more than 1 time, and dying in under 15 seconds.

Or do you think it's too hard to maintain your aim, and focus fire for more than 2 seconds on a single target?

[Nightmare1]

Mavairo, on 08 May 2016 - 07:52 PM, said:

That's not the only time people die in five seconds and we both know it.
All it takes is one aggressive team to push the corner, the ridge and to be the first guy they see. You're going to be insta gibbed if you are in anything less than assault mech.

I've been on both sides of the coin more than enough to know that gameplay is more complex than that. And I think or hope you have to, and have the ability to be honest with yourself.

You have no chance to defend yourself, you're just Done.
Then you get to sit, and wait for the match to be over if you want to use that mech again.
All it takes is to be on the wrong side of a corner, at the wrong moment and that's it.

You can be nestled, in cover, with your team, ready for the enemy, or conversely if you're the first guy in a coordinated push, the target gets called, and your mech is drilled into non existence in one salvo.

You miss the point - when you have more than 4 Mechs firing at you at once, you should be insta-gibbed. That's not a problem; that's reality. It's also just plain bad luck. Folks need to quit fussing about dying via focus-firing.

In 1v1 and 1v2 combat, TTK is actually good. There's nothing that needs to be changed. You see, it's not the Mechs, Alphas, Heat, or Quirks that are the problem. It's the fact that you have focus firing. That's not something that can be fixed, nor is it something that should be fixed. If you are fighting a lot of enemies, regardless of the reason, then you shouldn't be expected to last long at all:




What you are advocating, is for pilots to be able to survive what is likely a stupid amount of incoming focus fire for no other reason than you don't think they should die that quickly because they goofed or had bad luck. I say, life isn't fair, and if you're gonna be dumb, then you gotta be tough. If you Rambo the enemy team on your own, you deserve to be one-shotted by an enemy firing line. If you're unlucky enough to be the first target focused during an enemy push, then that's just the way the ball landed. Tough break; disconnect and drop again.

I don't believe that TTK needs to be artificially lengthened simply because some players are bad or unlucky.

[Conreg]

TTK is fine. If you die too quickly on a consistent basis... try to not do that... yeah.

[Nightmare1]

Mavairo, on 08 May 2016 - 08:07 PM, said:

I think that a 30 ton+ warmachine, with some of the most advanced defensive systems in the universe its set within, should be able to survive being shot more than 1 time, and dying in under 15 seconds.

Or do you think it's too hard to maintain your aim, and focus fire for more than 2 seconds on a single target?

You don't know much of the Lore, do you? There are plenty of instances in the Lore where Mechs were one-shotted in solo combat, much less focused group combat. In fact, I would say that MWO TTK is actually pretty decent compared to a lot of the Lore's TTKs. I suggest you do your homework.

Edited by Nightmare1, 08 May 2016 - 08:12 PM.

[Mavairo]

Nightmare1, on 08 May 2016 - 08:10 PM, said:

You miss the point - when you have more than 4 Mechs firing at you at once, you should be insta-gibbed. That's not a problem; that's reality. It's also just plain bad luck. Folks need to quit fussing about dying via focus-firing.

In 1v1 and 1v2 combat, TTK is actually good. There's nothing that needs to be changed. You see, it's not the Mechs, Alphas, Heat, or Quirks that are the problem. It's the fact that you have focus firing. That's not something that can be fixed, nor is it something that should be fixed. If you are fighting a lot of enemies, regardless of the reason, then you shouldn't be expected to last long at all:




What you are advocating, is for pilots to be able to survive what is likely a stupid amount of incoming focus fire for no other reason than you don't think they should die that quickly because they goofed or had bad luck. I say, life isn't fair, and if you're gonna be dumb, then you gotta be tough. If you Rambo the enemy team on your own, you deserve to be one-shotted by an enemy firing line. If you're unlucky enough to be the first target focused during an enemy push, then that's just the way the ball landed. Tough break; disconnect and drop again.

I don't believe that TTK needs to be artificially lengthened simply because some players are bad or unlucky.

What I'm advocating is for people to actually have luck removed from the equation to some degree.
Let me put it this way, in world of warships, even if you are in a Destroyer, under fire, you have a chance to get away.

In real life naval battles, sure there are instances of ships..even battle cruisers (HMS Hood among others) being One Shot happening...but by and large ships can exchange heavy gunfire, even scoring hits and slug it out afterwards.
Sure Getting Hooded happens in WOWs..but it's pretty damn rare.

Here's a fun fact this game isn't an esport. It isn't League of Legends, or Starcraft and will never be.

There are Mechs, in BT known to be ludicrously durable, and there isn't a single one, in the Team Ques at least that you can use the term Ludicrously Durable in this game.
Using "lore" for TTK, is murky waters, and becomes subjective and replete with examples on both sides of the issue.
Look I get it, you want a mindless twitch shooter. That's fine...
I don't.
What I want is a game where TTK is somewhere between where it is right now, and world of warships.
What the devs also want from their own stated intentions is a longer TTK.

Right now, the mechs don't feel like impressive warmachines. What they feel more like, is a chubby version of masterchief without a 3 second auto heal.

[Crenue]

TTK is just fine. Problem is people just don't know how to stay together.

[IQcreditscore]

Wow........... I see an argument that has ZERO merit in all reality. IF you could 100% coordinate all teams all the time to do the right thing than ttk would be longer. Instead we have some who expect to yolo and not die rushing 10-12 mechs across an open area. No using cover just using the most direct open route. Preserving you health is meta in EVERY game online. Better players know this as is being able to kill something or cripple it as fast as possible. Also meta. Everywhere. Vision and map control are meta also but most people in qp have no awareness of this and in fw it is limited due to fatal funnel style maps. .


So why as a person who has played this game almost one month am I without fail in 90% of my matches the last one to die in a light mech (while being anywhere from 100m to 400m from the enemy most of the match) in rollover losses. I memorize where the enemy is for the most part, watch the friendly dots and know when to bug out as a light is not a flank holder, I keep track of what mechs are going down where, and always seek to make any engagement by my team a 2 on 1 or more by getting there and adding fire from 90 degrees if possible right now. I never yolo, yet will scout for my team if in an ecm mech from 200-400m ahead while always pecking at enemies dumb enough to stick their head out. In most non ecm mechs I get inital spots then stay slightly forward where friendlies can cover me if someone takes the bait but always have an "out". Even my raven 3l is a forward "bait" scout and has a very high survival time, yet lights more and hits more unique enemies than anyone on the team most of the time.



This game will never have dice rolls or turns that wait for 5 minutes while you plot the next 10 seconds of your mechs actions out. To increase ttk immensely you have to break lore (ghost heat already does). Increasing map sizes and even doubling sensor ranges wont help. Increasing armor to 10x what they are now would just be boring beyond extreme. Breaking lore by reducing damage or making laser burns far longer then ballistics and missilles will become meta. Make them have rng to balance and it's a dumbed down even further version of wot where spamming shots and hoping to hit becomes meta. Then the game dies. I doubt that lore ever considered mech pilots who would be dumb enough to yolo into 12 other mechs firing lane.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

FLINTCOIN, on 08 May 2016 - 08:50 PM, said:

Wow........... I see an argument that has ZERO merit in all reality.

hence why i reported it as troll bait cause it is

[Clownwarlord]

I disagree i think it could be a little longer.

[Alan Davion]

Mavairo, on 08 May 2016 - 08:21 PM, said:

What I'm advocating is for people to actually have luck removed from the equation to some degree.
Let me put it this way, in world of warships, even if you are in a Destroyer, under fire, you have a chance to get away.

In real life naval battles, sure there are instances of ships..even battle cruisers (HMS Hood among others) being One Shot happening...but by and large ships can exchange heavy gunfire, even scoring hits and slug it out afterwards.
Sure Getting Hooded happens in WOWs..but it's pretty damn rare.

It can actually happen quite often I find.

I recently started down the German and Russian Cruiser lines. My first 2 times out in the German Dresden... One Shotted as soon as I saw the enemy.

Sure I got a few shots into them, but quite literally the first shot that hit me, in my first two games insta-gibbed me.

Against the freaking AI no less.

The German ships can spit lead like no ones business, but God Damn they cannot take one lick of damage. The Russian ships on the other hand, they can shoot almost as fast as the Germans, and they can actually take some decent hits, but they're slower than molasses in January.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

and you should be able to one shot mechs, especially ones lighter than you, but only iof you get a headshot. Done it plenty of times in TT with my favorite headhunting dice.

[JigglyMoobs]

FLINTCOIN, on 08 May 2016 - 08:50 PM, said:

Wow........... I see an argument that has ZERO merit in all reality. IF you could 100% coordinate all teams all the time to do the right thing than ttk would be longer. Instead we have some who expect to yolo and not die rushing 10-12 mechs across an open area. No using cover just using the most direct open route. Preserving you health is meta in EVERY game online. Better players know this as is being able to kill something or cripple it as fast as possible. Also meta. Everywhere. Vision and map control are meta also but most people in qp have no awareness of this and in fw it is limited due to fatal funnel style maps. .....

[dervishx5]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 08 May 2016 - 09:03 PM, said:

hence why i reported it as troll bait cause it is

Also I know plenty of mechs in TT that can get oneshot without being the cockpit.

[Karl Streiger]

Well I'm undecided on this topic.
A longer TTK in the usual PUG game - would be like God Mode. Because even when shooting skill would be ok, its still the missing focus fire.

In Group games however - focus is an issue - and you can't hold the line.

Had a funny game in lobby with both teams in the same channel, I heard when the focus shifted on my Warhammer - in the same instant i pulled back - but still half my Mech remained in position - and only because i fled before the first shots were fired.

So TTK is to short when you can't have a line of battle and everything you need is to play skirmisher- heck you don't play Juggernaut in an Atlas - you have to play Skirmisher as well.

So in tactical terms TTK is to short - Mech should wade through fire and take a position. The amount of fire is debatable - hm have rose colored glasses - but MWLL seemed to be ok

Edited by Karl Streiger, 08 May 2016 - 11:03 PM.